Ok, this character is built pretty much on the following facts:
1) Logic and Agility between them cover about 70% of all skills, including most of the common use skills.
2) It's cheaper to learn new skills in play than it is to buy them in BPgen.
3) It's cheaper to buy high attributes in BPgen than it is to increase them during play.
4) The -1 penalty for defaulting isn't really that bad.

So:
Elf.
Soft max agility and logic. (low reaction because it's easy to improve with ware and maybe low strength)
Genetic optimization for agility.
surge for improved agility.
Rating 4 muscle toner.
Superthyroid gland.
This should give us an agility score of 13
Rating 2 cerebral boosters. (not restricted gear)
Rating 2 neumonic enhancers
rating 2 nanohive.
rating 3 +logicskill nanites.
rating 3 (other nanites, possibly memory booster or learning nanites)

That gives us 12 dice defaulting on Agility skills, 9 dice defaulting on logic skills (11 on logic based knowledge skills), with enough resources left over to build up specialties/edge/contacts/whatever.

Or, do that and add several ranks of important skills. This is basically what everyone *does* do, AFAIK. It depends a fair bit on BP/karma, whether you need that money for other things at chargen, etc.

Yera, that's what every *munchkin* does. If you honestly believe that the overwhelming norm is to soft-cap your attributes, then you and I must play with very different players with very different goals for their characters.

~Umi

*shrug* Soft-capping is just about the mildest possible thing they could do, so I'm not about to get mad at anyone for it. Like I said, every player is aware that Attributes are great in the SR4 system.

My concept, personality wise, was one of those annoying people who seem to be able to be effortlessly good at everything they do...
so they think that they're good enough to try their hand at shadowrunning. Their rapid post-creation skill development comes from them suddenly realizing that they've jumped in the deep end and that yes, they can actually be out of their depth! (the horror).
If I do ever play this character they're going to be a SINner former highschool Jock/Cheerleader (so some social skills and maybe athletics group 1 or something), playing up the arrogant elf bit... until the s*** hits the fan and they realize "Oh, S***! Actually putting hard work and training into something might not be such a waste of time after all!"

EDIT: Oh, and I'll be saving up Karma to pick up the trust fund quality in-game when they get stuff left to them by filthy rich relatives. They'll keep running anyway, for kicks (which is probably why they took up running in the first place).

All I can think of in response to this thread is "All hat, no cattle."

While the -1 isn't that much, that effective +2 for a single rank makes it hard not to pick up at least all skill groups at 1.

That, my friend, is the entire point

The temptation is there, but I reckon it'll be far more fun to watch then go in all over-confident and then get their asses handed to them because they're totally out of their league. If they survive then they mature a bit, and with luck getting their bacon hauled out of the fire by the 'lesser races' will give them the chance to grow past their preconceptions.

well, mind you its rare that someone would have a 0 skill in something, has he ever played an FPS? guess what he has a 1 in firearms.

a 1 skill means he knows its existence & how it generally works. Which is kinda what you're after here which is what I'm understanding.

You would be wrong.

Rank 0 is that level of knowledge.

Rating 0 Untrained
The general baseline of knowledge shared by society. This is not incompetence; it
is the standard level of untrained knowledge held by any Joe Average.
Athletics Example: Has played catch with friends in the backyard.
Firearms Example: Point the barrel, pull the trigger.
Technical Example: Can send an email, browse a Matrix site, or store data
on a commlink.
Social Example: The typical man on the street.
Vehicle Example: Basic operator’s license. Can get from here to there, but can’t
handle driving in adverse conditions.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): High school student. Screamsheet-level
of knowledge.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Never visited Seattle before, but can find it
on a map.

