In War!, the description of high-power rounds includes this sentence:



I can't figure out if this just means that they double the effect of recoil, or if they apply a -2 to every roll, regardless.

In other words, if I fired two semi-auto shots in a turn, with no RC, would the first one have no penalty and the second have a -2, or would the first have a -2 penalty, and the second a -3?

Thanks!

Our table uses a -2 to every roll in addition to normal recoil.

This question comes up often. The wording is a little...vague. It makes it sound as though it is a recoil modifier, but it doesn't explicitly state that it is.

I'm with Tymeaus, its just a -2 modifier. I don't allow recoil compensation to reduce/eliminate that penalty, merely because if I were to consider it a recoil penalty, I'd feel forced to interpret it as a -2 per bullet, or an effective doubling of the typical penalty, and that just gets complicated when anything other than double-tapping or short bursts are used.

There is an example of double normal recoil penalties in the book. Machine guns are affected this way and they provide an actual breakdown. Might help if you want to explore both options.

Not sure where I stand on this. On one hand the KISS philosophy screams go with the flat -2. On the other it does state it's due to recoil, and this seems to be an ambiguously worded recoil penalty. Probably RAI but still.

Thankfully none of my players have tried to get their hands on any yet.

Not suprising, considering how much HP rounds suck.

See, I would be totally cool with HP rounds doubling uncompensated recoil like shotguns and heavy weapons already do. Heck, for a HP shotty make it double and double again for quadruple uncompensated recoil. Seems perfectly reasonable.

Larger weapons suffering more recoil because of their greater power makes perfect sense. Overpowering a smaller weapon such that it suffers more recoil also makes perfect sense. But magically losing two dice to fire an oversized pistol, compared to losing none firing an assault cannon? That not only makes no sense, but is entirely inconsistant with all other ammunition and firearm rules.

~Umi

There are a few weapons that uses them well. Sniper rifles, being traditionally single shot weapons, for instance. Or that light pistol with a base damage of 7P -1 AP (Krime Stopper, Gun Heaven 2.
Parenthesis left unclosed on purpose, to destroy the rest of your day.

I like 'em just fine...
Especially if you allow combination with other ammunition types.

)
You fiend!

Well that obviously changes everything.

See, I do not see them sucking to start with, though. And when you expand the options out, they become pretty expensive, but they are an excellent option..

Definitely harder to find, but worth it, in the end.

Thanks for the input, everyone. I'm glad I'm not the only one who found the rule ambiguous.

You're not the only one. We have the same prob in german forums too.
Me, I consider the Highpower Round Modifier a Recoil Mod so it can be compensated and the first shot is totally Recoilfree.
It also makes a lot of sense (for Me) if/that you can combine High Power Rounds with other Ammo

with a High Power Dance
Medicineman

Well they requier a special mod for the gun that makes it so that the gun can't any longer use any other ammo types and their still barely better then Ap-fletchette(actually worse in most cases)

Style over Substance, I guess...

Where the style on HP-ammo

In my opinion, an HP Derringer is way more stylish than a Remington T-250 (or Colt Manhunter, or Savalette Guardian, etc, name your weapon of choice) with the various ammunition Options. Just sayin'. And if trhe HP weapon also has access to additional Ammunition Options, even More Stylish (it is not about the Damage, it is about the Style of using such an insignificant weapon to have an impact on the game).

I would says Tiffany needler loaded with AP-fletchette is much more stylish(It's made by Tiffany after all and designed to be used as a fashion accessory) and it also happens to do a lot more damage

Heh... The Tiffany Needler is a Woman's Gun, I do not need diamond shards in the inlays. Not for me...

That aside, Style is in the heart of the individual Character. What is stylish for one character may be garbage to another.





Or, to put it another way. An Athame is not just an Athame. There are probably thousands of styles for one, and yet they all have the same function. Which style that you choose to use is not the same as the one my wife chooses to use. *smile* Her's is way more stylish.

HP rounds use more powerful propellant. There is exactly zero reasons for them not to be combinable with any special bullets you may want.

Also, yeah, HP rounds are worse than AP flechettes, but they're twice cheaper, too.

Finally, when I GM, I treat the rule as "add 2 recoil to any shot". So the first SA attack in a round is at 2 recoil, the second at 3, etc. On the flipside, I allow that recoil to be compensated as normal, which the RAW apparently don't allow.

I'd be wary of mixing them with Hi-ex or similar ammo - sure the fuze is supposed to be proof against the firing, but the harder you kick the bullet out, the more likely a mishap. Especially if the ammo is old or some off-brand knockoff. Of course, there's enough potential customers who care more about the macho quatiient than safety to keep the option around.

