Hey Guys, I'm quite new to Shadowrun and have really only been playing for about 6 months, but it strikes me that a lot of the technology in SR 2072 is more or less similar in kind to what we see now. For example, I see a lot of reference to cyberdecks, which from what I can tell were more or less future laptops, but as people in real life have switched increasingly to handheld wireless devices (mobile/cell phones and tablets, etc) so the the post Crash 2.0 world has switched to using similar devices (Commlinks). Obviously these all have a good dash of sci-fi in them, and are much more advanced than what we actually have, but in kind there is a connection there. Drones are another good example of this, from what I can tell, as they have become more popular in modern warfare, so have they become much more important in the 6th World.

So my question is, assuming that SR 5e is going to happen at some point (I have no idea whether it will or not) and assuming that it happens somewhere between 5-15 years from now, what major technologies can you see on the horizon for us that will translate over to Shadowrun as being massively important? It's kind of hard to predict the Next Big Thing, but I'm mostly just curious to see what people come up with as a thought experiment.

As an example, I read an article recently about animal uplift, and how augmenting animal intelligence is starting to look like something we may be able to do in the mid-future. Obviously there are a lot of ethical implications here, and it may be something that is referenced in an SR sourcebook that I haven't read already. But if it does become popular, I can see augmented intelligence animals suddenly becoming a force, in greater numbers than the sort of awakened/sapient critters that we already see.

There will be a lot more Nanotech available and common for everyone.
Also flying cars!

and Hoverboards

HougH!
Medicineman

More space travel and colonization/exploitation of bodies elsewhere in the solar system, opening up the possibility of off-Earth runs.

Quantum Computing.

Not necessarily the NEXT big thing, but certainly looking like the biggest thing on the horizon. Ofcourse, most people think cracking that nut will fast track us to singularity, and then we get into transhumanism rather than cyberpunk. It would be pretty hard to justify the core concepts of ShadowRun in a setting with Quantum Computers about the place. So I guess just play Eclipse Phase at that point.

More magic.

I personally am very partial to the Earthdawn setting and mythos, and the idea of the natural ambient mana levels of the universe / the local dimension / reality flowing akin to a massive cosmic tide. Where Earthdawn dealt with an era of ebbing magic in the wake of apocalyptically high levels of mana, "SR 2090" could deal with the beginnings of the long reverse trend, slowly flooding the world with magical energy after millenia of magical "drought", blurring the lines ever more between the mundane and the fantastic.

To be honest, this notion is already implied in SR. Magic returned to the world in 2012, but it was limited at first. For a decent chunk of time there was no such thing as Orks or Trolls, for example, until Goblinization occured. Then came SURGE and changelings even further down the road. As more time passed, more magic seeped into the world. More and new dragons came into play, for example. Heck, even some magically induced dimensional rifts (which is THE core concept of Earthdawn) came into being, via events such as Dunkelzhan's death.

My ideal concept of "SR 2090" would have the barriers between worlds starting to blur and fade. More people would be awakening, the physical-astral barriers would start to be bent or broken in ways, and magic as a whole would not only become more common and more powerful, but also less mutually exclusive. Manatech research would make great strides, thaumaturgy would evolve drastically, and much of what metahumanity would assume is merely the product of new insights into the nature of magic would actually be attributeable to genuinely evolving metaphysics and alterations in reality itself. People would not only be able to do more with magic because they understand more about it, but the nature of magic itself would be slowly becoming more robust and varied - things that were literally physically impossible 20 years before would end up not just doable, but in some cases might even become the new norm.

And perhaps most dramatically of all, magic would end up suffusing everything metahumanity deals in with a form of "life". Things and objects and concepts - including technology, government, culture, and more - would start to become actually "alive". Instead of just having Sapient AIs, you could actually get rudimentary "living" machines. Corporations could become more than just organized collectives of individuals, they could actually start to develop collective consciousness, becoming aggregate entities, unified composite organisms which end up being more than just the logistical sums of their constituent parts. Memes and social trends could take on lives of their own, literally. Sufficiently influential and well known figures could become actual Legends - perhaps even literally becoming larger than life, or at least semi-immortal.

