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Thorguild
*Disclaimer: GM's control the economy in their worlds. I know, I know.*

So if you want a spell cast, how much can you expect to pay for it? Obviously some runners are hired for a JOB, like vaporize Mr. Mister (see what I did there?!). Even though the mage casts a Toxic Wave, he's not getting paid for the SPELL, per se.

--------------------------------
How about this:
- *BEEP* "Mr. Alazon, your 10:30 is here."
- "Thank you, Ms. Clarion. Send her in."
- "Yes, sir. I'll hold your calls."
- Very well dressed Shaman walks in. Alazon smiles and removes his coat. He rolls up his sleeve, exposing his biomonitor. "The usual, please."
- "One Healthy Glow, and then your favorite illusion spell? No problem. I'll keep it up for 10 minutes, or until your biomonitor goes red." She lays a hand on the CEO's chest and pours power into him. As she does, she goes to her happy place where everything goes 'Ka-Ching!'
---------------------------------

There's lots of ways that someone might decide to price a spell. There's force, drain, legality, and of course situational modifiers like time of day. But in general, there's probably a base price that most spells hover around. There's probably a bell curve with most of the area within a 1x to 2x range. (For instance, Sal's Spells charges X nuyen while Gustavo's Elite Emporium charges 2x.)

This also isn't discussing a lifestyle/tradition that requires the mage to cast spells for his religion/buddies/partners/the poor/etc. This is free market in a city like San Fran, Seattle, NY, etc.

So you walk into Sal's Spells and you want a Fix, a Heal, and a sustained Prophylaxis. Sal points at the menu board and says, "Cash or credstick?"

How much does he charge?

Thorguild
Thorguild
I got excited and made up Sal's Spells.

Sal lives in an upstairs apartment above his storefront on a commercial street. The building is owned by Real Estate Corp and has strict regulations about every aspect of the lease. His neighbors are all fellow craftsmen who live under the same regs. They all watch out for each other's shops; it's the Right Thing to Do. It costs $5,000/month.

He employes a Big Troll as security. He has a receptionist/bookkeeper. Each makes $5,000/month.

This gives him $15,000 in fixed expenses per month. It does not cover taxes. He needs to be bringing in at least that much per month to stay in business.

== Lifestyles ==
Sal's Spells 1 months
Comforts: Middle
Entertainment: Middle
Necessities: Middle
Neighborhood: Middle
Security: Middle
Qualities: Aspected Domain [5LP]
Friendly Neighbors [1LP]
Perfect Roommate [2LP]
Security Conscious [2LP]
Workplace [1LP]
Ambusher's Delight [-3LP]
Corporate Owned [-3LP]
Living by Committee [-2LP]
No Privacy, Matrix (Rating 1) [-1LP]
No Privacy, Physical (Rating 1) [-1LP]
Trigger-Happy Landlord [-1LP]

Thorguild
BishopMcQ
(Skill x Force) * 50 nuyen.gif for Detection, Health, and Illusion Spells
(Skill x Force) * 100 nuyen.gif for Combat or Manipulation Spells.

All costs are doubled for Permanent spells. Sustained spells are maintained for five minutes. Each additional five minutes or part thereof shall incur additional fees.

Thorguild
That's pretty good, Bishop!

But why would a Stunbolt cost more than a Night Vision? They have the same drain.

No doubt Sal would charge a lot more to go out and shoot someone with the stunbolt. But if they brought in a mad dog in a cage where he had no risk, why the premium?

Thorguild
Thanee
You do not really expect a generic formula to cover all kinds of situations, right? biggrin.gif

I would actually leave combat spells out of there completely, as the situations for those tend to be a little more complicated.

Bye
Thanee
Thorguild
QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 6 2012, 10:40 PM) *
You do not really expect a generic formula to cover all kinds of situations, right? biggrin.gif


Hi Thanee,

There's really only one situation: Sal sells spells by the seashore. Actually he slings them in his office to people who pay him. And he doesn't do anything that looks illegal.

Thorguild
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Thorguild @ Sep 6 2012, 10:51 PM) *
There's really only one situation: Sal sells spells by the seashore. Actually he slings them in his office to people who pay him. And he doesn't do anything that looks illegal.

Thorguild


Well, there's your problem, right there.

Don't you know that without the Fame positive quality, you can't make more than 4 grand a month, total, without breaking laws, and likely, legs? No wonder he's having problems making rent payment on a 5 grand shop, let alone two full-time employees who are each costing as much as the rent.
LurkerOutThere
The problem is force is mostly a mechanical concept of the game, not the game world.

The answer is of course, whatever you can get away with charging. CEO guy pays more for the spell then Shadowrunner face guy, but he likely doesn't get it cast by the same mage.
Makki
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Sep 7 2012, 05:00 AM) *
(Skill x Force) * 50 nuyen.gif for Detection, Health, and Illusion Spells
(Skill x Force) * 100 nuyen.gif for Combat or Manipulation Spells.