You are thinking of No Rating

No Rating Unaware
A complete absence of knowledge or practice. Generally, this degree of ignorance
can only be achieved with the Incompetent negative quality (p. 95). A character
rated “unaware” in a skill may not default for that skill.
Athletics Example: Couch potato.
Firearms Example: Never seen a gun before.
Technical Example: Shapeshifter, Luddite, or someone born before the
Computer Age.
Social Example: Hermit.
Vehicle Example: Has never seen a car before.
Knowledge Skill Example (Academic): Mentally damaged in some manner.
Knowledge Skill Example (Street): Lives alone in a cave.

I'm more inclined to represent that with the free knowledge skills you get than active skills: after all, I've played tons of FPS games and have several books on guns and weapons lying around my home (Research for my book), but I lack any experience with actual guns, and I'm willing to bet that someone who's never played an FPS and has only been down to the range once will be better than me with actual weapons.
That said, this character is going to be pretty much walking hubris for their first run so even with their high logic their arrogance is unlikely to let them realize that... at least at first.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the Inept quality is required to actually be completely unaware of a skill...

EDIT: Just gotta say that I love players who take a negative quality like Inept: Parachuting on the strength that it's one of those skills that almost never gets used. Minmax wise it makes sense... right up until you have to jump out of a plane that's just been shot down!

Inept: Parachuting is GM code for "put me in a plane and shoot it down," right?

I fully expect any inept qual to come up in game, no matter what. Same for phobias and allergies.

Extending the Jock/Cheerleader concept a bit... Maybe an enemy in the form of an unpopular geek/less popular person/ethnic/whatever that the character bullied in school who's now a high-level Spider/Knight-Errant SWAT/Executive/Administrator/Otherwise able to exact vengeance. The sort of enemy who's got motivation to make the character's life miserable (Though probably not kill them. That way just sniping them isn't really a justifiable way of dealing with them), but at the same time can get some empathy from the players or even the other characters. Maybe part of the character's growth can include realizing how they wronged this person and trying to make it right... or not growing and just working to get the person fired/outed so they can't cause trouble any more.

I hope you guys don't mind me thinking aloud, it helps me get everything clear in my own thoughts and the comments help a lot too.

Honestly, you'd think basic 'emergency' parachuting in 2070 would be fully automated.

Doesn't Inept kind of imply that you might do something like strapping the parachute to your stomach, or fall with your back to the ground, or something equally ignorant?

Or you actively try to get in the way, at least for parachuting. You know how this thing should work, despite what these dad-blamed things think is supposed to happen. It says not to pull the cord, but that's just poppycock.

I mean, there are limits. Unless you took Inept: Wearing Backpacks, it's not an excuse for the GM to just invent zany antics.

The Incompetent quality states that the character is treated as "unaware" in regards to the skill, and cannot even default for that skill.

It also says that you need to make tests for things that people normally take for granted, which begs the question "What kind of test would that be, if you can't even default?" The only way that I can make sense of it is that you automatically fail any normal test with respect to that skill, and have to make tests for things that even someone with a normal Rating: 0 in that skill would do automatically (such as letting the autopilot take you to a destination for someone with incompetence in Pilot Ground Craft).

It can be a confusing quality, especially since you can be incompetent in one skill, and a master of a closely related skill (incompetence in pistols but a skill of 6 in longarms, for example).

Yeah, I would say they (and things like Uncouth) shouldn't be in the game. Not in their current form anyway. They're just not very 'smooth'. Similar qualities could exist that simply impose large permanent penalties/Threshold, without wrecking the skill system.

skills like uncouth shouldn't be in the game because there is basically nothing that they would ever actually represent.


uncouth, for example, means that you are completely clueless about etiquette (unless you invest in some actual skill points - which, btw, would be the only way to make those skill checks that normal people wouldn't even have to roll). you won't be well-liked, but ultimately, you can somewhat work a character concept around that. it likely indicates at least some level of mental problems, such as asperger's syndrome or autism.

you also can't negotiate. if someone offers you a price for something, your options are to take it or leave it. i'm not even remotely certain who i can use as an example of justification for that kind of inability to function. you can't express displeasure over a high price and request it be lower, not even rudely. this is absurd. if someone says they don't want to do something, that is the end of the road for you; trying to get them to change their mind is incomprehensible to you.