The possibilities are immense. More metatypes and metavariants (T'skrang! T'skrang!!!), more paracritters and natural threats, more supernatural influences on the physical world, more spirits, more magical threats (the Horrors are still out there...), more overall epic and awesome stuff (in the classical senses of the words), including events and characters and situations and everything.

~Umi

Maybe more essence friendly cybernetics, with magicians aiding in implantation by keeping a subject's aura more intact as the foreign crap is crammed into the body.

Also slightly more common laser weapons, and some improvements in other technologies as well. Maybe a greater colonized presence on the moon, and the week long cruise around the moon for that vacation getaway.

And don't forget about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, and all that. Enough industrial sabotage among those involved can also pose a hindrance to technological advancement.

Hopefully not too much change... or we end up doing Shadowtrek or something...

Bye
Thanee

That's some really great stuff guys, I'm enjoying seeing what people come up with. The space travel in particular is one I could definitely see happening (I've read about Google making plans to bring an asteroid to earth at some point in the next 20+ years that's platinum rich IIRC, maybe things like that?). Also what about Quantum computing do you think is incompatible with the setting, DuckEggBlue? I always assumed that it already existed in play (again I'm not an expert on the fluff or anything). I always kind of assumed that was why hacking and decryption could be done so quickly and easily, without much by way of social engineering necessarily.

Umidori's post, though not exactly what I was after, is quite interesting. One question I would ask though (and I'm only trying to promote conversation here): If you blur the lines between magic and technology too much, do you start to lose some of the essence of Shadowrun? One of the things I've always liked about Shadowrun is that the lines between magic and tech are quite stark. The exist in the same world, but not particularly easily. If you start seeing such a close bond between the two elements, will that not be a huge change to the feel of the setting, and not just an incremental update?

It's not the IT applications, it's the raw power driving tech and research. Basically I think quantum computing will put things on the fast track to a transhumanist setting, and as different as ShadowRun now is to 80's cyberpunk, I think it's still cyberpunk. So not imcompatible as such, but more pushing the setting forward to a point where it's no longer recognisable as SR.

Maybe I'm just being optimistic in thinking the rapid scientific advancements that should come following quantum computing would make SR's brand of dystopia a distinctly unlikely thing (not that I'm discounting another kind of dystopia). Too hard for Megacorps to control and capitalise on things when research and information moves so quickly and freely. Assuming MegaCorps even exist.

The running gag amongst my friends is that the headline the day after someone cracks quantum computing will be: Scientist Wins at Stock Market, Says "End Boss Wasn't That Hard"

Anything expressable as an array, like the Stock Market can be 'solved' pretty easily. The Nano Second Buyout was a BIG deal in SR, if quantum computing is ubiquitous, it could theorhetically be done all the time, by anyone. It would break the system. Something else would come up but the setting is largely an extrapolation of the financial system we have now, and I'm not sure how things would work after quantum computing breaks the stock market with the involvement of massive government regulation, let alone without it, like in SR.

All with a grain of salt though, I'm just a dumb guy who hangs out with Physicists and Senior IT professionals (who dropped out of physics), my understanding of things can sometimes be skewed.

I want cyberware to be cool and useful again. Perhaps a bit more essence friendly just so you can cram in more stuff. Magical implants would be cool, perhaps not enough to make you a Mage but a symbiote could provide Critter powers and the like.

Also, more magitech stuff. Imagine a commlink that runs on magic and can activate quickened spells or something. Since it's Shadowrun, it's probably made from the stuff of spirits.

And more Earthdawn races.

Chugga: Your post was great, because when people say that cyberdecks were 2050's tech and wireless matrix access is 2070's, I think it's actually 1990's. Here's a cool list for you to check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emerging_technologies

DuckEggBlue Omega: Some people want power over others. Just think conspiratorially and you will see how powerful people hell bent on remaining powerful in the wake of vast technological change would stop and nothing. Some of them would want to kill off as many useless eaters as possible.