All costs are doubled for Permanent spells. Sustained spells are maintained for five minutes. Each additional five minutes or part thereof shall incur additional fees.



QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 7 2012, 07:55 AM) *
The problem is force is mostly a mechanical concept of the game, not the game world.


Force translates into the game world by its resulting drain.
He needs an income of roughly 30k/month. With 20 work days, that's 1500/day, Assuming 5 clients per day (he needs to rest away stun damage a lot), he gets 300 per spell. With a skill 4 Magic 4, his average drain is about 2, so I conclude this with
(Skill x Drain) x 50 nuyen.gif

He will most likely schedule simple spells early in the day and the heaviest last.
LurkerOutThere
Except by the rules he can medpack drain damage(for the record at home i've done away with this), and if he's taking stun from some of his lower tier health spells.....well lets just say it's a good thing he's a spell doc for hire.
Critias
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Sep 7 2012, 12:55 AM) *
The problem is force is mostly a mechanical concept of the game, not the game world.

Force has been referenced in-universe at times. Hermetics (and similar scientific types) absolutely have to measure the power of their spells some way, and I remember the legality of spells in previous editions was sometimes based on their Force. So yeah, it exists as an in-game concept, for sure.
LurkerOutThere
I stand corrected then, or sit as the case may be. I thought it was still one of those weird concepts that was still unquantified.
Blade
"Sure any self-appointed 'spell-slinger' can pretend they can cast a spell on you for a few nuyens, but do you really want to wake up the day after with scales all over your body? Or to have control your body during the night? And that's when he's not just a crook who tricks you into thinking he's cast a spell.

At Spellster Inc., all our magicians are graduates from the best magical schools, fully licensed to practice magic, and members of the UCAS Spellcaster Association."

Just like for any services, prices for spellcasting will vary a lot.
Makki
supply and demand determine the price as always. 1% is awakened. 0.1% is a magician. 0.01% is a capable magician of a useful tradition. 0.001% are not working in research, security or other corp fulltime jobs.
So, yes, a free lance spellcaster will make more money than Harry Dresden. Lots more.
Thanee
Do those percentages still hold true? I think there was something like that mentioned in earlier editions of Shadowrun. But is it still in SR4A?

By empiric evidence, at least 50% of the shadowrunners are awakened, after all. biggrin.gif

Bye
Thanee
Blade
QUOTE (Makki @ Sep 7 2012, 11:39 AM) *
supply and demand determine the price as always. 1% is awakened. 0.1% is a magician. 0.01% is a capable magician of a useful tradition. 0.001% are not working in research, security or other corp fulltime jobs.
So, yes, a free lance spellcaster will make more money than Harry Dresden. Lots more.


First even if the supply is low, if the demand is low enough as well, the price won't be that high. And I don't expect the demand to be so high. There aren't that many spells that can be really useful and that can't be replaced by a technological method, and there's a general mistrust of magic by the general population. People in general don't like what they don't have control over (for example they're more afraid on a plane they don't have any control over than in the car they drove to the airport, even if they've got more chances to die in a car crash than in a plane crash), and magic is one of these.

If there's a technological equivalent, then a high price for spellcasting will lead people to ignore it and go for the cheaper technological solution. And even if the "cure sickness" spell is more effective than medication, you can bet advertising will tell you otherwise.

Second, price is determined by supply and demand in a free market. Despite the appearance, the market in Shadowrun isn't exactly free. The bigger corporation do whatever they can to prevent smaller corporations and freelancers to enter their markets. Many spell formulas will be patented, and advertising will steer clients away from spellcasters not casting spells coming from "certified" formulas and, generally speaking, from spellcasters who aren't registered at their corp.

So I don't think you can say freelancer magicians make a lot of money just because there aren't many of them.
Makki
QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 7 2012, 12:11 PM) *
Do those percentages still hold true? I think there was something like that mentioned in earlier editions of Shadowrun. But is it still in SR4A?

By empiric evidence, at least 50% of the shadowrunners are awakened, after all. biggrin.gif

Bye
Thanee

I believe the numbers increased slightly over time. But I don't have them, so I meant it figuratively.

@Blade: You're right, I didn't talk about demand. But some things you can't copy with tech. On a side note, how many people do not fly, because they're too afraid, and how many people do fly, even they don't like it? It's just too good to live without.
I imagine, a rich paranoid dude would pay anything for a magician sustaining Detect Enemies for the two hours, he has to leave his house.
Or the love potion thing. How many guys wouldn't try an Increase Charisma spell for one evening. Probably a nice bachelor party gift biggrin.gif
Hiring a mage to Levitate your Couch into the 13th floor? Probably not, because you can't afford it.
Bearclaw
First: What kind of crazy assed hippy business are you running, where the secretary and the body guard are both making more than the owner?