you also can't lie. if someone asks you if you were the guy in the mask who robbed the bank 5 minutes ago, then presuming you are that guy your options are saying yes or saying nothing. again, i'm not sure who this is supposed to represent. frankly, a 3 year old child has the mental capacity to lie about having done something wrong (though not necessarily with a great deal of success, they can at least make the attempt).

and you can't tell if anyone is lying. in fact, you can't even tell what people mean when they say things in general. how precisely you are supposed to function in any way is frankly beyond me. you have no idea when people are being sarcastic, you have no concept of the possibility that people lie... frankly, given how its brain must work, i find it amazing that our hypothetical uncouth character has actually been able to grasp the concept that words have meaning at all.

the best way to represent someone with no social skills is to have someone with low charisma and few if any points into social skills, possibly with some specific targeted qualities to go with it.

but if you want to have a character that functions - and i don't just mean one that is an effective shadowrunner, i just mean a character that can actually function whatsoever without the game crashing and burning in the first 15 minutes due to completely absurd nonsense - don't take the qualities that give a wide range of skills you are completely unable to even attempt to use.

Conisdering the amount of 'ware he's packing and the fact tha the's genetweaked it strongly hints that he's born with a sliver spoon in his mouth - and probably wasn't expecting having the need for much in the way of actual work. Which raises the question of why he cramed such a huge pile of 'ware into himself. It denotes a strong drive to be 'better' and that makes it odd he wouldn't even pick a shred of skill - at least amongst what spoiled rich brats compete in, things like driving, the athletics skill group and of course the social group (shre you might want things like pheromone glands and the like to be a chick magnet.

As far as nanite go, somehtign to deal with drunkenness and hangovers, sanitizd metabolism and the like should probably be in character too - if you think your crap deson't stink, why not make it truly so ?

Fueldrop:

Unfortunately it is viable. And you can even dump stat things like reaction. (if you have enough boosts from tech... it's easy to bring it up to max with raises after play starts for 10, 15, 20 karma).

I've said before... too many of the dice in SR4 come from the attribute and not enough from the skill. The cost ratio between the two is off.

The only defense against this is 'trained only' skills. Even then things like skillwires can do a lot to mitigate this though. That and the inability to benefit from teamwork. (limited to skill rank bonus dice from teamwork assistance).

Have you tried out a Adept with the Mind Over Matter power from (dun dun dun) War? It lets you use a mental attribute in place of a corresponding physical attribute in tests. The LOG=AGI version has the fewest drawbacks, as very little relies on just your Agility attribute, unlike Strength (melee damage), Body (encumbrance), or Reaction (initiative). Basically, except for manually reloading weapons or readying throwing weapons, your covered. So, take any race without tusks, BE GENETICALLY DIFFERENT (SURGE and Genetic Optimization), pop for a Cerebral Booster, and go from there. Can't beat Psyche for a cheap boost. Get infused with Inspiration if you're down with that. Consider going Mystic for hella drain dice. And after you've reached 12 Logic (13 if you're a damned dirty Pixie), you can load on the Logic test boosters. Sure, they won't help with your Agility, but they'll help with your other half. Whether it's PuSHeD or neocorts or an encephalon, etc. Just remember that your free Knowledge skill points don't use your augmented Logic attribute.

Out of our group I'm the only player who regularly plays a mundane. Our GM is sick of how it's turned into magicrun... and to be honest, I prefer tech to magic when I've got the option.

And since you ask, I did consider it. It's a good power... just not my style.

What about Skill-Wires?

I would rather go with "The Master of None" adept at 400BP

Resources: 50
Magic: 65
Skills: 100
Attributes: 160 [Minimum] [Will need Negative Qualities to get above 3]
Qualities: 25

Adept: 5
Restricted Gear: 5 [Muscle Toner]
Restricted Gear: 5 [Muscle Augmentation]
Biocompability: 10 [Bioware]

100 BP is 100 skills or 50 skills with a total 3D6 specialization +attributes.

Maximize Magic Rating to 6 but we plan for rating 3 magic.

