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Sinistra
Vehicles come with a Sensor Value, be it drones or just other veicles it comes with a number either equal to two to three from what I have seen. I am wondering if there is a way to upgrade this since I am playing a Rigger and I want to make it higher if possible to raise my gunnery skill. Mostly because my GM is not letting Control Rig and Hot Sim use stack...making the control rig useless. And since my gunnery skill is near maxed out already, the only way I can really compete is to either get more drones, or upgrade my supply and really sensors is the only thing holding me back when I am jumped in.
Mantis
You buy the sensor components at a higher rating. So if your drone has a camera, a microphone and a laser rangefinder for example, those parts are all rated at the base sensor rating for that drone. Say a 3 for example. You want to upgrade it, you buy a rating 6 camera and microphone. The new sensor rating is equal to the average value of the sensors in it, rounded up. So the new sensor in this example would be 6. The rules for this are on pg 105 of Arsenal.
Why won't your GM stack Control Rig and Hot Sim?
Sinistra
QUOTE (Mantis @ Oct 12 2012, 08:17 PM) *
You buy the sensor components at a higher rating. So if your drone has a camera, a microphone and a laser rangefinder for example, those parts are all rated at the base sensor rating for that drone. Say a 3 for example. You want to upgrade it, you buy a rating 6 camera and microphone. The new sensor rating is equal to the average value of the sensors in it, rounded up. So the new sensor in this example would be 6. The rules for this are on pg 105 of Arsenal.
Why won't your GM stack Control Rig and Hot Sim?
Thanks, that helps.


No idea other than he says the bonus do not stack, even though the control rig is really only useful for jumping into a drone, it does nothing if it does not provide the bonus. I have been trying to find a way to convince him.
Dolanar
you may also consider using a Tacnet with multiple drones if the GM is making it harder on you, several drones with increased Sensors will allow you to have a higher Tacnet which will benefit you.
Sinistra
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 12 2012, 08:25 PM) *
you may also consider using a Tacnet with multiple drones if the GM is making it harder on you, several drones with increased Sensors will allow you to have a higher Tacnet which will benefit you.

I will also have to look into the Tacnet. We have been discussing setting one up for the group.
Dolanar
the larger the group & the better the tacnet, the harder it is to allow Drone's to help since the number of sensors they can have seems to be a bit more limited than people.
Iduno
QUOTE (Sinistra @ Oct 12 2012, 02:23 PM) *
No idea other than he says the bonus do not stack, even though the control rig is really only useful for jumping into a drone, it does nothing if it does not provide the bonus. I have been trying to find a way to convince him.


From what I can tell, the control rig boosters nanites in Augmentation are the only rigger boost that is based on your skill, so it's the only thing that doesn't stack past skill x 1.5. If they don't stack, I'm not sure why a cyberware exists that makes a +2 bonus work as up to a +4. Also, they are the only rigger bonus that I can think of that specifically has a limit. Also, stacking bonuses will be the only way to have any sort of chance at making the high thresholds on some of the cool driving tricks you're supposed to be able to do. The -1 threshold for driving in VR (according to the core book) makes them a bit more reasonable to do, but you'll still need a pile of dice if weather or terrain starts affecting things.

About sensors: I am away from my books, so I don't know what it is called, but there is a modification in Arsenal that allows you to have higher capacity for sensors. Chummer also has it give you +1 signal rating, which may or may not be what the book says. But filling up the drone/vehicle with high-rating or unrated sensors will get you a high sensor rating.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Iduno @ Oct 12 2012, 03:55 PM) *
About sensors: I am away from my books, so I don't know what it is called, but there is a modification in Arsenal that allows you to have higher capacity for sensors. Chummer also has it give you +1 signal rating, which may or may not be what the book says. But filling up the drone/vehicle with high-rating or unrated sensors will get you a high sensor rating.


Improved Sensor Array.
Modification found in Arsenal...
Mantis
TacNet is limited to rating 3 if you get a bunch of drones involved, though since the max rating for TacNet is 4, losing out on 1 dice is no big deal. The ability to have that net no matter how many friends you have around is nice (replacing allies with drones). This info is on pg 125 of Unwired.
I think the Chummer Signal ratings for sensors is based off the table on pg 222 of SR4A. Otherwise you should be able to boost signal by buying a better signal for your drone.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Mantis @ Oct 12 2012, 08:47 PM) *
TacNet is limited to rating 3 if you get a bunch of drones involved,


What.

Drones are the EASIEST thing to get on a rating 4 tacnet.
KarmaInferno
Unless you follow the rules that Drones can only ever have 6 sensor channels.

Which are in there, much as I think they're written in a confusing way.




-k
Udoshi
No. Its written that drones get free sensor channels equal to sensor rating. Its NOT written that their limit is 6. I think that is a rule you are misremembering. To be fair, it IS confusing.