I still can't get behind the second half of this idea. It just doesn't mesh with physics. The first shot shouldn't ever suffer any kind of recoil at all just from a physics standpoint. Recoil occurs after a round leaves the chamber. The bullet exits the barrel well before the barrel "jumps". That jumping, or recoiling, doesn't affect the flight trajectory of the fired round - but it does change the positioning of the barrel directly afterwards, which means for your next shot you need to exert effort to realign the barrel, to put your next shot back on target. When you pull the trigger on that second round, the second bullet is going to fly just as straight out of the gun as the first one did, but the difference is that this time the gun itself is out of alignment with the target.

But even putting physics aside, the basic combat rules in the corebook (the section on burst fire in particular) specifically state that the first round fired in an action phase never suffers recoil.

~Umi

Well, there are handloaders in RL...

Have you tried shooting anything with noticeable recoil? Especially when you don't expect how noticeable it'd be? You can't hit a barn door unless you know what to expect and handle the gun right to compensate for recoil.

Specific rules override general ones. Normally, as the core states, "the first shot is unmodified", the rule describing the ammo overrides that.
And if the rule goes "all shots fired from the firearm suffer -2 from recoil", I really can't see the part that says "except for the first single shot in a round".

I have.

If the firearm is sighted in and you are a good enough shot that you would have hit the target otherwise, an unexpected hot load will certainly make you shout 'n holler but by that time the round has left the barrel.

Peope who ARE expecting high recoil will sometimes tense up and throw their own aim off, but that's not actually the recoil doing that.



-k

The only reason recoil matters when firing one bullet at a time is due to the force exerted on you when firing which is significantly caused by the gases leaving the barrel. The gases do not leave the barrel until the bullet has left since the bullet acts as a stopper to create a "sealed" environment. This is the basic premise of how firearms operate.

What you're describing, as KarmaInferno stated, is a psychological response to the weapon causing you to flinch the weapon or jerk the trigger rather than pulling which offsets you aim before the bullet is even fired.

+1 to that

Next Quaestion :
the Yamaha Sakura Fubuki modded to High Power
Whats the Recoil ?

with a Dance under the Cherry Tree
Medicineman

Just replace "excess recoil" with "innate inaccuracy" or something like that.

Bye
Thanee

Hehe, I tried this once

Agreed, whole heartedly... On all counts.
Wish there was a Like/Thank Button.

Of course the psychology plays a role in that; but recoil as a force appears as soon as the round is initiated. The propellant not only pushes the bullet forward, it also creates sudden pressure upon the casing's side and rear ends. The pressure on the sides is mutually negated and can be ignored unless it rips the casing; but I see no reason for the the pressure on the rear end not to matter.

The best way to figure it out is to just sit down and play with it. Is it -2 to every shot? Does the -2 work like uncompensated recoil? Does it actually exist as a separate modifier that adds to the cumulative effect of normal recoil? Is it cumulative with itself so that every shot adds another -2?

Other than style, HP rounds and the HP chambering are a hard sell.

The math doesn't add up as written.

HP Rounds: +2DV -1AP, 20F avail, gun has to be specially modified to fire them and then cannot fire any other round, -2 pool penalty, possibly compensated with recoil but left very vague. 100nuyen per 10.

APDS: +0DV -4AP, 16F, 70nuyen per 10.

Ex-Ex: +1DV -1AP, 12F, 100nuyen per 10. Misfires on critical glitch.

SnS: 6S(e) 1/2 impact for resist, 5R, 80nuyen per 10.

Deathdealer: +1 dicepool, 16F, 450nuyen per 10.

So, SOTA ammo (deathdealer) is easier to find than HP ammo? Mathematically Ex-Ex and APDS are superior to HP as written, and obviously SnS beats it as written. It makes no real world or game balance sense as written. To further point out the idiocy of it - I can buy a Cavalier Sheriff for 500 nuyen and it has a 7R availability, yet can only fire rounds that are 20F. (There's also the Onotari Arms Rhino Hunter, a sporting rifle that is 8R (and 5500 nuyen) that is chambered for HP)) This makes no sense at all.

I say lower the availability to something reasonable - somewhere between 10 and 14, make them R rather than F, and changed them to double uncompensated recoil AND on a critical glitch you backfire or the recoil smacks you in the face for (Str/2 + 1P) resisted only with body. Leave the chambering rules as is and ditch that stupid as hell, poorly worded -2 penalty due to excessive recoil, which contradicts the main book (First shot has no recoil, ever).

