I've only skimmed the hacking rules, leaving me very green. My question is about having multiple hackers doing the same job.

There are very few accounts I know of where more than one hacker goes up against a target. In fact, the only one I remember is from Cyberpunk 2020 where the iconic hacker convinces everyone in the hacker bar to all hit a corp HQ at once.

They trash the place with ease and occupy until reinforcements from all over the world hit back. Then the hackers withdraw (the icon stays, hidden/invisible).

So is it a good idea to take matrix backup? Does it help at all? Would most havens fall to a group of competent hackers, where it might stand against a runner-level one?

Thorguild

Getting in would be the same difficulty, and you'd likely just let the most competent hacker of the bunch do it to avoid early detection, then when you're in, create a backdoor for the other hackers, then you can fight off just about any IC while finding, defusing and grabbing paydata, modifying logs, editing camera feeds and generally wreaking havoc. It avoids almost any time limit you would otherwise be facing with analyze agents and the like looking for hackers.

Another potential use of the multi-hack is to draw attention away from the real target and (hopefully) draw off a bunch of agent/IC/spider resources to the decoy node or at least thin them out.

I think, in general, having multiple Matrix-capable characters would be a good idea. Think of it another way. Is the Street Sam the only one who can fight? Is the Face the only one with Etiquette or Negotiation (and thus the only one who can buy gear)? No. That would be silly.

I would see a good team maybe look like this. The Face is also good at Matrix interactions and maybe tracking people. The vehicle driver is also a rigger of sorts. The B&E expert is a secondary hacker and an specialist in d/encryption and things like data bombs. The hacker, then, covers the aspects of the Matrix that aren't covered. Maybe they are good at tracking people and handling encryption, but they are also the go-to guy for hacking, Matrix combat, and other Matrix specialties.

Aside from provide additional Matrix support so the hacker isn't EVERYTHING, it also takes away that "Matrix is another game" problem. If some of the players are also active on the Matrix, the GM will have an easier time dealing with it, since the whole team won't be sitting out during hacking actions. Likewise, Matrix support is split up among the team, just like mundane supports are. The hacker character isn't getting all of the 6th world dumped on him/her and being required to interact with any tech the team comes across. By extension, this makes a hacker a specialized character.

Now, this doesn't deal with the aforementioned comment about multiple hackers being more obvious. But shadowrunners have to deal with this concern in meat world anyways. There are times when everyone goes in, guns drawn, and there are times when the team splits up to do leg work, and maybe only one person infiltrates an area. This would be the same as the Matrix. Everyone can help with leg work and certain tasks, but there will be times when the whole team won't be hacking together.

I think it depends on the number of people you are playing with. I'd say in a group of three or four, you can live without it. Fighter fights, Hacker hacks, Mage...mages I guess.
With a larger group, a little redundancy doesn't hurt. It opens up more options on how to go about runs.

I'm more interested in the game rules aspect. Would having two hackers hit the Matrix dungeon raise their chance of success? Can they cover each other?

Thorguild

I'd probably just make it a teamwork test, for simplicity's sake. But sure, they can cover each other if you want to play it out. In matrix combat friends help as well as in the real world, and if you try to sneak in, three hackers have more success chance than one, who can then create actual accounts for the others.

Yes, but two of them are more likely to be found than one. It's like any other intrusion.

having multiple hackers lets the entire team game play the matrix minigame, so that's good.

It also lets you have a more realistic approach to matrix intrusions, where there isn't just one node that needs to be hacked - having multiple hackers lets you cover entry nodes, target servers, other peripheral nodes like drones and cameras at the same time.

That is a very real concern. But as mentioned, any other stealth actions can be compromised with more characters. I see having more hackers translating directly into higher quality hackers. If the "hacker" doesn't have to take every single skill and program to do with hacking and tech use because other characters are assisting, the character in question's skills and programs are going to be at a higher rating and thus make them better hackers. Instead, possibly because of how exclusive Matrix use was in past editions, people tend to think of the hacker doing everything. This goes against the design theories of Shadowrun, in that you are far better off specializing that making a jack of all trades. This is the hacker dilemma. If instead other characters are capable of certain Matrix actions, each one becomes better at their skill set because they have more points/nuyen to go around.

I still see the value in a devoted Matrix character (just like I see the values in devoted Faces or Sams/Adepts). I just see the hacker as being able to specialize more in a handful of more complicated Matrix actions rather than being the go-to guy for everything digitized.

My group just did this today. They discovered that yes, having multiple hackers doe help!


They needed to Analyze a virus on Seattle's LTG, a task that could only be undertaken if they could see it, because it was bird-dogging an automated Matrix call from a DocWagon bracelet, which a Guest user could not do. Hacker 1 Hacked on the Fly, because the need to do this was immediate; she got herself a User account (enough to see the call,) and the LTG launched a Trace IC at her. Hacker 2 jacked in with a Guest account at the same time. Hacker 2 couldn't see the comm-call, but could see the IC.

So Hacker 2 used Spoof to continually redirect the Trace IC on her, and using a Hacking program launched another Trace IC at her. She held off both Trace IC, pushing their required thresholds up and up, while Hacker 1 did her Analysis, and managed to get a full copy of the Virus. When they jacked off, their thresholds were both farther away from the IC than they had been when they started, and they couldn't have caught up to the hackers if they'd rolled all hits on their final trace rolls.

