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Raiden
ok so I have done some reading, and some theory crafting for chars. (hehe)

it seems to me that the adept hacker has some 1 ups on the TM in terms of certain things, though i may be completely wrong. an example, let me boost my dice by 2-3 with the non-combat skill booster. quite easy as only .25 per lvl and you can (or i could) geas the programs to only my commlink, IE cant pick up someone elses com and use those adept powers. (mine was a custom) I am already looking better then a TM I beleive. not to mention some of the cooler powers you can grab such as edictic memory, mem displace. multi-task, and the others.

can someone just give me a straight up run down of experience or rule know-how the pros and cons of adept hacker vs TM?
Lionhearted
As I can see it the most important advantage a TM got over any other hacker is threading. Allowing them to boost the living hell out of their existing forms and compensating for their limits in aquiring them.
Not sure if that compensates for how much they have to sink into their abilities. Then again I haven't looked into submersion much...
Xenefungus
Sprites.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Xenefungus @ Oct 17 2012, 09:31 PM) *
Sprites.


How is sprites different from agents? (genuine curiousity trying to get the hang of matrix rules)
Xenefungus
They have unique powers that can not be replicated otherwise. For example, unbreakable encryption in a world where encryption generally is pretty much broken in a matter of very little time.

I advice you to have a look at the sprite powers in general. Fading, as mentioned, is also really important of course - mainly because Stealth acts as a threshold and was never expected to get up to 12 at character creation easily (a fact i do not like at all, just my opinion).

What is true though, is that Adept hackers are in the end strictly better than mundane ones. But that is true for basically all characters wink.gif
phlapjack77
  1. Sprites are intelligent and can make decisions independently
  2. Sprites have CFs of their own
  3. Sprites can assist the TM with the TM's CFs, so with this + threading, the TM can have a really high CF
  4. Sprites have some pretty good powers on their own
  5. Sprites are free to register (unlike bonding spirits) so a TM can have many registered sprites at his beck and call
Raiden
thanks for the info, Ima do some more in depth reading on TM, though I kinda wish they had gone a slightly dif direction for the TM, as it seems to me they are like a summoner, cept in the digital world. :/ (least at this point)
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Raiden @ Oct 18 2012, 03:49 AM) *
as it seems to me they are like a summoner, cept in the digital world. :/ (least at this point)

Yeah, that's what many say - that TMs are the mages of the matrix. It definitely looks like the developers just took mage concepts and straight ported them to the matrix.

What direction do you wish TMs had taken?
Dolanar
Sprites are essentially Techno Spirits like the spirits mages can get
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Raiden @ Oct 17 2012, 09:49 PM) *
thanks for the info, Ima do some more in depth reading on TM, though I kinda wish they had gone a slightly dif direction for the TM, as it seems to me they are like a summoner, cept in the digital world. :/ (least at this point)



QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 17 2012, 09:53 PM) *
Yeah, that's what many say - that TMs are the mages of the matrix.


Which in my opinion is way cooler then being a hacker that don't have to pay for his Comm
Raiden
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 17 2012, 03:53 PM) *
Yeah, that's what many say - that TMs are the mages of the matrix. It definitely looks like the developers just took mage concepts and straight ported them to the matrix.

What direction do you wish TMs had taken?


I would have prefered a more personal empowerment in the matrix, like I can do this or that, way better then a hacker and his program (without said program) do not get me wrong sprites and spirits are cool, just when I think technomancer I think about someone or something that controls the matrix (or any digital world/info) through his own power/will ya know? like instead of sprites, the TM could invest in those powers for himself. idk lol. just feels waay to much like a mage :/ except not as magey.
Tanegar
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Oct 17 2012, 03:53 PM) *
What direction do you wish TMs had taken?

Almost anything other than "magic hackers lol."
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Raiden @ Oct 18 2012, 04:07 AM) *
I would have prefered a more personal empowerment in the matrix, like I can do this or that, way better then a hacker and his program (without said program) do not get me wrong sprites and spirits are cool, just when I think technomancer I think about someone or something that controls the matrix (or any digital world/info) through his own power/will ya know? like instead of sprites, the TM could invest in those powers for himself. idk lol. just feels waay to much like a mage :/ except not as magey.

No I hear you - what you say makes sense smile.gif I sort of agree, it would've been cooler I think if there were more distinction between mages and TMs than just "matrix/not matrix". Maybe if instead of compiling sprites, the TM was able to compile some of the sprite powers for himself for a limited time or something...