You seem to presume the rules and statlines in War! and the equipment supplements are supposed to make sense. That they're maybe playtested.

It's my opinion that WAR! was written by a troupe of trained chimps overseen by a hyperactive thirteen year old Halo fan as creative director, and with a drunken, nearly-retired community college english professor with no more fucks left to give as editor and proofreader.

~Umi

Wow, most supportive review I've read yet.

What the heck kind of math are you using where +1P -1AP or -4AP is better then +2P -1AP.

It may be the kind that uses the two extra slots for HP rounds to add recoil compensation and fire at full auto. or the kind that allows a gun to change load depending on circumstances... both valid math, but neither visibly factored in. There's always more to it.

Is it just me, or would having a gun chambered for high powered rounds (you know, what with them being highly illegal and everything) set off alarm bells with corpsec or cops if it was ID'ed? even if owning and carrying the gun in question is fully legal.

"What've we got lieutenant?"

"Well we didn't find any casings, but we recovered two .45 rounds from the west wall. We're already running the ballistics, but I can tell you right now from the damage and penetration that they're a high powered variant, probably a modded Colt G2066 if I had to guess. That'd also explain the lack of casings, but it's possible the perps just cleaned up after themselves."

"You're sure it was the Colt?"

"Almost positive, but we'll know for sure in a minute or two. Why do you ask?"

"We had a similar case down at the docks last week, rounds definitely from a Colt with residue confirming electronic detonation of a high energy propellant. If this is a match I want it flagged, a city wide advisory put out, and all pertinent information shared with the corporate sector. If a potentially matching firearm shows up anywhere, even on a goddamn write up for littering, I want the owner brought in for questioning."

~Umi

Yes. There's a primary recoil. It also doesn't matter until you start talking about long ranges and/or precision shooting and it's only an issue because the barrel is typically higher than the shoulder causing an angular momentum. The primary recoil is such a miniscule effect (~0.03-0.04m/s) when the bullet leaves the barrel and is less than that during it's accelerating. Additionally, since this primary recoil occurs before the shooter even has time to react it and the effects of it are extremely predictable, a smartgun system would be more than capable of negating any marginal effect caused by primary recoil.

Shadowrun's rules don't care about primary recoil. They care about secondary recoil which is caused by the gases as they leave the muzzle which require you to take action to realign your next shot. High powered may or may not have a very real and very reasonable effect on secondary recoil.

However, let's say for the sake of argument that High Powered Round (since they give +2 damage) increase the muzzle velocity or bullet weight by roughly 33% (both effects generate the same result). That's a gross simplification when damage runs from 4-8 on average so I'm just using the median value and since HP gives AP the AP should also be factored as part of the weapon damage so the range is around 4-9 while the damage increase is 2.33. So I'll use a M16 as a sample weapon with an 84kg man using it.

The M16 fires 5.56x45mm NATO bullets. I'll say we're using the 4g bullet that has a muzzle velocity of 940m/s. A loaded M16 has a mass of 8,000g.

The rearward velocity of a normal M16 would be equal to 0.0408m/s (4g * 940m/s = 92,000g * x).
The HP equivalent would have a velocity of 1250m/s so the rearward velocity would be 0.0543m/s (4g * 1250m/s = 92,000 * x).

You're suggesting that at 0.0408m/s of primary recoil there is no penalty, but adding just 0.0135m/s to the primary recoil would justify a -2 penalty. Note that this increase is smaller for weapons with lower muzzle velocities and some handguns would have a high powered muzzle velocity that is less than the muzzle velocity of a sniper rifle. With the penalty being flat and not based on weapon type, there's no reason that this should be a penalty caused by primary recoil.

The math where the +2P -1AP provides a magical -2 dice pool that as written is not reduced by RC. As written I'd rather use Ex-Ex (or SnS) for most targets and APDS for spirit work. That -2 dice is potentially costing you another hit that would up your DV anyway.

"But sir! We are the corporate sector!" *blank stare*

I'm suggesting that the RAW states you take a -2 penalty whenever you're firing this gun, flat out. And yeah, there is a (kinda) feasible physical explanation; so it's not super-magic altogether.

This. HP rounds are as unusable as about anything else from War!.

The question is not about what the rules say.

The question is about whether the rules are stupid.




-k

There was any doubt that they were stupid?

We're obvously not going to get an errata or update to them (Also, poor writing - GH2 include all the information necessary to use the battle rifles presented in them but not the HP ammo, if you don't own WAR!)

