As a GM in other systems, I have always like throwing some random luck into things. Of course I am thinking beyond the regular rolling of skills. I am looking for something like a luck attribute. In other words how would I simulate completely random chance without actually having to think about the odds? Has someone already made guide lines for this in Shadowrun?
Here are some ideas, in no particular order ... and they are not completely thought out either.
- Player rolls their karma pool in a open test. The higher the number the better, all ones is bad. So the more karma/experince a character has the luckier they are .... or at least bad thigns don'e happen as often.
- Since the above is flawed when character have a lot of karma, what if the GM rolled as well? The GM could roll luck using the average of all the players karma pool, round up.
Any other ideas?
Full Version: How do you simulate luck?
Break out a D20 and ask the player in question, "High or low?" Depending on their answer and the die results determine luck.
Nice idea, simple to the point, but how about something that resembles the Shadowrun system already? I am not suggesting that luck has to be overly complicated, but it would be nice to have something that wasn't so generic.
Karma. Karma is your fucking luck. Jesus.
Little testy today, AH?
Edge:
Lucky SoB (8 points)
A variant of the Common Sense Edge where you don't realize beforehand that what you're doing is stupid, but you might still get away with it, as with an extremely mild version of Hand of God. Only when the GM feels like it.
Otherwise, you've got Karma Pool. And Karma. And the actual skill rolls. And since no such thing as luck exists anyway, I don't see much need for a rules mechanic to deal with just that.
Lucky SoB (8 points)
A variant of the Common Sense Edge where you don't realize beforehand that what you're doing is stupid, but you might still get away with it, as with an extremely mild version of Hand of God. Only when the GM feels like it.
Otherwise, you've got Karma Pool. And Karma. And the actual skill rolls. And since no such thing as luck exists anyway, I don't see much need for a rules mechanic to deal with just that.
A tad. 
Luck in our group is an elaborate ritual involving rolling three sixers and there is some swerve in the interpretation of the rolls. I have it written up somewhere.
I use luck rolls (d6 with declared high or low) in my games. The players can reroll such rolls, even some random chance rolls made by me, by spending a point of karma pool.
| QUOTE (Mardegun @ Apr 20 2004, 12:57 PM) |
| In other words how would I simulate completely random chance without actually having to think about the odds? |
Exactly what kind of lucky events are you wanting to have happen to the PCs? Lotteries, dates, avoiding tax audits?
Karma already covers good luck in most direct actions taken by the PC.
As a few others have said, the Shadowrun mechanic for luck is the Karma Pool.
in my games, your luck is determined by how much cold hard cash you have. if you are broke, you better roll good. in my games though 10 bucks buys alot of luck 
IMO karma represents experience, not luck.
Luck comes into play in my game by having everybody use dice. Simulates luck pretty darn well!
Luck comes into play in my game by having everybody use dice. Simulates luck pretty darn well!
I do an odds/evens roll a lot. Often when the player comes up with a question I didn't ponder in my preperation. Then, if their call matches the d6's roll, it answers their question. For example:
Player: Is the guard awakened?
GM: Shit! I didn't even think of that. It would be really nice if she were but I don't want to be an ass, so .... Odds or evens?
Player: Uhm .... odds.
GM: [die roll came up 4] The guard is awakened.
...... or .......
GM: [die roll comes up 3] The guard is mundane.
The trick is to have an odds/evens call every once in a while for no apparent reason, even when you've already decided upon the outcome. That way, the players still don't know when you're using the Rectal Extraction Method ™ and when you've actually thoght about all of this stuff before hand.
Player: Is the guard awakened?
GM: Shit! I didn't even think of that. It would be really nice if she were but I don't want to be an ass, so .... Odds or evens?
Player: Uhm .... odds.
GM: [die roll came up 4] The guard is awakened.
...... or .......
GM: [die roll comes up 3] The guard is mundane.
The trick is to have an odds/evens call every once in a while for no apparent reason, even when you've already decided upon the outcome. That way, the players still don't know when you're using the Rectal Extraction Method ™ and when you've actually thoght about all of this stuff before hand.
| QUOTE (Connor) |
| As a few others have said, the Shadowrun mechanic for luck is the Karma Pool. |
Not necessarily the kind of luck that Mardegun was asking about. I'd hope for some clarification from Mardegun before more people misread what he's asking about.
