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Mickle5125
QUOTE (Unwired, pg 113)
Replicate (Rating)
Replicate is a malware autosoft usually integrated into worms
so that they can multiply themselves and spawn to other devices and
nodes (see Node Movement and Accounts p. 110). In game terms, a
worm-like agent equipped with this autosoft draws on the systemís
resources to reproduce itself onto another node to which it has access,
including all the programs it has loaded, as long as these can be
copied (i.e. they donít carry the Copy Protection program option,
p. 114). The worm makes a Pilot + Replicate (Pilot x 4, 1 Combat
Turn) Extended Test to determine how long replication takes.


QUOTE (Runners Companion p. 89)
Metasapients may also purchase programs with nuyen. These
programs follow the normal rules for programs. The AI may load
them into itself, carrying them as would an agent. Loaded programs
must be run before they can be used, and take up processor
space as normal. AIs may only load and directly use Common Use,
Hacking, Knowsoft, and Agent Autosoft programs.


So, reading those two excerpts, it seems like an AI could rule the Matrix in a matter of hours through numbers alone... Is this combination really that powerful?
Neraph
I would say it is, even though I've been wanting to do it for a while now. Being able to spawn duplicates of yourself with all your programs (running) is a very powerful thing. It's even better if you buy a top-of-the-line nexus so you have a safe place for all those mini-me's to gather.

Also, be advised that the Replicate program is also copied, so replicating agents grow exponentially, not linearly.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Mickle5125 @ Oct 31 2012, 09:15 AM) *
So, reading those two excerpts, it seems like an AI could rule the Matrix in a matter of hours through numbers alone... Is this combination really that powerful?


You've replicated an AI which suggests to me that you've creates an NPC that's under the GM's control.
Stahlseele
How do you figure?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 31 2012, 09:09 AM) *
How do you figure?


Because you only get to play one character, not GOD? smile.gif
Stahlseele
Agent Smith works with Agents already . .
Probably with sprites too, not sure though.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 31 2012, 11:09 AM) *
How do you figure?


A metasapient AI is an autonomous entity.
Stahlseele
I don't see the problem? O.o
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 31 2012, 11:25 AM) *
I don't see the problem? O.o


They're autonomous. No one is commanding them and giving instructions to follow. You're only replicating, you're not inserting code that requires them to follow the commands of the original AI.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 31 2012, 09:22 AM) *
Agent Smith works with Agents already . .
Probably with sprites too, not sure though.


Agent Smith may WORK with Agents, but he is not ALL Agents (at least not until the final showdown). And even then, he did not take over the Machine World. He was merely a threat to it.
Halinn
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Oct 31 2012, 04:34 PM) *
They're autonomous. No one is commanding them and giving instructions to follow. You're only replicating, you're not inserting code that requires them to follow the commands of the original AI.

But they're you, so they act as you would. You don't spawn a completely fresh AI persona.
Dolanar
It specifically points out that due to the complex nature of the AI they cannot be copied, so by RAW...no it would not work, but sure, Houseules, why not
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 31 2012, 11:19 AM) *
But they're you, so they act as you would. You don't spawn a completely fresh AI persona.


Same baseline, maybe, but different experiences lead to different development. And as an AI, those would happen very, very quickly. smile.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Halinn @ Oct 31 2012, 01:19 PM) *
But they're you, so they act as you would. You don't spawn a completely fresh AI persona.


They are you, as of the moment you created them and they are probably aware that they are a copy. Their behavior will begin to diverge from your own immediately just from being a different node. Once again, I point out that these are autonomous entities and you have no compulsion over their behavior.

However, as Dolonar pointed out, metasapient rules explicitly state you may not copy them and Unwired was released prior to metasapients. However, if you could you would still run into the autonomy and compulsion problem with getting these forked AIs to do what you want.
KarmaInferno
Would be funnier if they were NOT aware they are a copy and get into an arguement on who is the original and who should have to follow the other's commands.


-k
thorya
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 31 2012, 01:35 PM) *
Would be funnier if they were NOT aware they are a copy and get into an arguement on who is the original and who should have to follow the other's commands.


-k


Especially when they start trying to erase the rebellious "copy".
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Oct 31 2012, 09:22 AM) *
Agent Smith works with Agents already . .
Probably with sprites too, not sure though.
Only as long as you don't mind being limited to one per node, unless each replica made this way automatically has a brand new unique access ID with it.
Lionhearted
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 31 2012, 07:35 PM) *
Would be funnier if they were NOT aware they are a copy and get into an arguement on who is the original and who should have to follow the other's commands.


-k


Reminds me of the whole Manshoon clone metaplot that went on in Forgotten Realms...
Short summary, one of the most powerful wizards alive get killed and as a result his 30 or so contingency clones awakens, each convinced they're the real one... Some of them set out to kill eachother highlander style. Some of them assume new identities forming guilds or acting as the power behind the throne, one of them moves in with the mad wizard Halaster and continues his study of magic and one even joins the guy that killed the original!
Great fun was had with that plot hook biggrin.gif
tsuyoshikentsu
You might not even know which of the copies you're going to end up us. Every night, you might end up in some lonesome, faraway node...