So, yes, having two hackers does help, especially if one can kamikaze her own connection. Fortunately, they both had godlike rolls and the IC had some puny rolls in there. It was a race of extended rolls, and they won, spectacularly.

very good stroy ShadowDragon. I can see the same happening with one guy shielding the other from matrix attacks by specialising in Matrix Combat.

For a start I think a Teamwork test is very appropriate for Hacking-on-the-fly or Probing. 4 eyes see more backdoors than 2. After that, one can deal with IC and access logs, while the other does the job.

Well, there is also precedence in SR fluff of hackers cooperating: Echo Mirage team is the most significant example from the history.


However, they are not as effective as a team of flesh combatants are, as there is no ganging up bonus in cybercombat, and no diminishing defense dice for the defender. The main advantage in teaming up is thus doing different actions at the same time, communicating and coordinating efforts, and simply the fact that "damage" in cybercombat is still cumulative.

Why would there be no Diminishing Defense Pools. Getting ganged up on by IC is a trope in Shadowrun/Cyberpunk. One of the reasons that you would really WANT Multiple hackers on a system, in my opinion.

I really see no reason not to use any applicable entries from the Defense Modifiers Table for virtual or astral combat.

@Topic: Teamwork Test work well for hacking via probing, because while probing there is no risk of discovery (and thus no increased risk from having multiple people on the job). Once the hole is found one of the team goes in, silences the security, and opens the door for the rest.

Though on the probe, with a teamwork test, the target would get to use the LOWER of the Stealth Programs as its threshold for detection.

As I said, there is no chance to be detected while probing. The system can only detect the guy who actually uses the found exploit.

Except that the act of probing establishes the Exploit used, and there is no way for the teamworking hackers to withdraw prior to the Log On, Unless they are not actually performing the teamwork test. Besides, you can only receive a number of dice equal to your Skill in Teamwork Bonuses. So, teamworking the Probe is mostly irrelevant, since you never know when you will hit your threshold, and when you do, the System automaticallky makes the test for detection. As such, if you received teamwork dice, the lowest Stealth Program should apply.

Um.. no where in the description of Probing the Target does it say that you immediately Log in with the exploit you found. Why wouldn't the team have time for the others to back off once they find the entry point to let the sneakiest one get in and start opening things up for the team?

"You do not automatically gain access; you have found the chink in the armor, but have not used it yet." 4A pg 236

Except that once you have hit your threshold for the probe, you are in the system and the system gets to try and detect you.

No you are not in the system.

"Once you reach the threshold, you have found a crack in the system's defenses that you can exploit to gain access. You do not automatically gain access; you have found the chink in the armor, but have not used it yet. ...... As long as it (the exploit/chink) remains in the node, you may use a Log On action to use your hacked account."

The next paragraph goes on to say how the node gets one free Analyze+Firewall (hackers stealth) test when you first log on.

Point...
But are you willing to wait all that long? That exploit disappears when detected or system is rebooted. A Nightly Server reboot, each and every night, is standard in a lot of companies. I have never seen anyone wait once an exploit has been found. What I see typically happening is they gain the exploit, gain access, and then CREATE a legitimate account with the appropriate passwords so that they can logon with impunity. Of course, these mught also be found by the security sweep, but they do not go away on a reboot.

Often, you are. Most critical systems won't be rebooted nightly, because they are critical. You find an exploit and then you use it a few hours later, or an hour later. Or ten minutes later. It doesn't actually matter how much later it is for the purposes of being detected because only one hacker has to use it, regardless of how many hackers worked on finding it. This is another benefit of nexuses. They will allow multiple hackers to run Exploit programs at higher ratings than they might be able to buy their Response up to, with no concern of how bad their Firewall might be.

Who said anything about waiting a long time? What I proposed was merely that ONE hacker goes in with the found exploit (immediately, 2 IPs later, next morning, doesn't matter) and the others wait for him to open the door

I like the idea of one hacker desperately defusing/decrypting and downloading the paydata while the other hacker and a few agents take on the IC and spyders.

But yes, to my mind it could be beneficial to the group if the B&E guy goes to the security node and takes care of the cameras and doors and the rigger goes to the drone command node to moniter and disrupt drone deployment while the hacker goes to the R&D node to download the paydata. The main hacker could do all these 3 jobs better (well, perhaps not control the drones), but not at the same time.

To the OP, one thing you can recommend to players if you want to push matrix use is to invest in a good commlink and an Agent to do the hacking side of things for you. Type "hack-in-a-box" into the search functions for threads and advice on these closet hackers.

For 10K nuyen (2BP) a starting character can get a R4 Agent, or an R3 Agent for 3K if he is strapped for cash. Standard use programmes are cheap (Analyze, Browse and Encrypt are pretty much must-have), but the hacker programmes they will need such as Exploit, Spoof, Trace, Defuse, Decrypt, Stealth and Sniffer are costly at CharGen and can be bought in-game from a Warez source for 1/10 price (as a cracked copy that needs regular patching).

Hope you can get your players on-board with exploring the wireless world, that way you can all get accustomed to the rules together. Good luck - as people here often say, the matrix rules are a bit of a mess, so be prepared for it to take a little time to get used to.