Hi,

My group is gearing up for a Shadowrun, I've never played before and am not normally a fan of sci-fi stuff. They've played once before but I think they had an issue with a min-maxer in their previous run so they've banned magic outright.

So I want to make someone who is good at something and not incompetent in key areas but there are just so many moving parts in this game that I wanted some input as to what to look out for.

I will be a Troll drug and chemical chef. I always play either magic users or tanks. As magic is out I am going to be tanking like nobodies business. I also won't be using cyberware (personally I find the idea of cutting off body parts to replace with a robotic one skin crawling), bioware is in though. I also like to use the less straightforward options, that's why the idea of using drugs/toxins, tasers, flash grenades etc. appeals more than just burying lead in someone.

My background is the third son of a successful, rich family, the older brother is a successful bio/cyberware engineer/head of research, the older sister is a powerful businesswoman in a major company of some sort and me, the third son is the slacker lowlife.

Publicly the other siblings shun and ignore me as a wastrel living off inheritance, while privately we all support one another with unique skills covering business, technology and me providing criminal connections for when special kinds of people are required.

400BPs, 20th Anniversary Ed. Core Book only

I am looking at spending those something like
Troll 40bp
Gear 50bp (I want to set aside the maximum and can claw back from it later, there's so much stuff...)
Contacts 30 (thinking 5/6 sister, 5/6 brother and a 4/4 in a local gang/mafia boss who uses me as a chemical producer)

Attributes 200bp
Not spent anything here yet, though I want Body 9 (tanktastic) and Logic 4, probably Willpower 4 or 5, Agility and Reaction seem like they have to be as high as possible for me to be able to take part in combat so 4 and 5 respectively...nothing in Strength as 5 is high enough and I'm not a melee fighter, Charisma perhaps 3 to give me a dice pool in social situations (I don't want to be the guy who blows the entire groups cover because I can't keep a poker face)

Skill I am less sure about as I don't really know what's good and what's not and what kinds of levels I should be looking to get, currently I am eyeing up
Groups: Bioware 1, Influence 2 (giving me around 5 dice on most social rolls...is that enough? Or will any random policeman just blow straight past that kind of dice pool when I'm lying?)

Skills
Pistols 6 (I plan on using a Ballistic Shield if we go for a full on assault rather than a sneaky route so one handed all the way, obviously leaving the shield at home if we go sneaky)
Dodge at some ranks
Thrown Weapons 3 with lobbed specialty (for delivering flash bangs and CS bombs)
Chemistry around 3 or 4 ranks with a specialty

General questions are:
- What kind of dice pools am I looking for to be competent in an area, amazing in an area, etc.? I am particularly worried about messing up a social situation like trying to lie our way past corporate security and having a dice pool of 5 vs. them with much higher skills for working out if I am lying (if they're always going to blow past my defence in that area then why bother spending points on it at all? if a 5 is going to fail anyway then why not leave it at a 1?)

- Is there a 'Go big or go home' feel to the rules in play? I mean in a game like WoD using dice pool mechanics if you're in a contested situation you really should either go for high focus or not bother because any attempt at stealth for example vs. anyone observant is going to fail unless you've maxed out and a failure on 1 die is just the same as a failure on 7 dice.

- Have I understood defence vs. weapons correctly. I would have Armour Jacket 8/6, helmet +2/+2 and ballistic shield +6/+2, +1/+1 from troll, +1/+1 from Bioware armour (orthoskin?) and have an armour rating of 18/12. Someone shots a gun at me with Agility 6, Skill 6, specialty, Smartgun +2 for a dicepool of 16. Average around 5 hits. I roll Dodge vs firearms of Reaction 5 and Dodge...say 3 with specialty for 10 dice, average 3 successes. They take their two remaining hits vs my ballistic rating of 18 and deal only stun damage not physical. I then roll armour of 12 stun+9 body for 21 dice needing to beat 2 hits to take no damage. Am I right? How does anyone hurt anybody! Even if you'd not maxed defensively say body 4, armour 8/6 their 5 hits vs say 2 hits on a dodge would leave them with 3 hits vs. a damage roll of 4+6 so still unlikely to do anything or only a single point.

- What kinds of weapons/armour should I be looking for? I like the dart guns and the tasers and probably a normal pistol to deal some physical damage eventually

- What kinds of Bioware should I be looking for?

- What kinds of those little things in the gear section should I be looking for? RFID tags, Commlinks, SIN and Licenses, etc.?

- Any skills that come up all the time but aren't obvious or ones that seem important but rarely come up?