Nothing stops drones from taking extra channels via the same exact methods that player characters do: via vision accessories and addons.
if an Ultrasound accessory works for a character in goggles, it works for a drone in a camera.
SpellBinder
Taken from Unwired, page 125, Sensor Systems: "Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating."

Sounds like a limit to me. Non-military grade hardware is often limited to a rating of 6, and even military vehicles have a default device rating of 5.

Personally I prefer to count drone/vehicle sensors like cybernetic sensors.
Udoshi
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Oct 12 2012, 10:46 PM) *
Taken from Unwired, page 125, Sensor Systems: "Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating."


Note that says Also Count. Also. In addition to. That means sensor plus other categories.

For example, the preceeding categories that came before your quoted text: Natural Senses, Cybernetic Senses. (there are three total, drone sensors fall under one of them, and the other two don't dissappear)
Also, cherrypicking quotes is bad.

Note that any extra vision enhancements aren't actually accounted for in the Sensor rating. A camera 6(vision enhancement 3) isn't six dice, as a sensor of 6 would lead you to believe. It's actually more. In the same way, a camera with a Smartlink isn't a sensor 6 either. It has capabilities that can't be factored in as a sensor rating. In fact, using the same rules you've been provided and quoted, you can see that a a smartlink is explicitly made out to be a sensor channel itself.


If you can't count a smartlink on a drone, you can't count a smartlink on a metahuman either.
SpellBinder
"Drone sensor systems also count" to me says that you can use drones as well as whatever metahumans have in/on them and/or are carrying, rather than not being an available option at all to a tacnet. If the line I quoted had written it as "each drone can supply a number of additional sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating.", then I'd have no problem.

But the way you're putting it to me makes it sound like a drone with a single camera with lowlight & thermographic and a Sensor rating of 2 will provide 5 channels of data to a tacnet, and not 3. And the way it's written in the book it sounds like it doesn't matter what kind of sensor enhancements are crammed in a drone, that a drone provides a flat number of sensor channels to a tacnet based on its Sensor rating no matter what (and I think that's how others here are taking it as well).
NiL_FisK_Urd
Well, as neither the Sensor Upgrade Rules and the "what counts as sensor channel for tacnets" rule makes any sense, talk about it with your GM and reach an understandig before you invest in a tacnet.

Also, you don't need to upgrade sensor to increase your gunnery pool - sensor + gunnery is only used in (passive) sensor targeting. You can manually target with "control" + gunnery (control rigger) or "response" + gunnery (jump-in rigger)

QUOTE (SR4A @ p.245)
Any tests are made using the rigger’s skills and the drone’s attributes (substituting Response for Agility and Reaction and Sensor for Intuition).

Because Gunnery is linked to Agility, you substitute it with Response (and dont suffer the stupid signature modifiers)
Sengir
QUOTE (Mantis @ Oct 13 2012, 02:47 AM) *
I think the Chummer Signal ratings for sensors is based off the table on pg 222 of SR4A. Otherwise you should be able to boost signal by buying a better signal for your drone.

Exactly, the range of a sensor is expressed as a Signal rating
KarmaInferno
I did specifically write "unless you follow the rules that say...".

Meaning, if your GM interprets the Sensor Rating as a hard limit, then yes, you'd be limited to a TacNet 3.

As folks have demonstrated here, though, not everyone interprets it that way.



-k
Falconer
No Udoshi, it says in plain black and white.

A drone may never contribute MORE channels than it's sensor rating to the tacnet. It gives no ways in or out for any of the power gaming munchkins to get around that.

A VEHICLE may... but drones are a specific subset of vehicles. I can contribute more sensor channels from say my main battle tank or thunderbird waiting for pickup outside. But a drone may only ever contribute up to it's sensor rating in channels either for others or for itself. (the rules make no differentiation on that score).


Tacnets are just a huge clusterfuck in the rules anyhow. They leave way too much open to interpretation. I for one would not allow them to add to attacks and defense rolls. But perception and initiative I think they're perfect for. Even the list of benefitis gives things the GM may or might give bonuses to.
Neraph
You're also forgetting that by modifying the sensors manually you alter the drone's sensor rating, as per SR4A. A R4 Camera is R4, but a R4 Camera with Thermographic, Low-Light, Flare Compensation, and Smartlink is higher than that (to GM's discretion).
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 13 2012, 11:10 AM) *
You're also forgetting that by modifying the sensors manually you alter the drone's sensor rating, as per SR4A. A R4 Camera is R4, but a R4 Camera with Thermographic, Low-Light, Flare Compensation, and Smartlink is higher than that (to GM's discretion).