Hmmm. Luck. Some Luck are the rerolls, a la L5R. I wouldn't really count WoD willpower or Void (L5R), Karma, or even Bennies/Chips (DL/Savage Worlds) as luck.
I'd like to hear what you mean more exactly by luck. Some luck, as I've said, is player control over "random" shit, but positive random shit? Got me on that one.
Don
I'd like to hear what you mean more exactly by luck. Some luck, as I've said, is player control over "random" shit, but positive random shit? Got me on that one.
Don
Or you could screw over the Sammies/Riggers and go with an Essence test.
I'm not at my books right now, but I'm pretty sure that it's clearly stated that one of the things Karma is meant to represent is luck, as previously stated.
~J
I'm not at my books right now, but I'm pretty sure that it's clearly stated that one of the things Karma is meant to represent is luck, as previously stated.
~J
Wait a sec...
I thought getting good rolls on dice was already luck?
I thought getting good rolls on dice was already luck?
Well, you could just have the GM handle character's Karma Pools or use their Karma Pool rating as a "luck" attribute.
Personally, having Karma Pool represent the character's good fortune has always worked well for me and my players. And just because you have a huge Karma Pool doesn't mean it can always help you out either...heh.
I think Mardegun could give us a concrete example and it might make more sense, but the Karma Pool Open Test seems reasonable to me. And if he takes into account normal Karma Pool usage it won't always be a huge pool. Characters should have to spend some of those points permanently every now and again.
Personally, having Karma Pool represent the character's good fortune has always worked well for me and my players. And just because you have a huge Karma Pool doesn't mean it can always help you out either...heh.
I think Mardegun could give us a concrete example and it might make more sense, but the Karma Pool Open Test seems reasonable to me. And if he takes into account normal Karma Pool usage it won't always be a huge pool. Characters should have to spend some of those points permanently every now and again.
| QUOTE (SR3 p. 246 @ KARMA POOLS) |
| A character's Karma Pool represents his or her accumulated "luck." |
The word "luck" is mentioned a whole lot of times throughout that section. Apparently Mardegun does not want that sort of luck, however, but some other kind. I have no idea what kind, and thus cannot help.
Whenever my friends or I need to do a random luck check (I think the first time was to see if an airline lost anybody's luggage), we go with the karma pool check. The more high numbers, the better. The amount of dice doesn't matter, as long as a certain amount are above a target number (for the luggage, I just wanted to see 2's)
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| IMO karma represents experience, not luck. |
Totally agree. Good karma represents experience, karma pool represents accumulated luck.
If you're just looking for a mechanic to simulate a windfall or other random occurance, set a target number (such as 4 for 50-50 odds, then higher up from there for the really weird stuff; TN 12 for a small lottery win, for example). Then have the player roll their character's Karma Pool as an attribute. The number of successes indicate how "lucky" they were. You probably shouldn't allow a character to use Karma Pool for this test (since, duh, they already are), but you might allow the choice to permanent burn a few points to guarantee extra successes should they succeed in the newly-modified Karma Pool test.
For example, if a player has a character with 5 Karma Pool, he could choose to burn two of those to augment his "luck" roll, which would then leave him with a Karma Pool of 3 for the test. If the test fails, you might be nice and let him not have wasted the dice, but it's dependant on how hardcore you wanna be, I guess.
This kind of mechanic should not be used in combat, though -- that's the domain of Karma Pool as written. Experience is found in Skills and similiar characteristics, but Karma Pool is without doubt the "luck" factor of a character. If you're just looking for an excuse to pull some random stuff out of your ass, just do it if you think it'll make the story more interesting. If you think it'll be too much, chances are it is.
For example, if a player has a character with 5 Karma Pool, he could choose to burn two of those to augment his "luck" roll, which would then leave him with a Karma Pool of 3 for the test. If the test fails, you might be nice and let him not have wasted the dice, but it's dependant on how hardcore you wanna be, I guess.
This kind of mechanic should not be used in combat, though -- that's the domain of Karma Pool as written. Experience is found in Skills and similiar characteristics, but Karma Pool is without doubt the "luck" factor of a character. If you're just looking for an excuse to pull some random stuff out of your ass, just do it if you think it'll make the story more interesting. If you think it'll be too much, chances are it is.
