So I ahve 400BP, and availibility 12 to work with in 2057, except we have wireless technology(All the wireless stuff from after the second crash happened earlier, or something. GM timeline changing and what not, not Surge yet though)

So I want to make a Gnome Magician, but I will admit I am pretty lost. When I got done with Attributes and saw how few BP I had left, sort of wanted to cry a little. So I decided to come here for help. As much as I would love to do Karma Gen, the GM sort of refused that so I am stuck with my limit in PB. I do not now what tradition I want to do, but I want to be able to as a mage have good endurance (One of my player's made the 'Go all Day Magician.' Comment to me.), and he mentioned I should probably grab a damage spell of some sort, and something for healing.

Other than that, and having to pick up the magician quality. I am sort of lost, I know tradition can be important mostly for second stat for drain (I have access to Street Magic, Unwired, Augmentation, Arsenal, and Runner's Companion obviously since I am a Gnome.). As I pointed out earlier, other than wireless technology anything post 2057 is out of the question. I know as a mage the Wireless wont mean much to me cybernetics wise cause that has an effect on my magic stat, and that is bad.

So any tips, stat builds, any positive qualities would be good to note. And I will be back in a few hours.

Don't play with a GM who doesn't use Karmagen.

Such a remark is nonsense

Ok BtT
So You wanna play a Gnome Mage....
First You have to decide want kind of a mage
Combat Mage,Healer, Infomage,etc
Than You have to decide for a Tradition and weather it should be a Standard or Possesion based Tradition.
Both ways have Pros and Cons.
After that You should decide weather You want to use Cyberware or not.Sometimes loosing 1 or max 2 Essencepoints to 'ware (both Bio & Cyber ) is really worth it Powerwise.

Fith a fisrt Step to a good Dance
Medicineman

Here's an example.

Gnome

B5
A3
R3
S3
C3
I4
L5 (assuming standard Mage tradition)
W6

M5
E3

That's 285 BP including Metatype.

Magician, 35 BP worth of Negative Qualities

-20 BP from Qualities (so far).

Spellcasting 6
Summoning 4
Assensing 4
Counterspelling 4

Another 72 BP for the main magic skills.

337 BP spent so far.

Let's pick 8 spells for another 24 BP.

Stunball
Powerbolt
Detect Life, Extended
Heal
Increase Reflexes
Improved Invisibility
Influence
Levitate

Fixer (C3/L2) and Talismonger (C2/L1) for Contacts and another 8 BP.

Leaves 31 BP for a few other Skills and Resources, or maybe another Positive Quality.

For 30k and another 3 BP you could have a F3 Sustaining Focus (Health) for the Increase Reflexes.

Bye
Thanee

Absolute Nonsense.

Aren't the Increase reflexes and similar spells cast on the Gnome itself going to be badly hurt by the Arcane Arrestor talent?
Otherwise the shortage of BP for mages looks typical , I cannot seem to build mages who are good at anything except being mages but that could just be me

Aren't the Increase reflexes and similar spells cast on the Gnome itself going to be badly hurt by the Arcane Arrestor talent?
Jepp. every Spell cast at the Gnome (or a Fomori f.E.) are effective with only 1/2 Strength

with an affirmative Dance
Medicineman

Only Force-based effects are halved. Inrease Reflexes has no Force-based effects.

Bye
Thanee

I always start out with a mage, and end up with a Mystic Adept with Power Foci.

Of course, there's always the troll response of "That's because you keep taking spells that aren't Stunbolt."

It's not you, it's BP-Gen.

And we had it already but oh well: Try Karmagen. Despite what some people here seem to think. It makes so many things possible.

BP just boils down to "yadda yadda GET A RATING 4 POWER FOCUS ALREADY, IT'S REALLY CHEAP HERE!111", which is indeed kind of old by now. But it's the advice given in every mage thread nevertheless, for a reason.

Thank you, this has helped me. I was having trouble but it is good o know with BP magician's are just expensive. I may tweak your advice slightly; I may low my magic skills slightly, just to get more points back for other skills.

Thanks to everyone else, while I have not finished my character it has helped me get an idea of what to do. Being newer to Shadowrun and going into a group with a few veterans was a bit intimidating but I am glad you guys are here to help.

@Thanee
The maximum hits for a spell are also based on force. Considering that increasing foci are quite hard to get higher than force 5, it is kind of a problem.

I mean, who wants to buy a force 8 sustaining foci in order to have their increased reflexes sustained.
It gets even worse once you consider BC.


But it should be mentioned that optimizing attributes is also much better in BP-Gen. Extream one trick pony characters are mostly better off in BP-Gen.

They are limited by Force, yes. But they are not an effect of the spell, so not affected by Arcane Arrester.



It's pretty clear, really.