Nope, it is still Rating 4, it just has extra options. smile.gif
Those things you listed do not increase a Sensor Rating. They DO increase Sensor Channels for Metahumans. smile.gif
Udoshi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2012, 12:59 PM) *
Those things you listed do not increase a Sensor Rating. They DO increase Sensor Channels for Metahumans. smile.gif


in any case, this is the lynchpin of the arguement here: Why does a smartlink count for a human and not a drone?
Serious question to the naysayers. Why are you treating the same piece of equipment unfairly? How does that make sense at all?
NiL_FisK_Urd
Because its in the rules! (and because of this, i just houserule it ^^)
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 13 2012, 12:59 PM) *
Nope, it is still Rating 4, it just has extra options. smile.gif
Those things you listed do not increase a Sensor Rating. They DO increase Sensor Channels for Metahumans. smile.gif

Yes and no. Yes, I had the rules for sensors wrong (been a while since I've read them - extras on sensors can be used on Tests for those sensors, like Vision Enhancement on a camera can help your drone's visual Clearsoft Test, but do not increase Sensor Rating).

However, the Natural Senses, Cybernetic Senses, and Sensor Systems are not mutually exclusive. "Drone sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating," does not supersede or annul "Sensory enhancements such as low-light, thermographic, smartlink, ultrasound radar, spatial recognizers, and so on each count as a separate sensor channel." I've underlined the key text here. Yes, a drone with R4 sensors will contribute 4 sensor channels, but if it has thermographic and smartlink, it also contributes both of those since they each count as separate sensor channels. The overall rating of a sensors from a drone is a flat number they can contribute, whereas the additional senses they can have loaded (Spatial Recognizer, Visual Magnification, ect) are counted separately.
Falconer
No it never says this Neraph... the text puts a hard limit on the number of senses a drone can ever contribute. It says 'can supply' not 'supplies' meaning you need to pick out 4 sensor channels from among the others to contribute (which could include your visibility improvements). Can is synonmous with is capable of.

It doesn't matter how many extra you add. A drone can only ever contribute a limited number of relevant ones.

The underlined text has nothing whatsoever to do with the special rules included for drones and tacnet contributions.


Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 14 2012, 12:57 PM) *
No it never says this Neraph... the text puts a hard limit on the number of senses a drone can ever contribute. It says 'can supply' not 'supplies' meaning you need to pick out 4 sensor channels from among the others to contribute (which could include your visibility improvements). Can is synonmous with is capable of.

It doesn't matter how many extra you add. A drone can only ever contribute a limited number of relevant ones.

The underlined text has nothing whatsoever to do with the special rules included for drones and tacnet contributions.

It is not a be all, end all, but rather an allowance. Drones do add their Sensor rating as channels; however, that rule does not preclude the fact that visual and audio sensor enhancements are also added. The underlined section I provided says it all - they count as separate channels and therefore are counted separately from the Drone Sensor. Drones add their Sensor Rating as a Sensor Systems, but they add their visual and audio enhancements as Cybernetic Senses.

Black and white here, and yet again you disagree.
Falconer
No exactly what I mean by making up things completely contrary to text. Black and white requires that you use THEIR text and grammar, not your own.

You say "Drones do add ..." but the rules state "Drones can add ..." there's a huge difference in the grammar there. The limits set on a drone are set and distinct... specifically I think the authors intent is because it's way too easy to blow up the size of a network using cheap drones. The rules make no difference between a character subscribing a drone to enhance his sense contribution and a drone subscribing itself. It sets a limit ("can") on what a drone is capable of supplying no matter the other bits.

I can build a microdrone with only a single high rating sensor (say a microphone) and a proximity detector. Just because it's sensor rating is 6... does not mean it contributes 6 sensor channels. It can only supply 2 of it's 6 possible.
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 14 2012, 12:33 PM) *
No exactly what I mean by making up things completely contrary to text. Black and white requires that you use THEIR text and grammar, not your own.

You say "Drones do add ..." but the rules state "Drones can add ..." there's a huge difference in the grammar there. The limits set on a drone are set and distinct... specifically I think the authors intent is because it's way too easy to blow up the size of a network using cheap drones. The rules make no difference between a character subscribing a drone to enhance his sense contribution and a drone subscribing itself. It sets a limit ("can") on what a drone is capable of supplying no matter the other bits.

I can build a microdrone with only a single high rating sensor (say a microphone) and a proximity detector. Just because it's sensor rating is 6... does not mean it contributes 6 sensor channels. It can only supply 2 of it's 6 possible.

"Drones can add..." Well, "can" means "to be able to; to have the ability, power, or skill to." So your above drone has the ability to add 6 Sensor Systems as channels, point blank, period. The game doesn't care that the Sensor is a R6 because of a single microphone because drones add their Sensor rating as channels.