Umidori, SpellBinder, Marwynn: Great stuff! When Shadowrun was being developed, 2012 was a quarter century away. Now 2012 is here, and I would like for future editions to break continuity. The new awakening date should be about 20 or so years from the release of the new edition, with game time being about 60 years in the future.

It would make sense that if instead of an ebb and flow like a tide, it was more like a buildup of mana in the astral plane over the millenia that broke like a dam. I think magic is overpowered as it is, and it would make sense that the first to awaken in the "broken dam" scenario would be super powerful (magicians in 1st ed started with 6 magic), and the keepers of the old magical traditions would emerge as very highly powerful as well. But, over time, things would normalize and it would be common to have people with lower amounts of magic, and it would be more subtle.

About the shadowrun magic vs. tech trope, a way to explain it could be that right at the awakening, there simply didn't exist spells that affected technological things well because the spells were created in a magical era in the distant past. These days, more magic has been crafted to work with technology. For example, the Invisibility spell in 1st ed only affected people. Later, an Improved Invisibility was developed to get past cameras.

I like the idea of people just touched with a bit of magic. I'm working on a set of character generation houserules that simplifies and combines some rules in 4th ed and Digital Grimoire to allow easier creation of a character that, for example, just astrally perceives or projects, and can be like the occult investigator archetype without the spells or conjuring.

Well I don't want an SR5 coming about any time soon, but if it were to come about, I don't think any more technological advancements are really needed. What I do think is greatly needed, in my opinion, is for the whole "dystopia" thing to be wadded up and thrown in the toilet with a bowel movement where it belongs in my view.

But is it really Cyberpunk at that point? What does it become? Maybe Transhumanism (which we are already headed towards anyways, I think). *shrug*

Either way, in my opinion, it would be much improved, because from what I can tell, it seems to me that the "dystopia" drek is just used as an excuse for not giving the PCs acceptably high pay rates.

Heh... When you are a little fish (and Shadowrunners, even Prime Runners, are nothing but little fish), you cannot expect to get the pay of The Big Boys.

Besides... High Pay Rates are in the eye of the Beholder. As we have seen, what one individual claims as High Pay another sees as nothing but a pittance. *shrug*

Shadowrun has very few large banks and investment companies. Megacorporations are diversified conglomerates (no "conglomerate discount" here), some of them even mixing manufacturing and banking activities. They have small but stable number of individual shareholders, implying there is little to none traded stock on the market. Megacorps vertical integration would also limits the size of the commodity market for raw materials.

If Shadowrun setting is an extrapolation of the financial system we have now, it is one made mostly by people with a superficial knowledge of it. SR is actually a lot closer to the financial system as it existed during the 19th century.

See, Shadowrun, as a game, is in an interesting position. On one hand, it is natural for technology to evolve through time. On the other hand. Shadowrun is a cyberpunk game at heart, not a transhuman one, though as has been said, it has wandered more towards the latter. I think shadowrun has to stay a cyberpunk game, which means technology can evolve, but it will be a) unfairly distributed b) good in design, but badly used c) basically serve the Haves to crush the Have Nots

So the exact goo-gahs that come out as time evolves are almost irrelevant. Plus ça change, plus c'est pareil.

You mean other than cities made of living coral/wood, nanites that can build skyscrapers in a few days, and clean, limitless energy through mana-based power plants?

Most of SR5's advances should be social. But if that happens then we can't play Shadowrun anymore.

For technology on the surface (i.e. what will be readily seen), I think more non-AR holograms will be used, and some equivalent to 3d printing will become commonplace (with feedstock for it heavily controlled, and the corps having ones that can print nano-scale).

I'd imagine something like in Stephenson's Diamond Age from technological and sociological points of view.
Policlubs becoming more commonplace and further balkanized countries. Maybe countries in the size of city blocks with allegiance to certain policlubs.
I don't see many more ED connections, as this has been neatly severed in the fluff, but I do see more magical equipment becoming commonplace, even usable by mundanes.