I use somthing simlar to Dashifen. I use a D2 and ask my players: One or two. If I roll what they answered then what they wanted happens. And this can easily be adjusted if you don't like the 50/50 chance. Just change to a D3 or D6.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Karma. Karma is your fucking luck. Jesus. |
I love you
.
hmm... I thought I made myself clear, but I guess I didn't; my apologizes. Thanks to those who took my question serious and actually read my initial post. For example when I wrote
| QUOTE |
| Of course I am thinking beyond the regular rolling of skills. |
I thought that I wouldn't get comments like this, based on the above sentence
| QUOTE |
| Karma. Karma is your fucking luck. Jesus. |
In any case, Cray74 is right in that I am not talking about luck for players. I am really talking about random encounters and random events. Heck even Dashifens example of dealing with an unexpected situation falls into this category.
This may not make sense to people, but when I GM I like to have the players role luck. It doesn't occur often and most of the time nothing happens, but some times really cool things can come out of it. Besides I also like having people roll dice out of the blue, even when they don't know why. It gets people involved and keeps them on their toes.
I don't meant to ignore other people response, but I like Dashifens solution
| QUOTE |
| Player: Is the guard awakened? GM: Shit! I didn't even think of that. It would be really nice if she were but I don't want to be an ass, so .... Odds or evens? Player: Uhm .... odds. GM: [die roll came up 4] The guard is awakened. ...... or ....... GM: [die roll comes up 3] The guard is mundane. |
How still like the idea of involving the characters karma pool ...
So you basically just wanted random tables D&D style? Then just make some if that's how you prefer to run.
| QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime) |
| So you basically just wanted random tables D&D style? Then just make some if that's how you prefer to run. |
More than just random combat encounters, apparently. As I gather, Mardegun wants a system to let luck influence facets of encounters:
*Is a random guard awakened?
*Is it raining on the day the Elven Back-To-Nature Archer wants to use her longbow (with its all-natural gut string)?
*Was there a handy cab when the runners needed it?
And, of course, the lottery example.
If you want to involve the Karma Pool, Mardegun, take Dashifens' example and allow Karma to influence the roll like any other. High karma characters can reroll bad luck with better success. Call Karma luck or skill, the high karma characters get out of bad situations more often.
LD, wouldn't a d2 just be a coin?
Also, d1s are marbles!
Anyway, not to get too far off topic, but in that security guard example, the GM absolutely should not have been telling his players he forgot something. The players shouldn't ever ask and he shouldn't ever let them know because for the to work, the players must trust that the GM is creating the world and not forgetting things for the playing experience to be immersive and smooth.
Anyway, yeah, just use karma pool.
Also, d1s are marbles!
Anyway, not to get too far off topic, but in that security guard example, the GM absolutely should not have been telling his players he forgot something. The players shouldn't ever ask and he shouldn't ever let them know because for the to work, the players must trust that the GM is creating the world and not forgetting things for the playing experience to be immersive and smooth.
Anyway, yeah, just use karma pool.
Marbles: d1 or d-infinity? You be the judge!
A Clockwork Lime:
That is basically what I was thinking and it works great for good luck, but what about bad luck? It would be silly to roll twice. On the other hand if the player gets all ones, then that would be bad. The only problem is that as the player gains more experience, it becomes highly unlikely that the player will roll all ones ... then the opposite is true, in which inexperienced characters have a high chance of bad luck. Why 'punish' inexperienced characters?
Maybe if the GM picks two numbers, good luck and bad luck. For example player rolls 5 dice, which represent their karma pool of 5.
The GM picks 5 has the good number and 2 as the bad. The players roll 1,2,2, 4 and 5
Result: 1 good luck and 3 bad luck success = bad?
... hmmm, this doesn't make much sense does it?
Then again maybe picking a tn and rolling the karma pool is fine. >:(
Then again whenever I play with people not use to a d6 system, they always want something special to happen if they roll a lot of 6s in a row. Admittedly it is kind of exciting when you roll 6 after 6 .... I wish there were a way to use that, both for good and bad luck ... anyone still following my chain of thought?
That is basically what I was thinking and it works great for good luck, but what about bad luck? It would be silly to roll twice. On the other hand if the player gets all ones, then that would be bad. The only problem is that as the player gains more experience, it becomes highly unlikely that the player will roll all ones ... then the opposite is true, in which inexperienced characters have a high chance of bad luck. Why 'punish' inexperienced characters?