Now, using the book's grammar and text, we have the following: Sensor Channels are required for TacNet to be operational. There are at least three distinct different categories of Sensor Channels, which are Natural Senses, Cybernetic Senses, and Sensor Systems. The drone's sensor rating is a Sensor System (which is described as microphones, cameras, and such), while things like thermographic, low-light, and vision magnification are clearly listed as Cybernetic Systems. Since the game clearly tracks these things separately, to the point of explicitly listing them under different bolded headers with their own distinct paragraphs, it is abundantly obvious that a drone with a Sensor rating of 4 that also has Thermographic, Low-Light, and Spacial Recognition can contribute 7 Sensor Channels - 4 from Sensor Systems and 3 from Cybernetic Senses.
Falconer
Firstly... lets break this down this section is for qualifying for the tacnet.

Drones do NOT have natural senses. (meat senses)
Drones do NOT have cybernetic senses. (cyberware/bioware)
Drones only have sensor systems... the rules are quite explicit.

"Drone sensor systems also count; each drone *can supply* a number of sensor channels equal to its sensor rating."
Using parallel wording for can...
"Drone sensor systems also count; each drone *is capable of supplying* a number of sensor channels equal to its sensor rating."

The verb used isn't "supplies" which would mean what you say. (just provides it no matter what). The helping verb used in "can supply" modifies the meaning.

So while that microdrone has a rating 6 sensor, it only has 2 sensor channels to transmit. It can't transmit more than the two it has merely because it's sensor rating is 6. If I add enhancements to the microphone I can add them as well as extra channels up to the drone's capability limit. But the sensor rating itself only caps the number of sensors a drone can provide.

Even if we read it the way you did... that a drone merely supplies it's sensor channes == to it's sensor. Then there is no provision for sending fewer or more sensor channels than that. A drone in this reading can send it's sensor rating in channels and no more or less.
Neraph
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 15 2012, 12:25 PM) *
Firstly... lets break this down this section is for qualifying for the tacnet.

Drones do NOT have cybernetic senses. (cyberware/bioware)

Citation please.

What the section actually says is that any visual, audio, or any other sense from cybernetic enhancements such as cybereyes/ears qualify. It then says that thermographic, low-light, and other such additions are also considered Cybernetic Senses. In fact, bioware would not qualify since it would be a Natural Sense.

The reason it specifically mentions the cybereyes/ears and others is that those senses are not Natural nor are they Sensor, therefore they are Cybernetic. Cybernetic Senses also include thermographic and other modifications, however, as they are included in their own unique sentence complete with the phrase "each count as a separate sensor channel," which is the crux of the issue.

The game very clearly makes a distinction between a drone's Sensor Rating (which is a Sensor System) and thermographic, low-light, or visual magnification (which are Cybernetic Systems). I don't know how you can't differentiate between the two since they are so obviously distinctly listed.
Dolanar
There is a slight flaw in that thought, there are at least 2 forms of thermographic channels, 1 Cybernetic, 1 Natural. Some races receive these as extra senses, or can be obtained through magical means which still qualifies as Natural. so if there are already 2 version why could there not theoretically be 3 versions? 1 for each type?
Neraph
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 15 2012, 12:57 PM) *
There is a slight flaw in that thought, there are at least 2 forms of thermographic channels, 1 Cybernetic, 1 Natural. Some races receive these as extra senses, or can be obtained through magical means which still qualifies as Natural. so if there are already 2 version why could there not theoretically be 3 versions? 1 for each type?

Because things such as thermographic and low-light are not explicitly listed as examples of Sensor Systems - only a drone's Sensor Rating or a handheld sensor package is listed. Since they do not explicitly list those forms of sensory enhancements as Sensor Systems, but they are listed explicitly as Cybernetic Senses, they obviously follow the rules for Cybernetic Senses.

EDIT: The reason for the difference between Natural Senses and Cybernetic is because of the following: natural senses and bioware are not wifi enabled and therefore require a simrig to be valid sensor channels for TacNet. Cybernetic ears give you full audio, like ears, but you do not require a simrig to contribute them, as they are wifi enabled. Drone Sensors, however, are tracked differently and have their own rules for how many sensor channels they add. If you have a microphone strapped to your arm, you can add it as a single sensor channel (first sentence). If that microphone has a spatial recognizer, though, that is listed as a Cybernetic Sense and "count[s] as a separate sensor channel."
Machine Ghost
A possible variant interpretation, would be that a drone can be treated in two different ways. I can be an autonomous entity running under is own pilot, and counting as another character in the tacnet. Or it can be treated as an extension of the senses of a subscribed [or maybe jumped in] rigger. With that base assumption, the text being quoted *could* be interpreted as applying to the second case. The drone can add sensor channels for the rigger equal to the drone signal rating. If it is running autonomously, and is itself a member of the tacnet [is running a copy of the tacnet software], I would like to say it should be able to use vision and audio enhancements as sensor channels, the same as any other independent entity in the tacnet. The rolls made by the drone would get the benefit of the tacnet. If the drone is just more sensors for the rigger, and is not running the tacnet software, then it might not get that added benefit from the tacnet. GM's get the final say as always.

