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Full Version: Grappling? Slapping the cuffs on a perp?
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ShadowDragon8685
So, the rules for Grappling in SR4A are... Probably not all that terrible, as grappling rules go, but they seem to suffer from the same problem that Exalted has in that the automatic key to victory is to have a big guy on your team grapple and immobilize the target, then the rest of you get free shots at him that he can't resist.


That's not my issue, though. What I'm wondering is how in the hell you slap restraints on someone once you have him restrained? You know, grab a guy, shove him facedown in the ground, yank his arms behind him while kneeling on top of him, and force him into handcuffs.

Would it seem reasonable to make that something a grappler can automatically do in the course of the Complex Action he uses to maintain a grip on someone if he already has a Superior Position bonus from getting the target into a better grip or knocking him down? That would require the target to have failed three consecutive wrestling checks.
CanRay
*Pulls out the huge binder of grappling rules for a random, single game system* Yeah, they're not bad at all!

But we should let our badge/cammo-wearing members probably chime in on how to properly cuff someone.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 5 2012, 01:15 PM) *
But we should let our badge/camo-wearing members probably chime in on how to properly cuff someone.


Definitely a good idea. Anyone in blue/camo wanna illuminate us on best practices and procedures for applying manual restraints to someone?
StealthSigma
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 5 2012, 12:19 PM) *
So, the rules for Grappling in SR4A are... Probably not all that terrible, as grappling rules go, but they seem to suffer from the same problem that Exalted has in that the automatic key to victory is to have a big guy on your team grapple and immobilize the target, then the rest of you get free shots at him that he can't resist.


They're pretty bad. It's trivially easy for any competent melee combatant to initialize the grapple but maintaining it past one IP almost requires that you have a melee attack pool that is around 2.5x the size of the defense pool of the target of the grapple. That plays against the bit about immobilizing the target and getting free shots since your team probably has a higher initiative than the immobilized target so it goes "Your team" "grappler" "target" and the target spends his complex action to break out of the grapple, which will be much easier because of the lack of net hits to increase the threshold thus entirely negating the benefit of immobilizing the target so it can be hit. Additionally, there's the funk that comes from the fact that the grapple is caused when Str + Net Hits exceeds the target's body. Strength, being terribly easy to augment, makes it possible to successfully grapple the target while having a breakout threshold of 0 for the success test.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 5 2012, 01:28 PM) *
They're pretty bad. It's trivially easy for any competent melee combatant to initialize the grapple but maintaining it past one IP almost requires that you have a melee attack pool that is around 2.5x the size of the defense pool of the target of the grapple. That plays against the bit about immobilizing the target and getting free shots since your team probably has a higher initiative than the immobilized target so it goes "Your team" "grappler" "target" and the target spends his complex action to break out of the grapple, which will be much easier because of the lack of net hits to increase the threshold thus entirely negating the benefit of immobilizing the target so it can be hit. Additionally, there's the funk that comes from the fact that the grapple is caused when Str + Net Hits exceeds the target's body. Strength, being terribly easy to augment, makes it possible to successfully grapple the target while having a breakout threshold of 0 for the success test.


On second thought, you're right.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't change the grapple rules to be a straight opposed check where the attacker uses Strength + Unarmed Combat (Relevant Specialization,) and the defender can use his choice of Strength + Unarmed Combat (Relevant Specialization) to simply out-wrestle the attacker, or Agility + Escape Artist (Relevant Specialization) to worm out.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 5 2012, 01:34 PM) *
On second thought, you're right.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't change the grapple rules to be a straight opposed check where the attacker uses Strength + Unarmed Combat (Relevant Specialization,) and the defender can use his choice of Strength + Unarmed Combat (Relevant Specialization) to simply out-wrestle the attacker, or Agility + Escape Artist (Relevant Specialization) to worm out.


Well, once you can start getting more unarmed attacks to start upping the total net hits for the threshold, it's not bad. The big thing is that you really do need an extra unarmed attack AFTER the grapple starts but before the target can try to break it to have a chance. The Finishing Move maneuver from Arsenal might give you that attack you need but that is, IMO, debatable. It does also mean that the current grapple rules make it a closing maneuver for a combat turn. You use it once the opponent has exhausted his IPs. So if you have 3 or 4 and he has 2, with 3 you initiate it at the end of the combat turn and hope you beat him on initiative for the next turn so you can strengthen it.

It can work but it's too damn situational or requires too heavy of a character investment (heavy investment in unarmed skills as well as IPs) for a single trick to be able to use it reliably.

I would also like to point out that the rules for initiating the grapple require a melee attack while maintaining it is an unarmed attack. I mention this because I have a character with 15 dice in his blades skill with a knife and 12 unarmed. I can initiate the grapple with the knife, getting 15 dice instead of 12, but I have to move back to the 12 dice to tighten the grip.
ShadowDragon8685
I think I'm going to rewrite these rules. My group has recently got themselves a troll heavy with some unarmed skill. He should be able to reasonably restrain someone who isn't good at wrestling and isn't nearly his size. (Reach modifiers apply, right?)
StealthSigma
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 5 2012, 03:24 PM) *
I think I'm going to rewrite these rules. My group has recently got themselves a troll heavy with some unarmed skill. He should be able to reasonably restrain someone who isn't good at wrestling and isn't nearly his size. (Reach modifiers apply, right?)


Basically, here's how grappling rules work.

You make a melee attack opposed test. If you succeed at that test and your Strength + Net Hits are greater than the target's body, the grapple is initialized.

The defender may take a complex action to make a strength + unarmed combat success test with a threshold equal to the attacker's net hits. If he succeeds on this the grapple is broken.

The attacker may spend a complex action to tighten the grip via an unarmed attack test which the defender opposes. Net hits gained by the attack are added to the previous net hits to increase the threshold to break out. If the defender gets net hits then those are subtracted from the previous net hits.

At the very least, even if the grapple is broken you are wasting the defender's actions preventing him from doing anything else. However you are still dealing with the fact that it's a -1/-1 situation as far as attackers/defenders go in the total combat situation making it more valuable to the side with the numeric superiority (goes from 3:2 to 2:1).
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