Attribute: 5 [save those 25 points instead of going for max]
-Muscle Toner 4 [Cover most important skills like combat and stealth]
-Muscle Augmentation 4 [Cover most Athletics Skills]

That's 2,4 Essence so we can take 0,2 essence for cheap Cybereyes and a Smartlink at alpha grade.
We also take Shock Hands & Spur Cyberware to get a bit more hidden flexibility in close combat at alpha grade and some nice hidden Ceramic Bonelacing.

Cost: [Essence]: 2,4 (2,16) BIO / 1,68 (0,84) CYB Total: 3
Eyes: 1 000Y 0,16
Cyberspur: 3 600Y 0,24
Cybertazer: 2 000Y 0,16
Shock Hand: 2 000Y 0,16
Muscles: 60 000Y 1,6
Reflex Recorders: 100 000Y 0,8
Ceramic Bonelacing: 45 000Y 0,96

Total: 213 600K

4 skill groups with reflex recorders is .8 Essence for 100K and cover most things.
Close Combat
Firearms Group
Stealth Group
Athletics Group

Cost:
Ranged Dicepool with ALL common firearms: 15D6
Melee Dicepool: 13D6

Adept Powers
Improved Reflexes 1: 2
Commanding Voice: 0,25 [Too good NOT to have]
Nimble Fingers: 0,25 [Useful for most hands on Mechanic/Electronics skills]
Voice Control: 0,5*

*The ability to be able to scream at 200+ Decibel to shatter most glasslike materials like:
-Armored Glass
-Goggles
-Camera Lenses [Guncams / Cameras etc]
-Vehicle Windows
-Destroy Peoples Eardrums
-Overload microphones and make spying ears bleed

I suggest earplugs until the character initiates for Sound Dampening ability or exchange a 0,25 ability until then.

Good point, Stahlseele! For the concept presented, and given all the cash spent, you'd really *have* to explain the lack of skillwires.

Isn't skillwires EXTREMELY expensive nowadays?

I took incompetent in gunnery while having a fantastic longarms skill. My logic is that the character just can't make heads or tails over using a weapon that he doesn't have his hands directly on.

I get skillwires 4 packaged with my restricted gear (Move-By-Wire 2)

However, At 10,000 Nuyen per Rating point of Skill, That is expensive. Not counting option costs.

Ironically, were it not for the limited nuyen resources in chargen skillsofts would be a better option than genuine skills (2 BP/rank to 4BP/rank, or 4 Karma/rank regardless of rating verses 4+ karma per rank, depending on rating... and that's not factoring in some of the skillsoft packages available in unwired!)

This is true, but once play starts, you now have a pretty severe Nuyen cost for those skills, and they will never advance beyond the Skill 4 level. *shrug* Of course, if you are netting several Million per run, that is of no consequence.

Several million per run? why would anyone hang out with such small-timers?

Heh... Indeed...

Also, with a bit of creative tinkering, for the cost of the BP for Money and restricted gear and a 4/4 warez network group contact and a tricked out comlink with maxed out search you can have every skill soft in the game for 10% of the listi price in 3 days in game time.

Long as you do not mind the upkeep cost of your skills as they degrade (Now that they are cracked).

Not expensive enough that a few specific skills wouldn't be worth it to Mr. Trust Fund here, The Jopp.

That really doesn't fit the concept. I mean, I can see things like muscle toner or cerebral boosters, that make a character feel better because they are stronger, smarter, etc. But I have a harder time seeing a rich kid too lazy to learn any practical skills getting a piece of 'ware that makes you twitchy and can't be turned off. It's more the kind of thing a hardcore street samurai would get. I can see the temptation, though - move-by-wire is a great package deal.