Are there any references to how an AI would be treated in a tacnet?
Machine Ghost
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 15 2012, 12:00 PM) *
Because things such as thermographic and low-light are not explicitly listed as examples of Sensor Systems - only a drone's Sensor Rating or a handheld sensor package is listed. Since they do not explicitly list those forms of sensory enhancements as Sensor Systems, but they are listed explicitly as Cybernetic Senses, they obviously follow the rules for Cybernetic Senses.

EDIT: The reason for the difference between Natural Senses and Cybernetic is because of the following: natural senses and bioware are not wifi enabled and therefore require a simrig to be valid sensor channels for TacNet. Cybernetic ears give you full audio, like ears, but you do not require a simrig to contribute them, as they are wifi enabled. Drone Sensors, however, are tracked differently and have their own rules for how many sensor channels they add. If you have a microphone strapped to your arm, you can add it as a single sensor channel (first sentence). If that microphone has a spatial recognizer, though, that is listed as a Cybernetic Sense and "count[s] as a separate sensor channel."

Senses do not need to be wifi enabled to contribute to a tacnet. At some point, they DO need to connect to electronics to be used. IE sensors with skinlink but with wifi disabled are perfectly acceptable, as long as the skinlink provides a path to a node running a tacsoft, and the node does have wifi access to the rest of the tacnet.
Machine Ghost
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 15 2012, 11:53 AM) *
(snip .. snip)
The reason it specifically mentions the cybereyes/ears and others is that those senses are not Natural nor are they Sensor, therefore they are Cybernetic. Cybernetic Senses also include thermographic and other modifications, however, as they are included in their own unique sentence complete with the phrase "each count as a separate sensor channel," which is the crux of the issue.

The game very clearly makes a distinction between a drone's Sensor Rating (which is a Sensor System) and thermographic, low-light, or visual magnification (which are Cybernetic Systems). I don't know how you can't differentiate between the two since they are so obviously distinctly listed.

This may be twisting things to get to the same place but, the Sensor Systems section says
QUOTE (UW125)
Data acquired from worn, carried, or mounted sensor systems of various types (cameras, microphones, range finders, motion sensors, etc.) may also be contributed to the network as a sensor channel. Drones sensor systems also count; each drone can supply a number of sensor channels equal to its Sensor rating.

So the drone Sensor Systems can contribute the sensor rating channels. Could the drone, that is running tacsoft, carry one or more additional sensors, that are NOT part of its sensor system, and include the data from those sensors in the count of the sensor channels? Same as the ultrasound sensor in the example just below the quoted text.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 15 2012, 02:00 PM) *
If you have a microphone strapped to your arm, you can add it as a single sensor channel (first sentence). If that microphone has a spatial recognizer, though, that is listed as a Cybernetic Sense and "count[s] as a separate sensor channel."


No it is not. It is still considered a sensor system.

Natural Senses: Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig.
Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, olfactory, or other sense acquired via cybereyes, cyberears, olfactory booster, orientation system, etc. [Emphasis mine]
Sensor Systems: Data acquired from worn, carried, or mounted sensor systems of various types may also be contributed to the network as a sensor channel.

A spatial recognizer built into a microphone is not input gained via a cybernetic implant therefore it does not qualify as such and instead qualifies as a sensor system.

The problem regarding the rules of drones and tacnets is that it states the drone contributes channels equal to its sensor value. It's an idiotic rule since sensor is rating based on the average rating of all installed sensors rather than the number of sensors installed. It means that you can have 6 sensors installed at rating 1 and only be able to contribute one of them.
Neraph
QUOTE (Machine Ghost @ Oct 15 2012, 01:04 PM) *
Senses do not need to be wifi enabled to contribute to a tacnet. At some point, they DO need to connect to electronics to be used. IE sensors with skinlink but with wifi disabled are perfectly acceptable, as long as the skinlink provides a path to a node running a tacsoft, and the node does have wifi access to the rest of the tacnet.

What this describes is that those senses require wifi. Wifi is required for those sensors to add into the TacNet. You just made the wifi access more convoluted is all.

QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 15 2012, 02:10 PM) *
No it is not. It is still considered a sensor system.

Natural Senses: Visual, audio, or olfactory senses recorded via simrig.
Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, olfactory, or other sense acquired via cybereyes, cyberears, olfactory booster, orientation system, etc. [Emphasis mine]
Sensor Systems: Data acquired from worn, carried, or mounted sensor systems of various types may also be contributed to the network as a sensor channel.

A spatial recognizer built into a microphone is not input gained via a cybernetic implant therefore it does not qualify as such and instead qualifies as a sensor system.

The problem regarding the rules of drones and tacnets is that it states the drone contributes channels equal to its sensor value. It's an idiotic rule since sensor is rating based on the average rating of all installed sensors rather than the number of sensors installed. It means that you can have 6 sensors installed at rating 1 and only be able to contribute one of them.

Except you're only quoting part of the sections. You conveniently left off a whole sentence that describes Cybernetic Senses very differently.