- Any qualities that your recommend? I was going to take the one that doubles essence costs for cyberware as an explanation for why my guy never touches the stuff but what about other positive or negative ones?

I build characters very visually, I picture how I want them to act like in a movie scene and then try to build someone to meet that vision so, in a fight, I picture this guys being huge and hulking, armoured head to toe, ballistic shield in one hand, pistol or grenade in the other standing more as mobile cover for the faster more agile combat characters in the group. I walk forward and take the focus of the opposition, cripple and interfere with their operations while the street samurai, assassins, etc. of the group jump from behind cover to behind me, plucking a spare set of ammo from my bandolier and then gunning down the next enemy.

If you've played D&D 4e think a combination of a Defender/Controller. And a reference to D&D4e should suggest that our group does tend to do combat, I suspect we'll have Deus Ex and/or Matrix style gunfights probably once every 2 sessions and general investigating/stealth/talking/hacking/etc. filling in the rest of the space with maybe short sharp fights like a quick fist fight down an alley to shut an informant up.

Have I totally missed the point of the game? Am I falling into newbie traps (like: LOL, high Body! You want XYZ to be a good tank!)? Are there glaring flaws in my ideas?

just a bit of stuff, combat. some of its right, but in order to roll dodge, you must spend an IP for full defense otherwise its just base reaction. taking damage. if he SHOT at you you always use ballistic no matter if its P, or S damage. and no, if they have 5 hits, and are using a pistol, thats a total of 10 damage 5 base + 5 hits. if they have good ammo mabye 11. your hits on your defensive rolls reduce the damage by 1 per hit. remeber as well bullets have an arm. pen. reducing your armor.

I would look into mabye at least wired reflexes or move by wire system if you want to be at least semi good in combat. (not all cyberware is cut off arm for cyber arm) and (synaptic boosters are 80k per rank)

invest in muscle toner. idk if restricted gear quality is available to you, if it is TAKE IT, its amazing. as it lets you take something up to ava. 20. .

for bioware, sleep regulator, cerebral booster are both good ones for what you seem to want. synthicarium is a must at its cost. and platelet factories for that damage mitigation would be very nice. Enhanced articulation and an adrenaline pump may be something you want to look at.

also go SMG, it is a one-handed wep, and would work better, pistols are a nice secondary.

Ill get back to you one some of the other things.

ok messed around my chummer a bit, you can get 9 Bod, 4 agi, 5 REA, 3 INT, 3 Char, 4Log, and 3 WILL with about a 3 EDGE. thats maxed at 200 bp, then 50bp leaves you at 80 bp left, (not counting any positive or negative qualities)

and yes, SR encourages HIGH dice pools in areas you want to be good at, not good all around, maybe you just want to let the groups face talk, my troll tank/gunbunny never talked unless he HAD to, by no other option. usually if the Johnson talked to him, he pretended he did not understand English. lol. also damage compensators would be another good bioware for you. R4 for 12 availability.

EDIT: biggest flaw I see is that for 400 bp, (I HATE BP builds) you want to be good at to many things, focus on, either combat first, drug making second or vice versa imo. if you want a will of 5, drop the CHA and just do not talk a lot lol.

also just my 2 cents, banning magic is stupid, I can min/max just as easily without it if I wanted. and tanks are easier to make imo with magic :3. (adpets ftw)

Ok, thanks for the response.

Magic's out, whether or not it's really the problem or not is not relevant as the rest of the group have convinced themselves it is.

Dodge doesn't do a lot unless I'm investing actions into it, ok, useful.

You're saying it is realistic to just entirely drop Charisma and just stay silent when necessary.

So guns do a fair bit more damage then, it looks like Body is more important than armour for taking a hit then as it's not modified by stuff so Bone Density Augmentation > Orthoskin?

How does muscle toner let you get availability 20? It says (ratingx5)R so if I get it at rating 2 that's availability 10 with availability 12 being the limit I can't get higher than that.

Is Synthcardium just good generally because it's such a cheap way of boosting Athletics or is it actually integral to being tough and I'm just not seeing it? Platelet factories look damned good.

Just noticed the Ares Supersquirt gun for drug delivery? Is it any good? I'm not sure I like the idea of running around with a squirt gun from a visual point of view.

Let's say I'll focus on combat with skills to manufacture my own toxins/drugs as a secondary thing.

I havent played much with the chems and drugs, so idk there.