Just a few thoughts, not really worked out, though

5th Edition is long overdue, but I expect it to be more like SR2 was to the original than a big leap in the setting...although that would amount to errata and CGL doesn't do errata, so maybe you are right and it will be a whole new setting

Would all the artwork be replaced with photography of barbie dolls in army costumes?



You know, I would love to see a Firefly-esque setting where the Core Worlds are advanced as you might think the 2090s would be, all solidly post-human and high magic, but the outer planets considerably less so being the "slums" of that era and where Runners still ply their trade.

That way you could have the dystopian cyberpunk areas with bits of post-cyberpunk showing up. And spaceships.



-k

Wait, developed inner worlds, slummy outer worlds? So basically any one of the Gundam animes?

~Umi

Halinn got to this before me...

Small-Scale Fabrication!

This field is so new, and so awesome in potential, that people don't even have common language to describe it. Right now most people probably don't even know it exists. A lot know about "3-d printers", but think that they can only use extrudable plastics. There are a huge variety of devices that can create objects out of a small amount of materials. So you have your Titanium Lathe, your Plastic Extruder (3-d printer), your Wood Carver, etc. The conceptual step that no one has gotten (cheap, commercial, packaged) right yet is for a single box that takes in any material on one end, and spits out finished products on the other.

In the magi-tech world of 2070+ these things could feasibly be in every home. Creating items, even complex ones, would be a matter of adding:
-design spec
-raw materials
-power
-time

There are lots of legal and social issues that will come up with this, and people are already talking about what's going to happen with the regulations. One thing that's clear is that this could disrupt our current economic models in ways that are impossible to guess.

For SR purposes, if you got a general-purposes fabrication unit, and the things listed above, then your Availability score on any device is ZERO. Your cost would be the total of those items. And your UNIT COST goes down each time you make another, since you already have the design.

The shopping part of the run would go like this:
"We need this laundry list of items, and we can't even START without a dozen surveillance drones."
"I have the stock on hand for the drones; they'll be done in 4 hours. The rest of this stuff will have to wait until Home Depot opens at 7:00 AM. Figure we are ready to go by noon. Call it tea-time if we stop for breakfast and lunch."

Thorguild

Why am I thinking of Shinra now? I'd rather not have a district of Seattle dropped on top of any slums, than you.

Which is why I hate Shadowrun's nanomagic with a passion: The way it is presented (can do everything, costs nothing, available to everyone) it would logically uproot the whole universe.

Star Trek had replicators and they didn't have any trouble with logic.

Ok! Ok! Sorry. Trolling is bad. I just couldn't help it.

A grim future for humanity has been talked about for ages. Look at the Book of Revelation, Max Weber, and George Orwell for just a few examples. Readers of this forum might be interested in researching Zbigniew Brzezinski and the technetronic era.

I envision a large percentage of people kept relatively stupid through years of corporate "schooling", a continuous stream of propaganda from the corporate media, loads of cheap consumer goods that cost almost nothing to mass-produce, and nonstop entertainment and amusement. That's what the corps have learned will keep the people from rising against them, despite their lousy living conditions.

Meanwhile, the 10% that manage things and keep everybody in line enjoy many benefits and can live in much greater comfort. The 1% at the very top lead lives of great luxury. The insignificant percentage of elites in the world have nearly god-like existences, cooperating to ensure they remain in control, yet competing for increased wealth and power.

I imagine a world where corporations tell governments what the laws are going to be. Media companies today want computers that are physically incapable of copying media. In the future of Shadowrun, those corps would get what they want. In fact, I see a cyberdeck as a home-assembled, illegal device used primarily to get around the safeguards built into the Matrix. But, that's the world according to me, and not what's been actually written in canon Shadowrun material.