...or you might be... the Prestige.
BishopMcQ
Look at Eclipse Phase if you want a great way of playing with this concept. (Yes, it's not SR) Forking and Merging can get really hairy, and there are social stigmas attached to it.
Adarael
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Oct 31 2012, 04:32 PM) *
Look at Eclipse Phase if you want a great way of playing with this concept. (Yes, it's not SR) Forking and Merging can get really hairy, and there are social stigmas attached to it.


1000x this. smile.gif
Mickle5125
QUOTE (Dolanar @ Oct 31 2012, 12:25 PM) *
It specifically points out that due to the complex nature of the AI they cannot be copied, so by RAW...no it would not work, but sure, Houseules, why not


I figured they would be agents rather than full AIs. Can you tell me where it specifically says they cannot be copied?
BishopMcQ
Runners Companion, p. 90 last sentence in the "Realignment and Restoration" section.

"Artificial intelligences are intricate, dynamic programs and cannot be copied or have backups made."
Dolanar
Bishop beat me to it, but yes in the section that discusses AI's, it mentions it. Otherwise an AI player would be unable to ever be killed under any circumstance as they can make a back-up of their character after every Karma expenditure & if for some reason they die, they just immediately revert to a back-up.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (thorya @ Oct 31 2012, 12:51 PM) *
Especially when they start trying to erase the rebellious "copy".


Better yet, when they start trying to build a consensus.
tsuyoshikentsu
...So I thought you were going to link to something about Horizon, and then...

Well, tl;dr in my games everyone from Horizon now sounds like a Quarian.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Nov 1 2012, 01:12 AM) *
Better yet, when they start trying to build a consensus.


On the other hand, you could be trying to convince all of them to get off their lazy butts and do one quintillionth of a thing.
The Jopp
QUOTE
In game terms, a worm-like agent equipped with this autosoft draws on the systemís
resources
to reproduce itself onto another node to which it has access


The bolded part could curb it.

From my interpretation in draws on the Nodes resources that the AI is currently running on

You make a copy of yourself and insert it into another node but the processing is done from your main node that the AI originates from.

Basically the AI can have it's presence in two nodes at once but wit the drawback that the main node takes the processor load.
Krishach
This is an academic discussion, is it not? The GM is the GM, and can say this works even if it's unusual/rare/impossible. And a player AI character cannot take this quality for themselves, per Runners Companion, which limits player AI positive qualities.

In short, the only thing that would matter here is the justification the GM can come up with that maintains story immersion.
Dolanar
Which I mentioned in my first post, if you're making houserules, go for it, but by raw, no.
nylanfs
I as a GM would COMPLETELY allow it. I love it when players don't think of the bad consequences when making plans smile.gif
The Jopp
QUOTE (nylanfs @ Nov 3 2012, 01:13 AM) *
I as a GM would COMPLETELY allow it. I love it when players don't think of the bad consequences when making plans smile.gif


Like replicating themselves into multiple nodes and getting:

A: Attacked in all nodes at once
B: Suffer all negative modifiers from multiple nodes at once
C: Suffer negative modifiers trying to keep track on everything at once.
D: Each copy gains individual sentience and starts arguing with the player
E: They get trapped in different nodes and cannot get out
F: All of the above with extra anchovies.
WhiskeyJohnny
QUOTE (tsuyoshikentsu @ Oct 31 2012, 11:44 PM) *
...So I thought you were going to link to something about Horizon, and then...

Well, tl;dr in my games everyone from Horizon now sounds like a Quarian.


Keelah se'lai chummer.

QUOTE (The Jopp @ Nov 3 2012, 10:16 AM) *
Like replicating themselves into multiple nodes and getting:

A: Attacked in all nodes at once
B: Suffer all negative modifiers from multiple nodes at once
C: Suffer negative modifiers trying to keep track on everything at once.
D: Each copy gains individual sentience and starts arguing with the player
E: They get trapped in different nodes and cannot get out
F: All of the above with extra anchovies.


Are they going to get the potential positive consequences as well? If you're going to allow an AI to replicate, and you're going to hit them with the potential negatives, you ought to give them the benefits as well. At least, that's my nuyen.gif.02
The Jopp
QUOTE (WhiskeyJohnny @ Nov 3 2012, 06:58 PM) *
Keelah se'lai chummer.



Are they going to get the potential positive consequences as well? If you're going to allow an AI to replicate, and you're going to hit them with the potential negatives, you ought to give them the benefits as well. At least, that's my nuyen.gif.02


Of course, but in my view the possible negative consequences would outweight the advantage.

An AI Rigger with Replicate would be interesting. Talk about instant Tacnet with AI drones.

One should be able to SPOOF AI's though - at least in the sense that you could fool the sensors they use in the same way as someone is being affected by an illusion spell.
Neraph
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Nov 3 2012, 11:16 AM) *
Like replicating themselves into multiple nodes and getting:

Replicating is not being active in multiple nodes at the same time - it is the computer form of cloning. It doesn't matter if your Replicate in another node gets attacked because no other Replicants are affected by it.
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