I meant the restricted gear quality lets you get the R4 toner. I looked it up, and its not in the SR4 corebook so whoops lol.

armor is always useful. )

yes, synthcardium is exactly that

if you have the money combining orthoskin+bone lacing/den would be the best. yeah personally I would tell you to go for aluminum lacing. ( it just covers your bones) you can also equip your armor with an auto injector (if you want to use your own drugs in combat)

the charisma thing, depending on how your GM makes it, usually unless your on your own and being interrogated as in, your meeting Johnson or something, your groups face will handle the talking, your guy would resemble a bodyguard. and even if you put those points into that 5-6 dice pool of social skills, if your being interrogated properly your gonna rat. it MAY get you past a cop in the street, but most of those can be bought off in SR anyway.

My responses in bold font.

I like a lot of what taek said, though the 1s are debatable pilot ground-craft I would say yes, although shadowing, first aid, are meeeh. imo. also make one of your armors non conductive at R6. (just in case they have SnS ammo) disguise is also debatable. with 400BP making fleshed out chars like this can be hard and dangerous. (why I prefer the karmgen). also put a spec in the automatics for SMGs or machine pistols. and try to get that one more point in WILL for a 5 and for +2 to your stun track. (which will with high armor be taking the most hits.)

Like I said, the 1's are optional things that I like to have to flesh out the character a bit, and what I as an evil GM^TM will regularly have characters have to deal with. As for disguise, depends on how much of a jerk your GM is with the whole people trying to find you after you do a job. I didn't specialize Automatics since I wasn't sure which he'd prefer, but either SMG or machine pistols is an acceptable route. Just depends on whether you prefer a bit more subtlety or a bit more dakka.

Also, lean on your GM/group REALLY hard to get them to let you use Arsenal and Runner's Companion. There's a lot of possibility to make your troll that much more awesome with them.

as a troll, dakka is usually the prefered :3 lol. but yes I like the fleshing out as well, but I honestly would not do it in a BP build of 400 or less. just one of those things.

that being said, that 1 point in the skills will not make much of a difference, if one spends enough time on most of them then it will work eventually with 4 dice. if they are limited 6 dice will not turn out much better :/ also I always re paint and pattern my helmet (closed helm) after each run :3 lol even without it people do not see much of my facial features due to hats and shades.

if he allows RC and arsenal, oh my lol. troll went from scary to terrifying.

Of interest, what in the runner's companion and arsenal would be the key things to look for?

I'll mention it to the GM but he'll want me to point out exactly why I want to use those books.

in runners compainon you get accsess to the restricted gear quality, which allows you one piece of gear up to 20 availability per rank, (max 3 ranks) and some other cool qualities, arsenal is mostly your gear, weapons and armor, like the form fitting full body armor or FFFBA. and some nice armor enhancements, ( you could start with heavy miltech armor using both of these lol) also, if the armor is not an option (it usually is not an option) you can use it for a pain editor, R4 muscle toner or other nice little goodies.

The big things from Arsenal would be Form Fitting Full Body Suit (Arsenal 48), Splash Grenades (Arsenal 37), DMSO (Arsenal 82) and the drugs section (starts at Arsenal 72 I think).

Runner's companion just opens up a ton of different positive and negative qualities. The big positive quality is Restricted Gear (lets you get up to avail 20 on up to 3 pieces of gear, RC 101). But yeah, the 1's are my my personal grab bag of fleshing out that you can avoid for now.

oh, btw, when you start keep me posted on what yall do and how your guy is doing :3 and anything funny or epic that happens lol

Will do, not sure when we'll start as we've got a current (WoD mortals ) game going on for a few weeks more anyway.

As you may have guessed this is more exciting than that to me...

Welcome to the shadows
Keep your head down, your promises straight and your back free and I'm sure we can get along.

Having a tank in SR is not so much missing the point of the game, as it is missing the point of guns, not getting hit at all is generally the better option. Especially with nasty things like wound modifiers and the painfully slow healing process... Magic can only patch you up so much, even less with your body full of ware.
* On that note you should talk with your GM about reconsidering the magic stuff, cutting out a large chunk of what makes the setting unique is never a good thing.

In my book your character would stand out as a sore thumb and would need Social skills just to not get shot on the spot (Sidenote: the influence group got one or two skills that's very situational, it's generally better to just pick up etiquette, con and/or negotiation seperately)

Speaking of not getting your head blown off, A runner lives and dies by the strength of his Fake SIN, legal SINs have a lot of pesky paper trail which makes your life a living hell if you get caught using your real identity.
- If you're from a wealthy family the SINner quality makes an awful lot of sense unless you were somehow stricken from the record
- Have atleast one good fake SIN, backups are recommended aswell, The SINless and Criminal SINs have less rights then a stray dog.
- Don't forget to get licenses for all the restricted/illegal gear you got!