Once TMs start getting Echoes, some of those start getting really interesting in ways to control all things matrix-related and RL-related. Too bad those powers are far away in terms of time played...
Raiden
yeah I have played a mage and know a good bit about them but TMers I dont know alot about. think Ima do some in depth reading and maybe come up with some way to integrate sprite powers into the TM themselves, its prob a pipe dream but its something to keep me busy lol. well whenever I get some free time at least lol. complex forms are sooo expensive at chargen T.T if this works then sprites would be removed though :/ well hmm maybe not removed but you could make them unnecessary, but thats a lot of reading and a long time away lol. and of course I doubt many people would take to it as an optional house rule.
UmaroVI
Technomancers get sprites, which are crazy good, and the ability to get a higher Stealth rating than anyone else by using Threading/Assist Operation (for other ratings, they can get at most a few extra dice because they can't get PuSHeD/Encephalon/NeoCortical; they'll be a bit better at a few things and worse at most other stuff, but Stealth checks rating, not dice pool).

Mundane hackers pay way, way less to be good at the matrix. A mundane hacker can also be a second-rate street samurai, or a third-rate street samurai and face, right out of the box, and they can easily expand over time. A technomancer can't diversify like that at chargen, and has much more trouble diversifying over time (they can eventually become a subpar street samurai with Biowires and Acceleration).

Non-cybered adept hackers are like mundane hackers, but somewhat worse and less flexible because they are giving up PuSHeD/Encephalon/Neocortical for things that are less good.

Cybered adept hackers can get the highest "overall" dice pools (meaning for everything, rather than just for a handful of CFs), but they give up diversity compared to a mundane hacker. Worth noting is the Mind over Matter adept power (WAR!). Compared to a technomancer, they'll have better dice pools, they won't have the super-high Stealth rating, and they won't have sprites.

The TL;DR: Techomancers get sprites and high Stealth ratings. Mundanes get the ability to diversify effectively and easily. Cybered adept hackers get the best dice pools. Non-cybered adept hackers are just generally sad.
Raiden
yeah its quite easy to make a REALLY good adept hacker with a pretty good combat skill set with some bioware and some adpet PP spent in both.
Jaid
technomancers also excel in other areas where rating plays a role other than adding dice to a pool.

for example, a rating 10 attack program deals 10 damage. with black IC, that can be character damage instead of persona damage.

additionally, threading can let you pull off some very specific stuff. especially if you have unwired. which lets you give people insanities if you hit them with psychotropic IC... and if you're a technomancer, you can thread in whichever insanity you want. so... for example, you can give them a phobia of whatever you feel like, or a mania of whatever you want... like a phobia of telling lies, or a mania for telling secrets, when you're interrogating someone. or a phobia of upsetting you when you need to manipulate a target into doing something. frankly, this use alone is pretty terrifying.

adepts can definitely make very good hackers. but if you get an experienced technomancer, they can do things that are just absolutely nuts. there are an absolutely absurd amount of amazing options for technomancers as they advance...

though as was pointed out, there's also the drawback that a technomancer will likely just keep on investing in becoming a better and better technomancer, while a hacking adept can fairly easily pick up secondary and tertiary specialties... a technomancer will likely be absolutely atrocious in combat for example. as in, i could see them having only a single point in firearms with a specialization, and investing in only one other combat skill: dodge (which they may very well end up using less than pistols). the investment to make a good technomancer is extremely high.
Raiden
after some more reading and fooling around in chummer, TM can make amazing hacker/rigger combos without spending much more points than they already have it seems, so theres that, I am gonna go full VR for the missions, my drones will go with, kinda thing, but I think if you want a more "active" hacker and adept aug. hacker would be better. just from what I see
Xenefungus
Thinking what I do about the authors makes me kinda sure that it wasn't intentional that Technomancers excel in everything that's based off of a CF's rating directly instead of adding dice. Sure, that's what the rules result in, but I am really not convinced that's what they wanted to do with TMs. If they did, in the fluff there would be much more mention about TMs being not detectable at all (Stealth) and hitting harder than any military offensive program (Attack). Make of this what you will, but I think it's kind of sad that so many things are so poorly thought through.
Raiden
yeah I think the TM received the LEAST amount of thought about fluff and in game rules.
Bearclaw
I must have missed something. How do TM's get high stealth?
Xenefungus
QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 17 2012, 10:46 PM) *
the ability to get a higher Stealth rating than anyone else by using Threading/Assist Operation

phlapjack77
Which really shows the power of sprites, and the possible broken-ness of sprite registering.

Given any appreciable amount of down-time, every TM should have Chr-number of sprites registered with many, many services owed, since it's free to register (and re-register, and re-register, etc) a sprite. Mages have to pay a lot of money every time they want to bind a spirit...
Falconer
Actually with a little bit of downtime you can write a rating 12 stealth program plus optomize 6. It's quite doable in a few weeks. With a good software skill you can permanently thread few of your programs to ludicrous grade.
Halinn
Depending on how one reads the Swap echo, it could mean that a technomancer could run around with everything threaded to insanity, at no penalty.
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