Springing from the Imbuing thread, an idea for Perception and magic:

Magic, any kind of magic, is immediately obvious (Perception threshold 0). Magicians may learn a metamagic technique called Shrouding to make their art more subtle.

Shrouding
Prerequisite: Masking
The initiate learns to make his or her workings less noticeable. The threshold for Perception tests to notice spellcasting and summoning by the initiate becomes [magician's initiate grade - spell's or spirit's Force].

The effect of this, I hope, is that you need to be a pretty deep initiate to throw major mojo around without everyone in a five-block radius being aware of it.

1. The threshold is not 0. It's 6 minus Force.
2. What you actually mean is [6 - Force + IG]
3. This has already been proposed twice in this forum within a year or so.

I believe he is suggesting a houserule in conjunction with a new metamagic, such that even Alter Memory lights up the night sky and threatens any kind of covert operation.

One of the new splatbooks has a metamagic technique that makes it an opposed test (Int+Perception vs Magic+Initiate grade). I believe it was Spy Games.

Under RAW, yes. Hence my labeling this a HOUSE RULE. Or weren't you paying attention?

No, I'm pretty sure that what I actually wrote is what I actually mean.

Apparently not, since you comprehensively misunderstood what I'm actually proposing. Also, I originally proposed the rule you're describing.

I was under the impression, the house rule is the new metamagic. Not the new way to percieve magic
In my defense, I was just trying to be helpful -.-

How would this apply to Adepts who do not generally create effects, but have many of their powers permanently active? I could see this making adepts who like to sneak pointless since by your houserule they will be permanently glowing & obviously magical at all times.

Immediately obvious is a bit harsh dont you think? It would mean that every time you told a cop that he was looking for the wrong drones he would instantly get the mage mask out... However lowering the initial threshold to like 5 or 4-F makes noticing the hand wave a bit more feasible...
Besides Mages already light up like christmas trees on the astral don't they? attracting "their" attention...

Edit: and oh every adept would look like Dr manhattan or Human torch, I approve of that

well, I dunno if they'd light up, but every mundane around them would be instantly aware that they specifically were using magic in some way shape or form & then might likely distrust them for it, just means every adept will have to invest as a face to bluff their way out of most situations.

This sounds like a good excuse to rabble rouse in a low magic setting Seattle.. pitchforks and torches hang the mages!

Until a poor hunted magi cracks and commit suicide... by summoning a F12 Spirit

or that lone 10 Magic Mage says screw Seattle & sets off a F20 Fireball in the middle of downtown

Manage one net hit, barely hang on to consciousness. Give the order "kill all metahumans who are not me."

nah... "Kill all unawakened" since a spirit can still make a perception roll of 0 he can easily determine who is & is not awakened

I'm not sure I like this house rule, because I like the idea of low-force spells being subtle and hard to notice. This new way, you need 2 metamagics to even be able to start hiding magic use.

That said, I like the idea of Shrouding

Isn't Magic already retardedly easy to notice, anyway? I always thought it was too easy, tbh. The above rule would basically force any mage to take the metamagic from Spy Games. Because quite frankly, even Shrouding sucks.

I agree with you, magic is already way too easy to notice. Our group uses a house rule for the threshold to notice spellcasting. Our threshold is Magic - Force. This makes a powerful mage using low force spells very hard to detect.

Of course YMMV.

-D

How is this appreciably different than the 6-F that is in the books? Other than that it screws low-magic mages...

its not appreciably different until higher in the game as I can tell, when some mages could have upwards of 8-10 Magic which would give a F1 spell a Threshold of 7-9

Which metamagic are you referring to? Spell Masking just makes the spell harder to detect with assensing or "Detect Magic"

Just re-read the metamagic, and it does indeed only apply to sustained spells.

A Grade 5 Initiate with Magic 11, would be able to sling F5 spells pretty much unnoticeably.

Which I find distrubing...
Of course, I LIKE the spell noticing rules. A Threshold of 6-F is perfect, in my opinion.

You should find grade 5 initiate magic 11 mages disturbing.

That does not disturb me all that much, even if rare. What disturbs me is the concept that they should be able to cast magic more clandestinely. I disagree with that thought.

If you follow the theory that if someone practices magic a great deal becomes better at it & also can hide their magic better, it somewhat makes sense, a deeper familiarity with magic leads to a better idea of how to hide it but in theory... but thats just theory.

It is, that's why I am seriously considering a house rule requiring Assensing to notice spellcasting AT ALL--removing Perception from noticing Magic from the equation entirely. Reasoning being that Magic SHOULD go completely unnoticed if opposition has no Awakened with them and the mage does not use a visible effect (like Indirect spells).