Natural Senses: normal senses contributed via simrig. Naturally-occuring lowlight and thermographic also count as separate channels.
Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, ect. granted through cyberware (ears/eyes). Here's the kicker: "Sensory enhancements such as low-light, thermographic, smartlink, ultrasound, radar, spatial recognizers, and so on count as a separate sensor channel." That is a stand alone sentence that is separate from the sentence allowing cybernetic sense replacements. This means that any form of smartlink, thermographic, low-light, ect. that is added that is not from a natural source being contributed via simrin is a cybernetic sense.
Sensor Systems: The final classification given of Sensor Channels is that each sensor worn, carried, or mounted counts as a channel. These are things like cameras, microphones, motion sensors, ect. However, as has been repeated so many times, drones can add their Sensor Rating as a number of sensor channels to the TacNet.

Important things to note about drones' sensors: A drone's Sensor Rating is an attribute that is independant from what sensors the drone actually has. Audio and visual enhancements do not in any way affect a drone's Sensor Rating.

Important things to note about Sensor Channels: Drone's sensor ratings are explicitly listed as Sensor Systems. This attribute is added as a Sensor System bonus to the Sensor Channels in a TacNet. Things such as thermographic and audio enhancements, however, are either Natural Senses (via simrig) or Cybernetic Senses. Therefore any modifications such as smartlink, thermographic, and other visual and audio enhancements can only be qualified as either Natural or Cybernetic Senses.

So, a drone with a Sensor Rating of 4 adds four sensor channels to a TacNet. However, if that same drone had thermographic and smartlink on its camera, it would add six. If you have a R5 camera strapped to your arm it adds one channel. However, if that one R5 camera also has thermographic, low-light, and vision enhancement, it would add four channels.

This is the only consistent way to read these rules. Interpreting the rules to read that additional senses on drones would not add to the sensor channels would contradict the ability for mundanes to be able to add their natural low-light or thermographic (provided they had a simrig).
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 16 2012, 01:09 PM) *
Except you're only quoting part of the sections. You conveniently left off a whole sentence that describes Cybernetic Senses very differently.


I am ignoring nothing. I am simply remembering lines from SR4a that show your interpretation to be fully flawed.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 16 2012, 01:09 PM) *
Natural Senses: normal senses contributed via simrig. Naturally-occuring lowlight and thermographic also count as separate channels.
Cybernetic Senses: Any visual, audio, ect. granted through cyberware (ears/eyes). Here's the kicker: "Sensory enhancements such as low-light, thermographic, smartlink, ultrasound, radar, spatial recognizers, and so on count as a separate sensor channel." That is a stand alone sentence that is separate from the sentence allowing cybernetic sense replacements. This means that any form of smartlink, thermographic, low-light, ect. that is added that is not from a natural source being contributed via simrin is a cybernetic sense.
Sensor Systems: The final classification given of Sensor Channels is that each sensor worn, carried, or mounted counts as a channel. These are things like cameras, microphones, motion sensors, ect. However, as has been repeated so many times, drones can add their Sensor Rating as a number of sensor channels to the TacNet.


This interpretation of yours is 100% incorrect. First of all, it establishes that various modes in cybereyes/cyberears allow those cybernetic options to provide more than one sensor channel. So if you have cybereyes with both thermo and ultrasound vision modes you're able to commit 3 channels to a tacnet through your cybereye and not one. Second of all, sensors systems can have any of those options. A camera can have a thermographic enhancement installed. This is not, in any circumstance, a cybernetic enhancement.

QUOTE
A number of options are available for installation in visual sensors and imaging devices.


It later goes on to describe thermographic, smartlink, and other options.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 16 2012, 01:09 PM) *
Important things to note about drones' sensors: A drone's Sensor Rating is an attribute that is independant from what sensors the drone actually has. Audio and visual enhancements do not in any way affect a drone's Sensor Rating.


The Drone's sensor rating is NOT independent of the sensors the drone has installed. It is in fact entirely dependent on the installed sensors.

QUOTE
In the case of vehicles, their Sensor rating indicates the Sensor package rating installed in the vehicle. Vehicle sensors, and indeed sensors in any package, may be used individually in which case they generally have a default rating equal to the package’s Sensor rating. The Sensor package rating should be used for most situations and is equal to the average rating of all the sensors in a package (rounded up).


The last line of that quote indicates that modifying and upgrading the sensors in a vehicle will cause the vehicle's sensor rating to adjust upward.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 16 2012, 01:09 PM) *
Important things to note about Sensor Channels: Drone's sensor ratings are explicitly listed as Sensor Systems. This attribute is added as a Sensor System bonus to the Sensor Channels in a TacNet. Things such as thermographic and audio enhancements, however, are either Natural Senses (via simrig) or Cybernetic Senses. Therefore any modifications such as smartlink, thermographic, and other visual and audio enhancements can only be qualified as either Natural or Cybernetic Senses.