Now I'm go off a limb and assume that you're playing a more cinematic style of game, but in the case you're not. Low profile is a very important concept. Now you said you like to visualize, Imagine you're big hulking guy clad in full body armor walking down a crowded street in the middle of your town. How would people react?

I recommend keeping a low profile gear set around and only break out the body armour when you're going in deep.

As for your character, was he born a troll? is his family trolls? (some humans transform in their puberty)
Think a bit about those circumstances, trolls are very much subject to prejudice with the common person viewing them as dumb uncivilized thugs. Which is a generally true statement as most trolls are hardpressed to find acceptance in academic circles, high society or the like.
Which means a lot of trolls suffers from poor education and social rejection.
If you are from a family of trolls, how did they claw their way through all the barriers?
If they're human, maybe they reject you because you're a troll.
What I'm saying is that rich as a troll doesn't ring true in the sixth world...

Sidenote: Knowledge skills related to your upbringing might be a good choice, even if you didn't care for business economics you've must have picked up atleast something!

That's all I got for now...

yeah, make sure to clear it with the GM if he wants you to drop the points into social skills. if need be 2 points into etiquette is not to bad. (though this is a point I would not force as a GM, a 2 dice difference is well... yeah. that being said some people want you to have it for two reasons) 1. it takes if ever so slightly, those few points away from min/maxing a char. and fluff reasons. although from your description your char does not seem to be good in social situations. just ask your GM. but like Lionheart said, (forgot to mention it as its second nature to me now lol) have that lined coat ready to throw over you FFFBA for walking the streets, alot less attention to you. though if your main armor is an armor jacket, its fine to not have the extra set, just leave the shield behind

The reason the Super Squirt is good is because you can put Pepper Punch in it (or narcoject, but PP is a legal alternative). Without access to Arsenal's Capsule Rounds the Super Squirt and gas grenades are going to be the only way you can use chems in a combat scenario. I like PP because it's Power 7 and gives Nausea (doubles wound modifiers and if Power > Willpower, incapacitates target) and is street legal and cheap. If your GM relents and allows you to use Arsenal, go with Automatics and take Capsule rounds with PP. You can also look at Slab, one of my most favorite combat chemicals - it takes someone out of the fight for at least an hour unless they fully resist the GM-decided Power (I suggest 8 - it's a medical drug specifically used to put people under for intense surgery, not a normal Power 6 drug).

Get a chemsuit to wear under/over your armor and a gas mask. When you don't want to be as suspicious get a R6 Respirator also - respirators are common enough that you won't attract attention and it'll break up your profile, making positive identification more difficult for your opponents.

EDIT: Also, take ranks in the Chemistry skill and invest a little in your Logic. You make a Chem + Log (12, 1 hour) Test to create chemicals at home with your own stuff, and if you buy a Shop for 5k you'll pump out ten doses for 1/10th the cost of one dose, making you not only very self-sufficient but also making you very useful to the group. The same skill and Test applies to drugs as well, and if your GM allows Arsenal you're able to get ridiculously good temporary stat increases through drug use, assuming you can manage the Stun damage when you come off them.

A simple combination would be Cram and Jazz, netting you a +2 Rea and +2 Initiative Passes. IP increases with Magic and Technology specifically don't stack, and is intentionally listed in their effects (Improved Reflexes spell and Adept Ability, Wired Reflexes, Synaptic Boosters, and other things like them specifically state they don't stack) but that phrase is not present in the Drugs section. P4MO is also ridiculously good, as are others (Betameth, Novacoke, many others), but some only if you can handle the stun drop-off.

Additionally, you can sell some of your excess drugs you make and potentially make a million nuyen in a few days (Factory, teamwork, a few other modifiers, and using P4MO as the cash-cow can result in 298,800 a day).

Ugh...

GM has changed his mind. We're using the PACKS system because 'balance'.

Except I now can't make my character.

None of the Gear Kits I want have only Bioware and as I won't use Cyber it seems I'm going in 100% unmodified. I also can't run as a non-lethal (stun+special effects), ranged tank.

The Tank attribute kit is built around using Strength and melee attacks and is about as smart as my left foot.

Thanks anyway guys.

True balance only happens when every individual piece in itself is unbalanced.
balance isn't a checklist, it's a complex dance in how different parts interact with eachother.

My condolences... Your GM simply seem afraid of player freedom

If I remember correctly, the rules for chemistry and drugs are in Arsenal. At least expanded rules. Also the rules for demolitions?


