I've recently been thinking about SR4, it seems to have a reputation of being more transhumanist than previous editions. I must be missing something, because I don't really see much in SR4 that is any more or less transhumanist than previous ones, so I thought I'd ask here to see what I'm missing.

To me transhumanism is about exploring what it means to radically change our human body, whether that be through body-swapping (a la Eclipse Phase) through downloading a human brain to a computer, to achieving immortality or whatever. Secondary to transhumanism to me, but still important are ideas about what happens in a post-scarcity society, the implications of immortality on the need to procreate, what happens when you clone a mind and that sort of thing.

So, Shadowrun does touch on some of those themes a little... there isn't much more radical that you can do than scooping out a brain and putting it in a cyborg body, or becoming a cyber-zombie. But these things have been in previous editions, I think Cyberzombies may have been in 2nd ed, but were definitely in 3rd. Not sure about cyborgs, but the difference between a cyborg and a serious cyberzombie is a bit academic. Even if cyborgs are fully new in SR4, that's just one area, and not one that I've seen many people explore.

Immortality (well, Leonisation) has been around for ages, Nanites were happening in 3rd Ed (sort of), Otaku were a very small jump from being technomancers....

So, what I'm beginning to think is that SR4 has modernised quite a lot compared to 3rd Ed, with wireless technology, the fall of the Japanocorps, the rise of Horizon and that sort of thing, but that the handle that gets hung on the modernisation is 'Transhumanism'.

What do you think?

I haven't heard this reputation, and no, I wouldn't say it's transhumanist.

"We're in the minority. Runners who are not jacked, rigged, or wakened. We live by our guts and wits."
- Jazzman Harker, Shadowrunner


The above quote is from First Edition. So Shadowrun, like the cyberpunk portion of its heritage, was dealing with transhumanism before the term became as commonly used as it is now. Shadowrunners are essentially transhuman in what they are and do. The magic side of Shadowrun only gives another way that people can become more than human.

But while the Jazzman Harkers might be the exception to the norm among shadowrunners, shadowrunners themselves are the exception to the norm everywhere else. Shadowrun doesn't really look at transhumanism on a macro scale (although there are little things, such as a bit of 'ware being fairly common, and everyone being immersed in AR as a matter of course). Instead, it looks at the extreme outliers, and how they deal with the fear, jealousy, alienation, adulation, and other reactions to them, as well as how they deal with having superhuman abilities in a world that hasn't quite adjusted for their presence yet.

There is really a glut of things to explore, if you are interested in exploring the transhumanist themes of the game. For example, maybe your street samurai got a sleep regulator and a mnemonic enhancer, thinking it would be great to only need three hours of sleep a night and not have to struggle to remember things like people's names. Only he finds that he has no idea what to do with that extra free time, and that a mnemonic enhancer really sucks for someone who does violent things for a living, and has those brutal memories in perfect detail now. Or maybe the face of the team is like the before/after picture on page 51 of Augmentation. He used to look slovenly and unattractive, now he is buff and gorgeous. So he is all about partying and being a bit of a man-slut, but the insecurities from his former life are still there, under the surface.

It depends on (a) what parts of the Sixth World you go to, and (b) how broad your definition of Transhumanism is.

Is "Transhumanist" something that someone/thing is, or is not? Does getting a pair of cybereyes or a headware commlink make you transhuman?
Is there a minimum Essence lost to Augmentations requirement to be transhuman?
Are you only transhuman if you have at least one of every four kind of aug? (Cyber, bio, gene, nano?)
Does being Awakened qualify as transhuman?
Or is it a state of mind, a philosophy subscribed to? Are you only Transhumanist if you identify yourself as such?
Is a transhuman someone who gets cybernetics, bioware, genetic therapy, or nanoware for no other reason than cosmetic appeal, or even just because they can?

I think Transhuman compared to Cyberpunk, maybe it's the setting?

I guess I'm in the dark here

Honestly, it's a blurred distinction to make. There's no 'easy' answer, really. Cyberpunk and Transhumanism, as genres, are by nature very, very closely related.

I guess so.

Perhaps I had picked up the wrong impression, it wouldn't be the first time.

Thank you

In the first editions of Shadowrun, few people would get more than a datajack, unless they had something to fix. It was in line with 80s cyberpunk where 'ware made you less human.
In SR4, anyone can walk into a shop to get some cyberware or bioware installed, and many people do. It's closer to post-cyberpunk where 'ware is just a tool.

There are hints of transhumanism (the brain in a jar and some extreme body mods) but I'd say it's more postcyberpunk than transhumanist.