So, a drone with a Sensor Rating of 4 adds four sensor channels to a TacNet. However, if that same drone had thermographic and smartlink on its camera, it would add six. If you have a R5 camera strapped to your arm it adds one channel. However, if that one R5 camera also has thermographic, low-light, and vision enhancement, it would add four channels.

This is the only consistent way to read these rules. Interpreting the rules to read that additional senses on drones would not add to the sensor channels would contradict the ability for mundanes to be able to add their natural low-light or thermographic (provided they had a simrig).


A drone with a sensor rating of four can add four sensor channels. It does not state that it does add four sensor channels. A drone can have a sensor rating of 6 and have only one sensor in it, say a camera. Such a drone does not qualify for a Tacnet. That much is a simple fact. However, for the sake of simplicity, you can assume a drone has at least as many different sensors as its sensor rating since very few, if any, drones have a sensor rating greater than three and the basic sensor package has about 4 or 5 different types of sensors in it.
Machine Ghost
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 16 2012, 11:37 AM) *
[snip .. snip]
QUOTE (Neraph @ Oct 16 2012, 01:09 PM) *
Important things to note about drones' sensors: A drone's Sensor Rating is an attribute that is independant from what sensors the drone actually has. Audio and visual enhancements do not in any way affect a drone's Sensor Rating.
The Drone's sensor rating is NOT independent of the sensors the drone has installed. It is in fact entirely dependent on the installed sensors.
A drones sensor package rating depends on the average rating of the installed sensors. I does NOT depend on the number of sensors (functions) installed. A sensor package containing a single rating 6 sensor gives a sensor package rating of 6. A sensor package with 6 rating 1 sensors gives a sensor package rating of 1. 6 tacnet channels from a single sensor, versus 1 channel from 6 sensors, when the number of channels is from the drone sensor rating, not the number of sensors that are averaged together to get that rating.

It may not make *sense* when compared to some other sensor contexts, but that IS what the rule says.

Note that what counts as a tacnet sensor channel has no reference to the range or rating of the sensors involved either. A rating 1 handheld MAD scanner counts the same as a rating 3 MAD, both of which have a range of 5 meters. Rating 1 or rating 4 Ultrawideband radar in a handheld scanner, with a range of 100 meters also counts as a single channel. A drone sensor package contributes a number of channels equal to the package rating. Does not matter how many sensors are in the package; does not matter what the range of the sensors is; does not matter what the rating of the individual sensors is (other than how that affects the rating of the package). Similarly for the cybernetic senses. You get a channel for cybereyes vision, and for additional functions (low-light, etc), but it does not matter if you have vision enhancement, or what the enhancement rating is. That would change the dice pool for vision tests, does not add a separate tacnet channel.

The way tacnet has been designed, the quality of data does not affect the bonuses. Just the number of channels. IRL, the improvements possible would be affected all of those things and more. To make the system actually useable, major simplification was needed. The channels provided by drone sensor packages was one of those.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Machine Ghost @ Oct 16 2012, 04:15 PM) *
Note that what counts as a tacnet sensor channel has no reference to the range or rating of the sensors involved either. A rating 1 handheld MAD scanner counts the same as a rating 3 MAD, both of which have a range of 5 meters. Rating 1 or rating 4 Ultrawideband radar in a handheld scanner, with a range of 100 meters also counts as a single channel. A drone sensor package contributes a number of channels equal to the package rating. Does not matter how many sensors are in the package; does not matter what the range of the sensors is; does not matter what the rating of the individual sensors is (other than how that affects the rating of the package). Similarly for the cybernetic senses. You get a channel for cybereyes vision, and for additional functions (low-light, etc), but it does not matter if you have vision enhancement, or what the enhancement rating is. That would change the dice pool for vision tests, does not add a separate tacnet channel.

The way tacnet has been designed, the quality of data does not affect the bonuses. Just the number of channels. IRL, the improvements possible would be affected all of those things and more. To make the system actually useable, major simplification was needed. The channels provided by drone sensor packages was one of those.


The words say a drone can supply a number of channels equal to its sensor rating not that it does. That's a small nitpick since the standard sensor package has enough types of sensors to match its sensor rating. The drone rules for tacnet only really break down once you start using customized sensor packages and I would hazard to guess that may be legitimately covered as the drone "wearing" individual sensors under the sensors topic. I think the drone rule is intended to serve as a shorthand for drones that do not use custom sensor suites so that players don't need to figure out what's installed in the sensor package (which is how it's described in SR4a). Since you just use the sensor rating whenever dealing for a perception based check for a drone. Otherwise with custom sensor suites you use the sensor rating appropriate to the test or cannot make the test if the appropriate sensor is not installed. In other words, the shorthand Sensor rating is broader in what it can address while not being potent while custom sensor suites should be more potent yet narrow.
Falconer
My take is that it's intentional on the part of the designers to prevent tacnets from being exploded out by using drones. Even if a drone is wearing additional sensors... it does not get around it's limitation that it can only supply a number of channels up to its sensor rating.