That's actually a really cool thought. As I understand it, this sort of fabrication already exists in Shadowrun, but is sort of a fringe technology. I was just reading an article this morning about how a retail store for 3d Printers has just opened in California. Also, in the Wikipedia article linked upthread about upcoming technologies, I noticed that 3d Printers are listed as upcoming, and then two other technologies right below that one threaten to make them obsolete already, which suggests to me that the field is moving extremely quickly.

As to whether it's impossible to guess what could happen with the advent of this sort of small scale fabrication becoming popular, I wonder if we could look at what's happening to the entertainment industry at the moment, and the issues it's experiencing with piracy. Once all products are essentially just data that can be copied and sent over the internet at will, all sorts of industries are going to start experiencing similar problems. Shadowrun sidesteps this issue with software by saying that it degrades without constant patching, but this isn't a feasible way to handle similar issues with physical products.

Welcome to the world of tomorrow, today. That's pretty much where we are now.

On the Shadowrun side of things, I could see more nations backed by Awakened mojo/firepower or even based entirely on the amount of mojo they could swing.

Here's another link. This one is about predictions various people have made.

Timeline of the future in forecasts

Another very cool list, Shemhazai. I haven't yet had a chance to read it, however, do you know the statistics on how accurate these sorts of forecasts are? It seems to me that incremental change should be relatively easy to forecast, while the big, earthshaking innovations would be more difficult. I don't suppose you know where I could find information on past predictions from similar sources and how they've held up?

I think quite a bit of that is or was canon. I am less sure about the last paragraph, but it sounds reasonable to add if nothing else.

The last paragraph is what used to separate cyberdecks from terminals: The stealth chips to illegally surf the matrix without a datatrail

Past a critical mass of diffusion, the only reliable mean would be to try to clamp on the diffusion of designs and critical rare raw materials - but even the raw materials side can be problematic because if a nanoforge can build just about naything, it's likely it can do the reverse and dismantle almost anything back into it's raw materials, ready to be used to build something else. Possibly up to turning an embarassing corpse into Kobe beef.... The only other check would pe power - no matter how you're doing it, rearranging matter in new patterns uses energy. Making sure households have only a rationed supply of it will rstrict what the individual can do (though the 'forges get widespread enough, even very small indivudal batches will add up into impressive numbers very soon)

Good options for a shadowmarket in small-scale nanoforged items, then. Wageslave models would come with limited software, and access to only a few proprietary designs (that call for a special brand of feedstock to function, of course), but some custom programming and a bit of soldering and such to get around hardwired limitations and enterprising individuals could do lots of fun things.

No idea. I literally just found that list and posted it here.

There are a number of futurists out there that have made predictions--people like Ray Kurzweil, Michio Kaku and the like. Some people are simply experts on a topic or have access to supposedly better than average information (for example, regarding future geopolitical events). For example, I read that virtually all forms of deafness may be eradicated within 50 years.

I know that there have been countless predictions that have turned out to be completely false. No surprise there. I would just use things like that as an idea source and pick the ones that make most sense in the world you want to create.

Not trolling this is a perfectly valid topic in this thread.

ST:tNG is a pretty good example of a post-needs society which is where SR is headed with the new technology presented in 4th edition. The issue is that the logical societal impact of the new technology makes it such that SR is no longer SR so you can't play it anymore (this is part of why I ran screaming back to SR3).

Between nanoforges and cheap, unlimited data makes existing power structures obsolete. Sure the corporations could try to hold on to power but that would rapidly collapse into war. So SR5 becomes a war game as opposed to a shadowrun game. Alternatively the corporations could just bow to to societal pressure and release their grip in which case SR becomes ST:tNG. Finally the world could transition to some sort of known unknown power structures in which case we have again left SR and moved into an alternate sci-fi setting.

The logical problem is that any world in which the SR technological developments exist is essentially not an SR world.

Not since War!. All you need is a mage with Capacitor as a spell. I'm pretty sure that's the one. Unlimited power.