Maybe if the GM picks two numbers, good luck and bad luck. For example player rolls 5 dice, which represent their karma pool of 5.
The GM picks 5 has the good number and 2 as the bad. The players roll 1,2,2, 4 and 5
Result: 1 good luck and 3 bad luck success = bad?
... hmmm, this doesn't make much sense does it?
Then again maybe picking a tn and rolling the karma pool is fine. >:(
Then again whenever I play with people not use to a d6 system, they always want something special to happen if they roll a lot of 6s in a row. Admittedly it is kind of exciting when you roll 6 after 6 .... I wish there were a way to use that, both for good and bad luck ... anyone still following my chain of thought?
@Arethusa
Why use a coin, when you always (and I mean always) have a bunch on D6:s near by?
I also wanted to add that the reason I'm using this system is because it's easy and fast. No need for many dice or for calculating stuff.
Why use a coin, when you always (and I mean always) have a bunch on D6:s near by?
I also wanted to add that the reason I'm using this system is because it's easy and fast. No need for many dice or for calculating stuff.
After the replies getting a bit more into it, I think luck is a bad choice of words here. Something like fate or chance or seredipity or something like that I think fits more with what Mardegun is looking for.
So far I think the ideas of basing it off of Karma Pool are the best. After that it sort of depends on the circumstances really. I think perhaps if you're wanting to see if something good or bad is going to happen you could pick a TN depending on a reasonable chance of it happening to a normal guy (probably would end up being rather high in most cases...but then again, luck doesn't hit all the time). Just have the characters roll their Karma Pool against said TN.
You could take it a step farther and have a successful roll against the TN be the good outcome and a failed roll be the not good outcome. With levels of success, perhaps one success just to keep the bad thing from happening and more successes to make things really happen.
And I suppose you could allow the character to spend Karma Pool points on the roll to account for his 'luck' towards good thing happening.
So far I think the ideas of basing it off of Karma Pool are the best. After that it sort of depends on the circumstances really. I think perhaps if you're wanting to see if something good or bad is going to happen you could pick a TN depending on a reasonable chance of it happening to a normal guy (probably would end up being rather high in most cases...but then again, luck doesn't hit all the time). Just have the characters roll their Karma Pool against said TN.
You could take it a step farther and have a successful roll against the TN be the good outcome and a failed roll be the not good outcome. With levels of success, perhaps one success just to keep the bad thing from happening and more successes to make things really happen.
And I suppose you could allow the character to spend Karma Pool points on the roll to account for his 'luck' towards good thing happening.
Personally, I think serendipity should be a function of the dice and the GM, and the GM should always make it look like it's the dice. No where is it ever stated that he has to show you every roll, and, in fact, should not be showing you all of them. If you want to go by mechanics, let the dice handle it without any extra rules, because them it is pure chance.
| QUOTE (Arethusa @ Apr 20 2004, 03:48 PM) |
| Personally, I think serendipity should be a function of the dice and the GM, and the GM should always make it look like it's the dice. No where is it ever stated that he has to show you every roll, and, in fact, should not be showing you all of them. If you want to go by mechanics, let the dice handle it without any extra rules, because them it is pure chance. |
I agree completely there, but I also think Mardegun is looking for something a bit broader, that can be used outside the scope of talking with your Bartender contact to figure out what he knows. Maybe something like that the buddy of your Bartender is the guy you're looking for, you've met him once or twice and there's a chance he might be in the bar when you go to ask about him.
I think that's the kind of situation Mardegun is looking at finding a mechanic for. The dice still hold sway over everything, but I think he's looking for what to roll and a way to implement it that can be useful for those kinds of situations or questions or whatever.
When I need a "luck" roll to figure out if some facet of the world that I hadn't predetermined happens to go a character's way, I roll an open test using their Karma Pool, and improvise based on the results of that test.
I think Connor your right in that 'luck' isn't the best word for it.
I was just wondering if some generic guide lines could be created that with only a little tweaking, could work for specific situations. For example ...
1) What if a players shoots at a guy in a crowd of people (it could happen)
2) The PC misses, so what are the chances that he/she hits bystanders?
You could have the PC roll their full karma pool again the same TN as the attack. Any successes means you missed everyone ... although the GM could of course increase the tn if the crowd is really dense.
Whatever, I hope that makes sense.
I was just wondering if some generic guide lines could be created that with only a little tweaking, could work for specific situations. For example ...
