I can't find a page in SR4A that covers the question. Then again, the index doesn't seem to ~always~ line up to what it's pointing to. Can someone list it out for me?

Example situation: I'm a mage. I've taken 2 boxes of stun damage, because of drain. Someone shoots me in the back and now I have 4 physical boxes marked off. What happens the next time I get drain? Does it stack on the stun, or does it all just track physical, since my dice pool is limited by my physical damage penalties (-2, in the example)?

You fill out the Stun boxes first for Drain, unless you're overcasting.

Also... ouch.

So, even if I have physical damage, I can still burn through the rest of my stun boxes from drain (let's say I'm not overcasting at all) without worry? And then just the highest wound penalty applies at one time?

Seems a bit unfair, that I can keep running a second damage track when no one else gets that ability. I'm sure there's some way that's ripe for abuse, and makes magic more powerful than it already is.

I wouldn't say 'without worry', but yes, that's how all damage works in SR4: everyone gets a stun track. If you replace 'drain' with 'being tasered' (or neurostun'd, or sap'd), it's the same thing. Drain is basically normal stun (or phys) damage, with the bonus of not being magically healable.

It sounds like you might be confusing the wound penalties, though: they all stack, not 'take the highest only'. This is SR4A p163 'Wound Modifiers'.

I did miss that. That seems a bit more balanced than my first understanding.

To clarify: The above mage with 2 stun boxes and 4 physical boxes is running a total of -3 dice pool to all tests?

Only a -1 actually.
You take a -1 per 3 boxes damage. So the 2 Stun Boxes contribute nothing and the 4 Physical is -1.
If, however, you have Low Pain Tolerance as a Negative Quality (-1/every 2 boxes Damage), then you would indeed have a -3 to you rrolls with the above indicated damage (-1 for the Stun, and -2 for the Physical, for total of -3).

But as you can see on p163, if it were 3 Stun and 6 Phys, that'd be -3 (stun 3/3 = -1, phys 6/3 = -2). So they are fully separate (you don't sum the boxes), but the penalties sum.

Indeed, Sorry if I was unclear.

Makes perfect sense now.

Well, I understand the math and how the numbers are applied. I won't pretend the system makes sense. (But, hey. At least it's not RIFTS, right?)

Because fighting on completely without issue until you hit a number and instantly fall to the ground does?

There's also the WOD/Exalted method, which is basically a merged multi-track system. Effectively, the boxes stack, instead of the mods stacking… except for the weird way the different 'kinds' of boxes interact.

Other methods include getting rid of damage boxes entirely and taking damage directly out of your physical stats (Traveler).

And others don't even go that far... you could for instance Stun/Wound/Incapacitate/Kill/Vaporize targets.

Does anyone feel that the damage penalties are a bit low?
Nine boxes of physical damage (almost dead) and you -3? Any house ruling ideas?

Which makes you completely unable to default on any skill where your attribute is lower then 4 and that's before modifiers... seems reasonable to me

And takes a lone star cops shooting dice pool from 8 to 5...or so.

Yeah and it doesn't make a dent in any shadow runners dice pool unless you are talking about a very low level game.

That's not a breath away from death in my book. Guess I want something grittier. Any ideas?

Well, you can get up to -6 cumulative penalties just from wounds. Add modifiers for conditions on top of that and you get a bunch more penalties (a bit less if you use the biggest modifier guideline) The very same cop would have a pesky 2 dice in total darkness (assuming thermographic vision)
Also you're assuming that they are good at the skill, our cop friend would be completely unable to chase you over a fence or keep his car from crashing.

Just double the penalties? Have you tried this?

Wound penalties from stun and physical damage stack

Sorry for the shoddy grammar... need to proof read more

Ok so then I have to shoot him AND beat him up to get him to not be able to chase me into my dark alleyway of choice:)
Nah I want that gunshot wound to the gut to mean some thing more than a third of mr five-0s dice pool!

Someone tried to make it grittier by house ruling that all physical damage also caused stun damage, thereby in effect doubling the penalty for gunshot wounds and getting stabbed in the liver. How would that work do you think?

To answer your request, Augmentation got optional rules for grittier wounds, slower healing and a table for severe wounds... Stuff like losing limbs and cardiac arrest.

Still not sure why you consider the penalties to be to light although...

how is that any diffrent than doubling the penalties, just means that stun track is also filled & a swift wind can drop you.

Stun still heals faster. The idea is that the pain is fleeting (trauma) but the damage stays on. And a 9 boxes worth of buckshot to the sternum is not a swift wind:)

I want the effect of life threatening damage to impaire the character more then a little. It's an aesthetic thing really.

no, but after getting shot by a rifle round, if you take both types of wounds at once, a swift wind will drop you, since they'd be essentially the same damage, the only difference would be that Stun weapons only do stun damage.