I've seen some decent house rules to them and I don't necessarily prefer mine to them, I merely like having options open.

I'd love to have a character with a fraggin huge hand cannon, but when as writen nobody can accurately fire one... why bother?

Losing 2 dice from 20 plus doesn't exactly stop one form hitting think with a gun, heck losing that from a 10+ pool doesn't either.

If you presume that -AP is worth 0.33 damage, then a change of 1 to dice rolls is also worth 0.33. You could also consider either option worth 0.25 damage if you go by buying hits ratio of 4:1 instead of 3:1 but that only favors HP ammunition.

High Power, as a +2 Damage, -1 AP, -2 Dice is effectively a +1.66 damage option or a +1.75 damage with hit buying.
EX-Ex with +1 damage, -1 AP is effectively +1.33 damage or +1.25 with hit buying.
APDS with +0 damage, -4 AP is effectively +1.33 damage or +1 with hit buying.

--



There is no kinda feasible physical explanation for it. Since recoil reductions do not apply then this must be primary recoil and not secondary. The only way for this to even be kind of feasible would require the force of the round to at least double (since we're talking propellant that means the muzzle velocity is changing and not the bullet weight) which should in fact bestow FAR greater than a +2 DV. Functionally, the damage value of a weapon is a representation of the approximate amount of force that is being carried by the bullet. There's absolutely no reason why an effect which increases primary recoil by about 33% generates a far greater penalty from a much smaller effect when compared against the recoil sustained from a simple set of two semi-automatic attacks which create a FAR larger real recoil effect. The problem then becomes that the secondary recoil effect should be even greater if there's a primary recoil effect. So for this to be kinda feasible from a physical viewpoint (and that's completely neglecting whether propellant can be found to create such a velocity from a firearm) we should be seeing assault rifles that do ~10-11P/-2AP while sniper rifles should be doing around 14-15P/-6AP just to justify the -2 flat penalty from primary recoil and secondary recoil would be so massive the weapon couldn't be fired as anything OTHER than one shot a round.

Why is it that when an honest question comes up regarding something from that book, that the majority of responses always seem to be the people who absolutely hate the book or the company crap-talking about one or the other? While I disagree with the -2 of the ammo not being able to be compensated for, it's how the rules for it work, and I will abide by it without trash-talking the entire fraggin book and the company. And no, the stuff in the War! book is NOT unusable. It's not even truly "imbalanced" unless your idea of "balance" is entirely derived from MMOs or DnD 4th, IMO.

My new sniper rifle fires one of these.

I was planning to hunt MBT crews with it. Some troll out there will be very happy.

<edit> Welcome to Dumpshock. We have high expectations for our game and wish the developers did at times as well. Although to be fair since the War! Fiasco the quality has improved quite a bit.

I actually really enjoy some of the vehicle accessory options. I have a Thundercloud Morgan with signature masking that I took the chameleon and insulated netting netting. As far as I'm concerned, it would take some very, very nice sensors to spot that vehicle at rest.

The problem, I believe, is that people look at the stuff in WAR! and think it's way too powerful for a typical shadowrun. They might just be right. I suspect that these very same people aren't familiar or acclimatized to scenario specific sourcebooks and erroneously believe that every sourcebook is suitable for the standard game.

Oh come now, when even the Shadowtalk is shit-talking the HP ammo because they want to actually hit something other than themselves in the face with said gun... like this

But yes, War! was intended for people who want to play in a mercenary campaign rather than a shadow running one. This is fine and all, it doesn't mean the book was up to snuff in quality (See Fields of Fire, SR2). Also, shadowrunners routinely find uses for military grade tech, and HP rounds are hardly military grade.

<edit>
Also, Max, not everyone runs around with 20+ dice for shooting. I'll make a quick example with a char gen legal sam.

Agi 5 (7 - muscle toner)
(Firearm skill of choice) 5 (1 reflex recorder)(+2 specialization)(+2 Smartlink)
Giving us a grand total of 7 + 6 (+4) for 17. Provided that - you aren't moving and there is no visibility or range impairment. Now, add in some running, target in cover, and medium range and that additional -2 adds up.

Now, if either RC applied to it and/or the first shot was unaffected by the penalty, the ammo becomes much more viable, aside for that extra special silly 20F availability.

Did you read that last part at all?(also i really hope your not trying to imply that you cant get 20+ out of chargen with that example you titled "char gen legal sam")

Also i'm not arguing its viability, after all as my first posts say i think its sucks(but not really because the -2 dice part).