1) What if a players shoots at a guy in a crowd of people (it could happen)
2) The PC misses, so what are the chances that he/she hits bystanders?
You could have the PC roll their full karma pool again the same TN as the attack. Any successes means you missed everyone ... although the GM could of course increase the tn if the crowd is really dense.
Whatever, I hope that makes sense.
Campaigns I've been in have used the following for over 10 years. We're very happy with it. It errs on the side of making adventures more interesting.
We call it luck dice. Big post in spoiler.
We call it luck dice. Big post in spoiler.
[ Spoiler ]
I like it all except for the buying Luck Dice. If anything I think the DM should make those kinda rolls on his own, based on character karma.
I agree with Dax. That stuff should stay secret. Also, I have to say, your conception of what is lucky is absolutely insane. Finding a car full of running gear that was just involved in a major crime would have me fucking running away. All of that stuff is just there to incriminate you or draw the cops in your direction.
One of the upcoming books...Johnson's BB...will have random encounter tables, IIRC. /me shivers in disgust and terror.
It's a game of the imagination... but you don't have to think.
The old Sprawl Sites book has random encounter tables IIRC. It even has mini-plot hooks and such as well, in addition to the maps and such.
It can be fun to use if you're feeling lazy or people want to play a game without any prior planning...
It can be fun to use if you're feeling lazy or people want to play a game without any prior planning...
| QUOTE (Arethusa) |
| I agree with Dax. That stuff should stay secret. Also, I have to say, your conception of what is lucky is absolutely insane. Finding a car full of running gear that was just involved in a major crime would have me fucking running away. All of that stuff is just there to incriminate you or draw the cops in your direction. |
Not to mention the possibility of pissing off the current (not necessarily rightful) owners of said gear.
-Siege
| QUOTE |
| Not to mention the possibility of pissing off the current (not necessarily rightful) owners of said gear. -Siege |
I can just picture the scene now....
Former Owners of the Gear: *watches the runner team run of with their stuff* ......Oh, they are SO dead.
luck adds to the random loot the gangers have on there bodies
Thanks ourTeam for the response, it is good to see what other people are using.
I am all for random encounter tables as they add some flavor to a session, the "variable factor" to determien if random Guard has magical talent seems a little silly.
Pitch a d20. On a 1, he's magically active and really happy working as a sec guard. But a formal system to randomly determine substantial parts of the world seems a little silly.
-Siege
Pitch a d20. On a 1, he's magically active and really happy working as a sec guard. But a formal system to randomly determine substantial parts of the world seems a little silly.
-Siege
The Dice of DOOM (TM, Patent Pending).
This is how I handle any "luck" or "chance" activities in my campaign.
I have two really large D6. (I mean REALLY huge die.) One is blue, and the other is yellow.
Before rolling, the players and I assign various meanings to the dice.
Example - My player (with no athletics or climbing skill) has closed his eyes and slid down a rope between two buildings. Below him is a massively charged electric fence. My player has not made hsi default rolls, and has let go of the rope. We now need to decide where he lands, which is going to be totally random, seeing as he simply let go, without planning anything.
Blue die high = He lands before the fence. Take falling damage.
Yellow die high = He lands beyond the fence. Take falling damage.
The die are even = You land on the fence. Take about a gazillion volts.
And that's how it works. We also sometimes use another method in addition to the one mentioned above. If the dice are even, but low, shit hits the fan, but in small amounts. A double 6 would mean Big Shit.
This is how I handle any "luck" or "chance" activities in my campaign.
I have two really large D6. (I mean REALLY huge die.) One is blue, and the other is yellow.
Before rolling, the players and I assign various meanings to the dice.
Example - My player (with no athletics or climbing skill) has closed his eyes and slid down a rope between two buildings. Below him is a massively charged electric fence. My player has not made hsi default rolls, and has let go of the rope. We now need to decide where he lands, which is going to be totally random, seeing as he simply let go, without planning anything.
Blue die high = He lands before the fence. Take falling damage.
Yellow die high = He lands beyond the fence. Take falling damage.
The die are even = You land on the fence. Take about a gazillion volts.
And that's how it works. We also sometimes use another method in addition to the one mentioned above. If the dice are even, but low, shit hits the fan, but in small amounts. A double 6 would mean Big Shit.
Luck? How about by deciding everything by ROLLING FUCKING DICE! There's your luck right there.
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