Take a look at the severe wounds optional rules in Augmentation. We house ruled out the Edge roll for physical damage so any time you take 7 or more damage in a single attack, something from that table happens. You'd be amazed at how much irreparable organ damage makes Mr. Lonestar consider other things than chasing you or firing back. Basically, it results in most people not continuing the fight after that point. Not because the pain (-2 or 3 from wounds) is too much but because other physical conditions (is that my liver?) leave it a bit difficult.

In the discussion I saw, it wasn't just flat doubling. The 'bonus' Stun was proposed as something like +50%, or less. The idea *is* to make the penalty larger than it would've been, certainly. But Stun goes away fast, and you can stim it, etc.

I'd suggest something a little different. Leave the way damage is applied the same, but change the number of boxes needed to take penalties.

My thought on this is leave stun alone (it's easier to push through pain than actual damage), but change the physical track to -1 per 2 or maybe even -1 per 1 box of physical damage. This would represent how much harder it is to keep going with blood pouring out of you and bones damaged or broken. I don't think I would want to play under these rules, however they would provide for the grittier play that you seem to be looking for. I would also recommend adding some of the optional rules quoted above about long-term damage and such.

-D

This seems to be what I'm looking for! Anybody tried this?

Or to represent an accurate depiction of how damage can scale, you could have the first 3 boxes as -1 then instead of -2 make it -6 for the second set then -9 for the 3rd set to represent critical injury, all in all, you're looking at -17 or higher when you get closer to death.

If you are only in the minor boxes, its only minor damage, like breaking a finger or being thrown against a wall, & you can push through that pretty easily, but gunshots & better tend to hurt more.

The problem with this is the fairly wide range of boxes that people can have. I've made characters where 9 boxes taken was only half what they had. So comparing the standard bod 3 human to that, the human would have -1 at his halfway point (5 boxes), and trolls like that would have -17 with your idea, even though relatively, they're equally far from unconsciousness (and the troll is much further from death than the human).

This is a problem. More boxes shouldn't mean higher penalties...quite the opposite.

Wait its just to count from the end! Last 3 boxes is minus 9 or whatever and then it drops so characters with lots of boxes gets a few broken finger for free. Ithink they do it like this in wod.

Perhaps instead consider a set amount of places where penalties come in, and then just do fractions on where to place them. I suggest that remainders be placed at the beginning, so taking a couple of boxes won't be immediately crippling.

Careful with this, you might end up with low-body pixies who even at full health start at a -1 or whatever.

That's not a bad thing, nerfing pixies

Just don't allow them; that is how we handle it.

you could always modify my idea by allow the penalties to come at a % of the boxes, round up or down as GM needs for their game

25% is -1
50% is -6
75% is -9

then the penalties will apply equally for a human with a 1 body & a Troll with a 50 Body.

I have not seen pixies, yet. What's wrong with them, exactly? (Or do I need to start a new thread for this, even though you all have hijacked this one... )

They get the critter power that makes them unperceivable. Not invisible, but Concealment, the one that reduces the perceptor's dice pool.

Which is not all that bad, in and of itself. After all, Perception Pools are the easiest to boost. *shrug*
But look up any thread about Broken characters and you will see why. 9 times out of 10 the broken character is either an Infected or a Pixie.
It is a lot of things, actually, that contribute to their being broken in play. We just banned them. It was easier.

Aside from concealment, they also get 100 BP worth of stat increases for the 35 they cost (a bit more if they buy off uneducated). They can also fly and use astral perception. Only loss is a (significantly) lowered max body and strength.

I was pondering the high vs. low body idea for the scaling damage issue. Everyone has a number of damage boxes equal to ROUNDUP(Body/2,0)+8 damage boxes. Make the Body/2 part the "free" damage (no penalties) but in the 8 free boxes that everyone gets start at -2, then increase the penalty from the , perhaps an additional -1 per box. That would end at -8 as when you fill the last box you drop.

Providing the "free" damage area would allow for a low body character to take minimal damage without a problem but a large troll could soak up quite a bit before suffering. But for everyone the suffering adds up very quickly once it starts.

Just another thought. (I hope my description makes sense.)

-D

I like that idea, though I might think it would work better for the lower-bodied characters if it was -5 for every other box, starting at the third box (or possibly -2 at first, -3 extra at 3rd). This would allow some room to take relatively light wounds without it hurting too much for everyone, but penalties are always significant.
Starting at the third box also means it can work for characters with neoteny, just having them go from their first "bonus" box.

This seems good and doable. The body/2 gives you penalty free boxes and then you find a suitable scale for the 8 boxes everyone has. Something like -2 to -8 as was suggested might do it, scaling every two boxes maybe. Thanks for the suggestion!

I'd also suggest that the extra boxes gained through positive qualities and cyberware be added to the body/2 set not the 8-box set.

-D

Positive qualities, yes, cyberware no.

Cyber that takes a bullet isn't going to function as well as a piece that didn't. Of course, the more boxes you have the less that individual bullet will matter, but it's certainly not going to never matter.