Well, while they don't see the mojo, I'll wager that someone atleast a little familiar with magi can spot some "tells".
As in seeing the focused glare and tense stance of someone channeling mana through his body. Ofcourse with low force spells it would be harder to detect as it's not likely he'll be slumping over from the strain.

I think those small "tells" should come from having knowledge skills based on such things, and since knowledge skills can be defaulted, a good logic/intuition could help with that even if the character hasn't done intense study on the subject but rather has only picked up a small smattering here and there from experience.

This path lies MagicRun ... unless you want to allow sammies to shoot without non-sammies having a chance to notice them doing it at all ...
Seriously, I don't see why mundanes shouldn't be able to notice spells at higher force being cast. It is not like the amount of mana being channelled is subtle, or the strain on the mage's mental faculties or body insignificant.


I do not see use of magic (at least at high force) as being cinematic little mumbled incantations and finger twitchings. At force up to your Magic you are facing stun damage, at higher force you have to resist hernia popping P drain. Looking at other cases where stun damage needs to be resisted, taking punches, overclocking etc, these are not things that you can accomplish with a poker face. YMMV, of course.

To mundanes, magic SHOULD be that strange unknowable force that they fear. Gives the team a good reason to make sure to get a mage/shaman on their side.

I think it already is - the fact only their WP lies between them and being fried or whatever without counterspelling protection makes this so.

I primarily object to your proposed house rule for game balance reasons. The game is already veering heavily towards MagicRun, and given the proportion of awakened among the PCs posted on this forum, I do not feel awakened need another insta-win over the mundanes.

Well, I've never seen this tendency towards a so-called "MagicRun", so I will continue as I have until such time as I do. In fact, most times, I hardly ever see an Awakened character.

Subsonic ammunition from a weapon with an integral silencer/suppressor and electronic firing. -9 perception pool when trying to hear that it has been fired (or to locate where it was fired from, for that matter). Sure, sure, there's still te visual aspect.

That's what guns built into your cyberarm are for.

or a rifle firing from out of sight

Vehicles weapons tens of kilometers away.

Maybe keep the idea of the "shrouding" metamagic and raise the threshold to (6 + Initiate grade - Force) instead of (6 - Force) for those who master the technique.
Powerful mages would still be very difficult to detect, but at least they would have to dedicate an initiation for it. And the initiate grade is IMO a better representation of a mage's ability to mask his spells than the magic attribute, which is just raw power.

But 6+Initiate Grade will always be equal to or higher than Magic. It could be perhaps a metamagic that changes it to Magic-Force, with the option of a focus that adds to magic for the purpose of difficulty to detect only (and using it on a spell of course means they won't get to use a power focus or something similar, so that's probably a reasonable tradeoff).

still not sure how this rule would effect Adepts since they have different type of magic than Mages

They always glow like christmas trees, of course.

which seems to be an unneedless handicap to the Adept IMO

I thought that is what Masking and Flexible Signature were for?

-D

The whole issue with this thing is that due to the lack of fluff description we do not really know at what point the perception test is really allowed and called for.
It is the same thing with the perception table. It is quite unlikely that the numbers given for "person" are for picking one person out of a crowed.

So as a matter of fact I like the rules how they are. If you are hurling big powers around the create big side effects.

You can light a lighter and nowbody will see the smoke. But if you take out a flamethrower it is a different cup of tea.
I think this should also apply to magic.

The only thing I would like is a bit more specifics on how you see the magic.
For example I would say it is something visual. But the score given is for noticing it if you see it. So you do not get a roll if somebody stunbolts a guy behind you. Or the other guy is allowed to use infiltration to hide his casting..

As a matter of fact I quite dislike the idea of raising the threshold. It opens up a range where you can cast without the user side even having a chance to notice a thing.

Even mundanes can feel the flow of mana at times, and when someone channels alot of it... I guess it's like having a cold winter breeze make your spine shiver

It is appropriate that magical skills above a small Force should be noticeable. This is part of the way the game keeps itself from turning into "Magicrun".



The section Noticing Magic on page 179 of SR4A refers to magical skills. Adept powers are not magical skills. Skills in the Sorcery Group, Conjuring Group, etc. on page 122 ff. are. Adepts can't blow up armies. They can be very sneaky about their magic.

This is true, however the OP is not referring to that section, which is where my comment is coming from the OP is suggesting to make ALL MAGIC, a threshold 0 basic perception test (went back & checked the OP states All Magic), by the OP's qualifications, that means every spell, every adept power, everything is noticed by anyone within sight, now..while most mages may not have spells active all the time, most Adepts have their powers always active. which is where my comment came from.

Would make screening for magical talent a lot easier, though