OK, now to the conversation: It seems to me anyone who can conjure a force 6 spirit of man to find people/places/things would stay wealthy without having to do much actual work. Add in the odd 15 minute sustained Orgasm spell, which could easily go for 500 a pop, and the odd shape change which is the single most salable spell out there other than orgasm and heal, and you should be rich.
Seriously, how much would it be worth to YOU to be able to actually soar like an eagle for an hour? That's a great birthday present there.
Marwynn
You guys are giving me all sorts of ideas. The good kinds, this time.

hmm, spells... a Touch Stun spell for those who have trouble sleeping, Detox, Healthy Glow, Cure Disease, Heal, and Stabilize for emergencies. Then Trid Phantasm, Physical Mask, and of course Levitate, and maybe Fix.

Catalog would be a moneymaker too. Detect Enemies or Life as well. Not to mention the per hour charges for setting up Wards, and you got a healthy business going on.

Is "Spellsword, Inc." taken?
CrystalBlue
I've seen this kind of mentality of tech over magic all the time, even in my friends today. I've asked nearly 20 or 25 of them this question: If you could take five years to improve your body through spiritual means by (meditating, cleansing, ect) or take a five hour procedure to enhance your body through technological and genetic means...which would you do? Even If I told them that the technological aspect can't compete, long term, with the more spiritual, they still choose the technology. And we see it in SR all the time. I could have my Adept take Improved Reflexes and Increased Attribute...but that'll cost nearly 4 or 5 points out of a magic of 6. That's expensive. Then you look at technology and realize that Synaptic booster costs equivalently less per level then the adept power. Sure, you pay out the nose. But if you have access to it and can pay the money, why not?
Bearclaw

Want to be sure your wife isn't cheating? After she's asleep, let me in and I'll mind probe her. 2500, including the housecall fee.
Tired of feeling like a wuss? Prowl the woods all night as a 500 Kilo tiger with balls as big as your head. 2500, all fees included.

ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Marwynn @ Sep 7 2012, 11:06 AM) *
You guys are giving me all sorts of ideas. The good kinds, this time.

hmm, spells... a Touch Stun spell for those who have trouble sleeping, Detox, Healthy Glow, Cure Disease, Heal, and Stabilize for emergencies. Then Trid Phantasm, Physical Mask, and of course Levitate, and maybe Fix.

Catalog would be a moneymaker too. Detect Enemies or Life as well. Not to mention the per hour charges for setting up Wards, and you got a healthy business going on.

Is "Spellsword, Inc." taken?


Wow, you guys suck! That's the worst sleeping aid I've ever heard of. You might as well have a drone to prod you with a taser until you're "asleep". Where do I sign the waiver?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 7 2012, 10:08 AM) *
Wow, you guys suck! That's the worst sleeping aid I've ever heard of. You might as well have a drone to prod you with a taser until you're "asleep". Where do I sign the waiver?


Indeed... Customized Sleep Spell... Puts you to sleep and you wake up naturally. Easy Peasy.
Bearclaw
So would Sleep and Slumber Party be health or manipulation?
Marwynn
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Sep 7 2012, 01:08 PM) *
Wow, you guys suck! That's the worst sleeping aid I've ever heard of. You might as well have a drone to prod you with a taser until you're "asleep". Where do I sign the waiver?


Hah, I forgot that actually dealt damage... /facepalm

Anyway, he's already paid you at that point so...


Also, as a sub-industry - There are spells to keep you awake right? Also Nutrition provides some nourishment. So college kids near exam time could be a nice seasonal market.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Sep 7 2012, 10:21 AM) *
So would Sleep and Slumber Party be health or manipulation?


Health Spells, of course... smile.gif
Thorguild
Yes there are a lot of spell applications. In talking about mind control (Influence) once, someone said "Who would EVER pay to be mind controlled?"

I said "People who can't stay motivated to quit smoking, or go to the gym". Or diet.

Thorguild
Makki
Influence Spell therapy "You don't want to smoke". Expensive, but effective.
Marwynn
Alter Memory should also be in fairly high demand. Traumatic experiences, "mental floss", and so on.

I know you guys have had a few character concepts just by reading this thread. Care to share any? I've got one of someone who feng-shui's people's lives.
Modular Man
I've actually been thinking of giving my mage a new day job as soon as we move into a new town (half the campaign ahead, it seems).
Step 1: Find a brothel with an owner halfway independent of organized crime (to make things more easy).
Step 2: Tell him that this very mage specialises in pretty good illusion spells, particularly Physical Mask - his customers could have any woman they want!
Step 3: Once hired, aspect the background count that is likely present to the mage's tradition.

Voila, Aspected Domain for free, combined with a profitable day job. Will possibly need additional security once the business begins to flourish.
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