-Artificial Intelligences can be citizens (only a few so far though)
-Full body cyborgs a'la brain in a jar
-Completely jacked in individuals living artificial lives while lying in a hospital bed / sensory deprivation tank.
-Changelings with strange body changes that looks like 80's sci-fi movie mutants
-People with multiple cybernetics arms bristling with guns and equipment
-People who replaces their entire world view with Simsense to change their real world view into ANYTHING they want
-Possibility for Stirrup interfaces to let people 'switch' or 'borrow' another persons body (highly experimental?)
-Using simsense to feel and experience what another person experiences (switching sensations during sex)
-Fully human looking drones to rig a'la 'Surrogates' comic/movie
-Ally Spirit Sex
-Possession mages using other peoples bodies
-Adepts with superhuman abilities transcending what normal people can do
-Pornomancer magician with Orgy Spells are the kings of the kinky parties
-Religious magicians channeling 'GOD' through themselves
-Body modifications so that you could literally look like an animal (the furry's dream)
-People who BECOME vehicles through Rigger Adaption interfaces...

Dunno, that COULD be called transhumanism

Short answer: yes, with an 'if.'
Long answer: no, with a 'but.'

Shadowrun (4E) is a transhumanist setting, but extremely early on the transhumanist curve. Augmented Reality is really the critical point here. People live their daily lives in a puree of reality and information, and the result is a world in which people are almost, but not quite, pilots of their own bodies.

Cyberpunk retains the existential question "What is (still) human?"

Transhumanism has answered, "It doesn't really matter."

Main mechanical difference I've seen in cyberpunk works versus transhumanist works is that usually in cyberpunk, there is always a cost of getting augmented. Not just in dollars, but in body, soul, and mind.

In transhumanist works, the altered state is assumed to be the default. There's usually nothing like "essence loss" or such.




-k

Didn't the concept of cyberware-eats-your-soul originate in Cyberpunk 2020 as a balance measure?

Pretty much, but SR spent an awful lot of effort on fluffing out that part

It's also a recurring theme of Cyberpunk works.
Corporations eat your soul, the Sprawl eats your soul, the cyberware eats your soul and so on.

om nom nom.

I agree, but my question was specifically about SR4, and almost all of those things were possible in previous editions.

That said, things like ally spirit sex and pornomancy, I consider to be more fantasy than transhumanist, and things like cyberware and AI seem more cyberpunk.

Just thoughts though.

I guess so... but what is post-cyberpunk?

Ok, interesting. Do you think there is a continuum with cyberpunk at one end and transhumanism on another? or is it more a case of "We're off the cyberpunk track now, and just started rolling down the transhumanist one".

In either case, you rekon AR was the defining moment of change?

So Shadowrun is definitely more cyberpunk due to essence?

It's not just augmented people - technomancers are experimented upon, and awakened characters are alternately feared and envied. Shadowrun is at a point where the transhumanism is relatively new - the downside is in large part because they haven't worked out all of the bugs you, and also in large part because the larger society has not yet adapted to, nor embraced, the new technologies (and new beings, such as changelings, metahumans, the awakened, technomancers, and sapient critters).

So Shadowrun is kind of like cyberpunk infused with a bit of transhumanism - in the sense that being different exacts a price, but there is a hint that eventually, all of this new stuff will get swallowed up and become part of the new norm. I wouldn't get hung up on two vague labels, though. Shadowrun gets called transhumanistic more, because the term is used more nowadays.

Mad Max with magic and cyberware =P

I think that Cyberpunk might have been a sort of fringe venture into the transhumanist space, born from a time before the relevant technologies were fully realized. Cyberpunk suggests a certain dirtiness to the man-machine interface, an introduction of the fundamentally inhuman to the human, whereas transhumanism applies a certain "we are what we make of us" model instead.

This is where I draw the line between SR4 and previous editions. SR4 suggests that people are their technology, while earlier editions imply that people pollute themselves for power. It's a fine distinction, but I think it holds.

It's a long, complicated converastion, and there's no "correct" answer to this.

But my take... It's about the attitude and outlook not just about body modification, but about society and the future.

Cyberpunk has no hope. The world is dark and bleak and soul crushing. Modifications are fairly horrible, but sometimes necessary. There are people who "fight the power", but they're a minority and they're likely to ultimately fail.

Transhumanism is more hopeful (Not hopeful in and of itself, but more hopeful). Body modification isn't scary, and it's a way to transcened. You can use this transcendation to overcome.

That's my short and very, very abbreviated take on things anyway.