One other poster had one thing right... the rule works both ways. It works for a rigger subscribing himself through his drones. Remember the channels must be relevant. So lets take a rigger with some flyspys (IIRC sensor 2) and a doberman. The rigger though not physically present cannot use his own senses to qualify for the tacnet with maybe the exception of his biomonitor (since his condition is relevant to the operation of the drones which are present). He subscribes the two flyspys and the doberman to get say 6 sensor channels if each is sensor rating 2. The rigger is now a contributing member of the tacnet.


Similarly... I believe the rules are specifically crafted in such a way as to prevent drones from being fully autonomous members in their own right because they're far far more prevalent. One could in theory make tacnet out of a pack of dobermans for example.

Hence why that 'can' is so vitally important. As you've pointed out many times before Stealth... can does not equal does. The drone must have enough relevant sensor channels to contribute. (most drones only have 5 btw for medium.. unless you're paying for improved sensor array or start counting camera/mic improvements; contrary to your 'assumption' of most drones... small and micro drones have far less sensor capacity).

Oh well, I've said it before and I'll say it again. The rules are a mess. Both in terms of what qualifies and how... and in terms of what benefits the tacnet may provide.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 16 2012, 05:46 PM) *
<snip>


Just a few points. Sensor Rating in channels and you need Tacnet Rating * 2 in channels to contribute. Most vanilla drones are Sensor Rating 2 or 3 and as you pointed out have about 5 sensors in the default package. With 5 sensors, they could in theory take part in an R2 tacnet if you upgrade the sensor ratings to an average of 4. Likewise, the only way for a drone to participate in a R3 tacnet is to take the Improved Sensor Array (?) modification to increase the number of slots for sensors.
Falconer
Not quite right... microdrones are limited to only a single sensor.
Mini's have a capacity 3, small capacity 5, medium capacity 6, large 8, vehicle 12, lare vehicle 30IIRC...

Many sensors take up more than one slot... such as the wall penetrating UWB radar. Only the larger drones have enough by your way of viewing things. By your reading small drones need not apply for rating 3 or more... only rating 2 or less. So # is less than or equal to capacity unless you also count enhancements (which I don't think is a problem, up to a maximum of the sensor rating... can == is capable of).

A cheap off the shelf drone can still help participate in a tacnet even if it cannot participate directly itself. It's user would subscribe it, then use it's channels as a subportion of his own. If that user is jumped into said drone then the drone would still gain the benefits through him. That user merely needs to subscribe multiple drones as his tacnet contribution... each drone limited to it's sensor rating.

Also your default sensor package is pretty much undefined for any drone... for large vehicles... it's two cameras, two rangefinders, a radar (capacity 5 or 6 IIRC), an atmospheric sensor, and a proximity sensor. So despite 12 capacity only 7 different sensors. I haven't seen anything listing the standard sensor package of any drone.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Falconer @ Oct 17 2012, 02:57 AM) *
Not quite right... microdrones are limited to only a single sensor.

One thing i ask myself is, how can a microdrone function with only one cap. 1 sensor? In my opinion, every drone needs at least a camera, a proximity detector and a range finder, plus an altimeter for flying drones - or a 360° ultrasound system
Byrel
Hmmm. I always assumed some basic nav sensors weren't 'sensors' in the SR sense of the word. I'm a roboticist IRL, and I would say a flying microdrone (today) would require, at a minimum, 3 accelerometers, 3 gyros, an altimeter, a wireless transceiver, and some basic ranging sensors (Sonar would be cheapest and lowest-power.) GPS or sixth-world equivalent would probably be par for the course if you could squeeze it in. It'd be tough today, but given 60 years of miniturization, I'd bet on it.

However, while I would call these things sensors, they differ from the sensors listed in SR4A in that they are not principally concerned with observing the microdrone's environment, and generally draw much less power (again, IRL) than sensors like the ones listed in the sourcebook. The two exceptions are the wireless and GPS, which need a significant power budget for transmitting. Maybe antenna design improvements (mutter, mutter, nano, mutter) have reduced the power of those to on a par with your other critical sensors, so they don't really take up a 'sensor' slot?

Edit: Oh, and it would need a compass for sure. Inertial systems drift in non-gravitational planes without it.
Warlordtheft
Two things to note:

By raw--sensor rating is shorthand for the sensor package. It is the average of all the sensors in the drone/vehicle.

By raw--adding a rating 1 sensor (UWB) to a Rating 5 camera results in a rating 3 sensor package. Hence the disconnect and house rules. It is a bug in the system as designed.

Canray and other SR authors---CAN YOU FIX IT IN YOU NEXT BOOK??????? smile.gif
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