Bye
Thanee

no its not Clear !
Some (like me) say:
The Force of the Spell limits the max Hits
so if the Spell with Force 2 hits the Arcane Arrester the Mage who cast the Spell can only add 2 Hits even if he Cast it at Farce 5 with 4 successes
some others (like You If I read your post correctly) say:
the Mage cast the Spell at Force 5 with 4 Successes ,so he can add those 4 Hits to the (Force 2) Spell
If it would be that clear there wouldn't be dozens of discussions (in english and German Boards also)

with an unclear Dance
Medicineman

Concerning the sustaining focus thing, i thought everyone just used level 1 foci and spends edge to cast the spells into it anyways?



This is precisely the wrong thing to do in BP-Gen.

That system encourages min-maxing the hardest you can (the reason being that costs are constant at char-gen but linearly more expensive in-game). That is why in BP, it's much more favorable to start with two attributes at 1 and 5 instead of 3 and 3 (provided you need both in the long term). Raising the 1 to 3 is only 25 Karma (and leaves you with 3 and 5). Raising a 3 to 5 is a much higher 45 Karma and leaves you with the exact same stats in the end.

So, to make efficient use of you BP, you need to create unbelievable hyperspecialists (Irion is right when he talks about "one-trick ponies") that bend the rules in their favor (purchase stuff that is much cheaper in BP for no reason, like the aforementioned power focus). If you don't do this, you take a major hit to your potential power. That is the reason why BP chars created with 400 BP easily range anywhere from roughly 600 to 800 Karma if you rebuild them with the "right" system (i insist ). That is a 200 Karma difference, RIGHT from the start of the game. Most characters do not earn this much Karma over the course their career AT ALL.

Gotta agree with Medicineman, in that the quote from Arcane Arrester doesn't actually say said magician can add up to 5 hits for casting a Force 5 spell even though the damage is being resisted at Force 2 instead. It's easily arguable that only up to 2 hits could be applied against the character with Arcane Arrester.

I used to think with Thanee. Now I'm on the fence.

So much of this crap would be a lot clearer if the authors included more sample examples on things like this (along with double & triple checking from some that I have seen). Kinda depends on how anti-magic the writers want gnomes/fomori/etc. to be.

Yeah, Edge surely is a bit of a loophole there.

Bye
Thanee

The point is: Force is not reduced. Only effects of the spell that are based on Force are. Hits rolled during the Spellcasting Test are not an effect of the spell.



Anything else is just wishful thinking.




When you resist the spell, you roll your dice against the hits scored on the Spellcasting Test. The Spellcasting Test has already been done at this point.

The target resists the spell as if it were Force 2, but the mage still treats it as the Force 5 spell that it is, because the actual Force of the spell is not actually reduced.



There is only one answer to the question "What is the spell's Force?".

In case of a Force 5 Stunbolt cast on a gnome, the answer is the same as when a Force 5 Stunbolt is cast on a dwarf. The answer is "5".

The gnome has nothing to do with it. It's just the mage and the Force who are relevant.

So, the hits scored on the Spellcasting Test may not exceed 5 (in this example).


It becomes even more clear, when you branch out into area spells. There is only one number of hits for one spell. You make one test, you record one number. If you cast a Force 5 Stunball against the gnome and the dwarf, and you roll 5 hits, than that's what you have - a Force 5 Stunball with 5 hits. The dwarf gets hit by a Force 5 Stunball (with 5 hits), and the gnome also gets hit by a Force 5 Stunball (with 5 hits), but he resists it as if it was a Force 2 Stunball (with 5 hits; the spell is still Force 5, only the Force-based effects - base DV in this case - are calculated as if the spell was Force 2). You cannot have two different amounts of hits. The Spellcasting Test can have only one result and only one limit for this result. And that limit is the Force of the spell - the actual Force.



That quote should be more clear now, hopefully.

It's a Force 5 spell, which allows you to score up to 5 hits on the Spellcasting Test. It is resisted as if it was a Force 2 spell (with 5 hits). The spellcaster can still add the hits he scored in the Spellcasting Test to improve the effect. The reduced Force (which isn't even actually reduced) has no effect on that.


Important note: The limit (from Force) is not how many hits you can add to the effect against the target (which would surely offer some room for this argument). The limit is how many hits you can score on the Spellcasting Test (and that leaves absolutely no room... you can score as many hits as the spell's Force, and the spell's Force is 5; it's a constant value that does not change).


And as a side note: Why would they even mention that part about adding hits? Is it something special, that you can add the hits to increase the effect of the spell? Not really, that's just standard procedure. Mentioning, that you can do so, is pointless and redundant. The existance of that part only makes sense to point out that the full hits can still be added (to the Force of the spell, which, as already mentioned, is not reduced by Arcane Arrester).

Bye
Thanee