You also might want to consider that tanking doesn't really work well in Shadowrun. It gets especially difficult without the extra damage boxes and armor that cyberlimbs give. You can get higher armor by wearing something like SWAT armor everywhere, but you will probably have some difficulties blending in (depending on the GM).


I haven't looked too much into PACKS, but it looked more like a tool for new players or fast character creation than a good way to get the character I wanted. You may also want to look up the PACKS platinum that should be floating around somewhere. It was the original version of PACKS, and was released for free after some disagreements about contracts. Either way, don't worry about the wording of the PACK you take, just look for good armor and high body. If your GM allows it, it's a least a few more options.

Using the PACKs system only, is basically saying you're are balancing the game by making everyone equally useless.

The PACKs system is LITERALLY not ment to be used on its own, but as a tool to make character gen faster. There are major flaws in the system, like the fact that the exotic weapon skill PACKs are for the weapons: Sais, Foot Blades, Net Guns, Bolo, Flamethrower, Cat o' Nine Tails, Kusarigama, Garrote, Crossbow. But the only exotic weapons available through PAKCs are: Monofiliment Whip, Pole Arm, Dart pistol, Dart rifle, and Pain Inducer. Basically you can get skills for weapons that you can't buy or buy weapons you can't

There are other glaring failures of the PACK system, like the Brawler gear kit gives you two Chain Shirts. Why would you buy to chain shirts? The martial artist gear pack gives you katanas, swords, staves, bows, shurikens, and throwing knives. But the martial art skill packs are just unarmed combat, and there is no skill PACK that has bows.

Anyways, in case your GM changes his mind here are some tips I was going to make prior to seeing that:

For dice pools I usually think in ranks of: <4 unskilled, 5-7 okay, 8-10 good, 11-15 very good, >16 amazing. There are builds were you end up with dice pools of 30+ with a 400BP, but obviously you aren't looking to do that.

I don't think SR is like WoD with the "Go big or go home". SR is more about planning you runs and dice pools are just to excute the plan. The more skills you bring to the table the more options you have for plans. But since you are planning everything out you have time to take into account your ability at the skill. If the plan is for your hulking troll to pretend to be a janitor to sneak in, having a dice pool of 4 is do able. You might need to buy a uniform, have the hacker add your fake SIN to the buildings system, have another team member create a distraction outside the building while you are going through the security checkpoint, stuff like that. SR is about trying to get the job done with the tools available. If all you bring to the table is getting shot (tank) and drugs that is all you will ever do. So think about what else you want to do, if you only have 4 or 5 dice it is vastly better than 0 or 1.

As for weapons, if you want to use drugs and toxins your options are really only the exotic weapons like the Squirter and Dart guns. You might want to reconsider being melee, but instead of punching people use slap patches to apply drugs to your victims.

Bioware you should get, Synaptic Boosters would be the best, but are going to use 50% of your money. You might be better getting extra IP from drugs. I would suggest Orthoskin and Bone Density for tanking. Adrenaline Pump isn't a bad idea, but you would be better waiting to get a pain editor after the game starts (18F, can't start with it). To save BP on attributes you could get Cerebral Boosters. If you are going to use a lot of drugs and toxins as weapons I would definately get Toxin Extractor.

Without Runner's Companion your quality options are limited. Sensitive system is good and fits your story or an allergy to gold or some other metal. An addiction would also be good. For positive qualities, High Pain Tolerance or Toughness is great for tanks. Resistance to Pathogens/Toxins or Natural Immunity is good for your drug background.

Skills that I think are overlooked: Personally all the characters I make have Perception 2, Shadowing 2, Palming 1, and Demo 1 at least. Perception is obvious I think. Shadowing, like Taeh mention, allows you to do information gathering (like stakeouts). Palming is great for sneaking weapons into places. And I always take demo because most problems can be solved with enough explosives.

Now, if your GM changes his mind (about the PACKs thing) and allows Arsenal and Runner's Companion. You will want to get some capsul rounds. Read through the Arsenal drugs, specifically looking at the drugs that you can highball to reduce the drawbacks. Also get some Form-Fitting Body arrmor, that will increase your armor bonus from 18 to 21. Also taking a martial art would be good, going back to my comment about going melee and using slap patches.

In Runner's Companion I would look at the negative quality Prejudice (maybe against obvious cyberlimbs). The positive quality biocompatability might be nice if you are not going to take any cyberwear. Family Name fits your story.

As for the PACKs system, you will need to rethink your character. There isn't a way to build the character you want effectively with the PACKs system... or any character really. I would talk to your GM about that.