Bull

Then I would say that Shadowrun is Transhumanism because it HAS hope through the actions of the runners, the stories, the runs and the fighting against the Horrors as an example.

The future is dark where a few initiated individuals KNOWS that the horrors are coming but no-one is sure about WHEN. The longer they are staved off and the better and more advanced humanity becomes the more hopeful the future will become.

The old 80's grimdark cyberpunk anti-establishment is kind of gone and is moving on with the technology and starts to blend with transhumanism.

I disagree. because while the runners can make their own lives a little better... They can't change the world. And really, the only reason most runners ever make their own lives any better it GM fiat and the fact they are PCs. Logically speaking, no runner should ever survive more than a couple runs before he's dead or in jail for life.

*shrug* It's an old argument. But Shadowrun is grounded in 80's Cyberpunk, and I like it there. I'm less of a fan of the more modern transhumanistic, post-cyberpunk movement. There are games out there for that, if i want to play that. Eclipse Phase, for one. When i play Shadowrun, I want classic 80's style cyberpunk.

Bull

No, Shadowrun ist not more transhumanist than for example D&D or any other RPG for that matter.
It lacks the rules dealing with this part. Ware is in 99% of the cases just a bonus to the dicepool with no drawbacks.

The essential part of a transhuman RPG would be this section. To take a close look at the sacrifices you make becoming less human.

Shadowrun is a classic sifi/fantasy RPG. It is not really cyperpunk and it is not really transhumanism for those elements aren't in the rules.
A lot of people think it is enough to have some word written in the introduction to make it fit some genre. But thats like writing screwdriver an a hammer, won't change the hammers functionality.

The best example for this is probably vampie the masquerade. There is no RPG out there which is less what it tells you it is than this one.

Of course you can use those elements. But you can also make shadowrun a totally sword and magic RPG if you choose the surrounding right.

This of course depends on how you as the GM and players view the game world.

I'm not talking about the individual runners but also the old missions in regards to Dunkie and the annoying clownface elf. Runners DID help affecting the world and the corporations help pushing technology further to AID in reaching transhumanism through sheer corporate greed.

This can of course blow back in our faces with huge corporate 3rd world war where the 'game world' is pushed back to be rival factions all over the place when the Horrors arrive instead of a (more or less) united humanity.

In the end it all depends on how *I* or *YOU* view *your* game.

Cyberpunk was the future the 80s were afraid we would get. Postcyberpunk is the future we think we might have. It's not as dystopic as cyberpunk, and the technological advances (and especially cyberware) aren't (so much) alienating and soul-eating, but just plain cool.
A good example of post-cyberpunk is Ghost In The Shell.

But there is still Essence, so there is still a cost to cyberware and bioware. Things like Nanites are temporary measures, and genetic infusions are temporary with a chance of going horribly wrong.... I guess what I'm saying is that I still see plenty of prices being paid, which suggest that there is pollution of the body.

To be more cyberpunk and more transhumanist it would need more sacrifices? Essence is one sacrifice in my view, is that not enough? what else ould make it more 'punk?

No, transhuman is about being MORE human. Cyberpunk is about being less. SR4 did take out some of the cyberpunk sacrifices, but it didn't add any of the real transhuman 'extensions of being'.

No, it's more about improving (and maybe changing) the human mind and body - it's not said or desired that the result of that process resembles a human body of today.

Yes. I didn't say 'more human *body*'. It may be that the most 'human' thing doesn't have a body.

I see

? As I understand it, transhumanism is fundamentally about transcending the limitations of the body (possibly any body). I don't see that we disagree. My point was that Irion seemed to say the opposite (unless 'sacrifices' and 'less human' referred to a non-transhumanist perspective, I guess).

It is and it isn't. What I like is the fact it's not taken as a whole-genre concept and is in fact a social movement that exists in the Sixth World, pushed by corps like Evo. So not only does it change from game to game, but also the company (pun intended) you keep. Maybe Grill with his buggy wired reflexes lives in a cyberpunk world, but his neighbour Shine has the very latest nanoware augmenting his thinking to a more-than-human level, and uses life extension treatments to stay young, he's transhuman.

I think it's also about the outlook each character has too. Shadowrun, to me, has always been about the arms race, the competition and the need to stay SotA at all times. If you're not at the bleeding edge, you're dead (well, not that severe. Hopefully.) If you invest in some body mods that make you Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger (unts unts unts unts) just for the fact of survival, that's cyberpunk. If you do it without being a part of the race in the shadows, and just do it so you can be better, that's transhumanist. Shadowrun, as a setting, has the potential to be both.