Alternatively you can recreate power plants with spells or spirits. A fire spirit is a pretty good replacement for nuclear rods, coal, or wood. Just find a free spirit that is happy to provide heat for you in exchange for something and you're good to go. How about a water spirit to cast movement on the water flowing through a water mill? You could potentially generate as much power as a hydroelectric dam without having to disrupt the water as much.

The scarcity then becomes how damaging this is to the manasphere. Guarantee you it is still safer than any modern methods.

Which you could do in any edition, honestly.

Are you familiar with the history of earth in ST:TNG? It's simply terrible.

I don't think the tech in Shadowrun even comes close to touching that of Star Trek. Faster than light starships? Replicators? Phasers/Photon Torpedoes/Disruptors? Transporters? Holodecks? Highly futuristic medical tech? Tricorders? The list goes on.

Think of Shadowrun as part of a terrible past leading up to a bright future. Technology has a dark side. Some people might come to use it to help themselves at the expense of others.

Errata (as published in the German version) limits that to palm-sized devices


What mana spikes from large-scale magic (ab-)use bring is far worse than any reactor accident...



In general I agree with you however, nanotech would logically lead to a clean, prosperous world where Picard brings peace and understanding to everyone

This issue has me wondering, where does SR go from here? We're nearly to the 22nd century, we're on the precipice of truly radical change in the structures of power, presumably the horrors grow closer and closer, and metahumanity (at least to my eyes) looks poised to bootstrap itself into something post(meta)human. I suppose the sixth world could end up looking something like The Fifth Element, but would that be Shadowrun? We could still be pulling runs in the meat, exploits on the matrix, and crazy-trippy-voodoo-eldritch-vision-things(©) in the Astral plane, sure, but I wonder if somewhere, along the crazy journey, it has become something different. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, mind you.

Definitely transhumanism and a bit more grimdark due to more bizarre magics are discovered.

Since we are only talking about 20 years...

With the emergence of Technomancers and cheap computing there is no reason for hackers and normal people to blend the worlds literally into one.

1. Hackers would not need to go 'into' the matrix but area always there.
2. Cyberlimbs WOULD be extremely cheap and mass produced but still cost a lot of essence (alleviated by being dirt cheap).
3. Regular Guns wouldn't change much in 20 years.
4. Energy weapons becomes more efficient and concealable as batteries improve - Cheaper laser weapons.
5. Phasers - Air ionizing laser beams that transport electricity, no more wires.
6. Magician and Adept are starting to blend a bit more as more knowledge is added. Magicians adepts are starting to emerge who can summon spirits, use spells and adept powers, becoming even more unbound.
7. Magical oddities emerge like Elementalist, Shapers/Matter manipulators.
8. Non-Toxic variants of certain traditions emerge (nuclear physicists fire magicians who summon radiation spirits)
9. Expanded colony on the moon with launchpads for further exploration, mars base expanded.
10. Two cairns are discovered deep underground by the Draco Foundation in Europe and North America containing a mysterious rock people as they were breached by deep core mining operations.
11. A metahuman lizard tribe is discovered deep in the amazon rainforest living in river settlements.
12. Alternate food source for Ghouls discovered.
13. Ghouls start farms for feral ghouls to harvest the meat for non-feral ghouls
14. PETA objects to Ghoul food initiative.
15. Ghouls ask them to shut up or hop in the stew themselves.
16. Nanoforges run rampant so you now usually buy the blueprint and print gear yourself instead of tracking down the gear

Mystic Adepts already exist. But perhaps something like "Spirits, Spells, Powers, Astral Projection - pick two."

I know, I mean one that was both full adept and magician with none of the drawbacks.

On the small-scale fab front: http://fabbaloo.com/blog/2012/9/26/the-inc...ml#.UGN2jE3A_K1

The detail (resolution) on these is amazing, and the print is done in resin vs. plastic. Different material; different properties.

While those "nano-forges" and matter restructuring ideas are still sci-fantasy, the real world takes steps towards Anywhere-Anytime fabrication. Material, power, program-spec, and one of these coming devices, and you never need to go to Wal-Mart again.

Thorguild