I don't think the two genres have to always be on opposite sides of the spectrum. Transhumanism often involves a "price", too - it's just that the price tends to be on a more macro scale, and is more of a "trouble in paradise - guess this new mod/tech/whatever has some hidden drawbacks" kind of thing.

I agree Shadowrun has elements of both. Look at Augmentation. They have the short blurb before the cyberware section with that guy bawwwing about how he has too much cyberware, but they also have that "before and after" picture of how some guy was transformed by bioware, and the genetech section has a grinning, young-looking man celebrating his 72nd birthday.

Shadowrun has always been transhumanist to a degree, pre SR4. The tagline was: "Where man meets magic and machine", and there was plenty of questions about how both cyber and magic could strip away your humanity. Really, the concept of "ascension" is usually linked to mystical schools, but it's no fundamentally different than transhuman "singularity" concepts.

This all vanished when SR4 came into place. SR4 is no longer a view of the future, it's a mirror of the present. It assumes that technology won't change us much more than it already has, and magic as a vehicle to transcendence is largely ignored.

This, in the end will be a personal opinion from each individual player of the game.

How would *I* as a human being start to think when I have fully cybernetic replacement eyes that are 10 times more efficient than the ones I have?

How would I view others of my kind when I have six cybernetic limbs with multiple tools so that I can function like a human swizz army knife?

Or for that matter have the ability to peer into another world or even travel there with my 'soul'?

It is not a simple yes or no answer.

This entire discussion is solely a matter of personal opinion. That said, SR4.5 doesn't really assume much in the way of transhuman elements that weren't present in earlier editions. Cyberware and bioware are old hat, changelings wander the streets without incident, and the only new item-- cyborgs-- are more a plot device than a potential playable PC type. Heck, brains in a jar have been around since Threats or Threats 2.

True, It would be nice with some fleshed out parts in regards to many of the human/mental/interactive parts or the game.

The Psychological effects of cyberware
-The Essence Effect
-Mental effects of having more senses than the usual 6?
-You know Kung-Fu...

The current social reactions to cyberware
-What exactly is a 'freak' in 2070
-Reversed social modifiers? (how does cybered individuals tend to react to 'meatbags'

The psychological effects of being a magician
-You need only to speak a word and you can fly at (F12) 86 km/h
-Luminous beings are yours to command
-You have a magical sexbot at your beck and call...

The psychological effects of being an adept
-You ARE Bruce Lee
-Fluffy pillows are anti-tank missiles in your hands

The psychological effects of being a Changeling
-You are not only a Troll, now you can stick to ceilings too...
-Magicians smagichians, anything magical close to you are just as mundane as you...

The psychological effects of BEING a computer
-I see the worlds Matrix, like a spiders web I sit in the center...
-It is not a machine...it is a living breathing THING...

Even the core metahumans could be fleshed out more. What is it like to be a head and a half taller than everyone, or to walk through a crowd where everyone is taller than you? To have most chairs be too small for you, and need a stylus to use an ordinary keyboard? To sit at a bar and not be able to see the countertop because the stool is not high enough? To have everyone either look down on you, or idolize you in a kind of disturbing way? To have an elven or orkish "culture" shoved down your throat which you think is romanticized medieval bullshit - but you're supposed to accept it because you're an elf/ork?

I think a lot of that should be left for the individual player to explore, although some vignettes from various perspectives would be nice to have, fluff-wise. Augmentation-wise, maybe the angst could be balanced out more - what about amputees who ar high on life now that they have cyberlimbs, or people who have been drastically transformed by bioware? More rules are definitely not needed - reactions to all of the above would vary drastically from individual to individual.

The "effect" is one simple answer. None unless the PLAYER of a particular character desires there to be one, and then it is what they choose and nothing else.

Im only 6,2'' and I have that problem with most public transport, no wonder a lot of taller people get bad backs

On the whole metahuman thing, I've been pondering on how it would be to be a human growing up in a troll or ork family, having goblinization skip you completely

For one thing, it would be awkward to watch all of your siblings physically mature faster than you - at age 14, you'll still look like a kid, while they will be almost indistinguishable from full adults.

Or worse.

Being an Elf and having human children. You'll grow old and watch them die DECADES before you do.

Well, that single human in a ork/troll family is going to see his brothers and sisters die while he's just middle-aged

People have family in the Sixth World? Luxury.

I thought the average lifespan stated in the books took into account social factors, you know with most trolls and orks being sprawl dwellers, the human kid shouldn't count on making his 50s in those conditions either...