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yesferatu
Hey guys,

So I was trying to treat some armor I'm using and I couldn't get past the core rules.
I believe it's something like 1.5 x max rating on the armor (e.g lined coat 6/4 x 1.5 = 9 total points).
So...the max on something like that would be 6 Non-conductivity and 3 something else (or 1 & 1 & 1).
1. Is that true.
2. Can you use form fit suit to treat for another 9 points or do they stack?
3. Does that become 18 total points (6/4 + 6/2 x 1.5)?

I need Non-conductivity 6 and at least as much of chem or something else.
How the heck does that work?
Wakshaani
When last I checked, there were actually no limits on stacking armor treatments. The 1.5X is a nice house rule, but there's nothing stopping you from, say, slapping everything at 6 on your form-fitting armor.

(I say this without going to check my copy of SR4A, mind you, so if I'm wrong and there are limits, yay! Because not having them is just silly.)
Draco18s
SR4A has limits, but I don't recall what they are.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 3 2012, 11:39 AM) *
SR4A has limits, but I don't recall what they are.


IIRC, SR4A does not have any limits, those are established in Arsenal. Could be wrong, though.
ShadowDragon8685
The limits are established in Arsenal, they are also optional.

I'd suggest checking with your GM, unless they have a written list of rules and such, in which case, if it doesn't mention it, go crazy.
Neraph
QUOTE (yesferatu @ Dec 3 2012, 12:04 PM) *
Hey guys,

So I was trying to treat some armor I'm using and I couldn't get past the core rules.
I believe it's something like 1.5 x max rating on the armor (e.g lined coat 6/4 x 1.5 = 9 total points).
So...the max on something like that would be 6 Non-conductivity and 3 something else (or 1 & 1 & 1).
1. Is that true.
2. Can you use form fit suit to treat for another 9 points or do they stack?
3. Does that become 18 total points (6/4 + 6/2 x 1.5)?

I need Non-conductivity 6 and at least as much of chem or something else.
How the heck does that work?

Sounds like you're using the Arsenal optional rules.

1) Yes.
2) They stack, but only as long as they are different bonuses: for example, having Nonconductivity 4 on one item and Nonconductivity 2 on another will not give you Nonconductivity 6.
3) Yes, although the formula would be (6 * 1.5) + (6 + 1/5).

Buy a Chemsuit and wear it in addition to armor. They're cheaper than the Chemical Protection modification. Page 337 of SR4A. Also, remember that clothing is considered 0/0 armor, and thus has 6 points of Armor Modifications. Clothing with Fire Protection, FFBA with Nonconductivity, armor with Insulation, and a Chemsuit and you're gold.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 3 2012, 01:02 PM) *
Sounds like you're using the Arsenal optional rules.

1) Yes.
2) They stack, but only as long as they are different bonuses: for example, having Nonconductivity 4 on one item and Nonconductivity 2 on another will not give you Nonconductivity 6.
3) Yes, although the formula would be (6 * 1.5) + (6 + 1/5).

Buy a Chemsuit and wear it in addition to armor. They're cheaper than the Chemical Protection modification. Page 337 of SR4A. Also, remember that clothing is considered 0/0 armor, and thus has 6 points of Armor Modifications. Clothing with Fire Protection, FFBA with Nonconductivity, armor with Insulation, and a Chemsuit and you're gold.


Ever seen a Chemsuit? Ever worn one? I would NOT go with this option, as you will STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. AND they are cumbersome as hell.
almost normal
You could totally pull off the Marty McFly scare tactic though.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2012, 09:08 PM) *
Ever seen a Chemsuit? Ever worn one? I would NOT go with this option, as you will STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. AND they are cumbersome as hell.

Chemsuits are good if its fucking cold outside - just run around a bit and its cosy in it. If you overdo it, you can take a swim inside your suit ^^
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2012, 09:08 PM) *
Ever seen a Chemsuit? Ever worn one? I would NOT go with this option, as you will STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. AND they are cumbersome as hell.

You know... In the sixth world, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fetish club scene where it blends in seamlessly.
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Dec 3 2012, 10:01 PM) *
You know... In the sixth world, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a fetish club scene where it blends in seamlessly.

This is already reality ^^
_Pax._
I'm a big fan of putting anything you "can't live without" on the Form-fitting stuff. Nonconductivity, especially. That way, outfit to outfit, disguise to disguise, that mod goes WITH you, whatever else you might wear.
Neraph
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 3 2012, 02:08 PM) *
Ever seen a Chemsuit? Ever worn one? I would NOT go with this option, as you will STICK OUT LIKE A SORE THUMB. AND they are cumbersome as hell.

Oh, I'm sorry, but you've seen a chemsuit of the 2070's? I think you may be confusing the chemsuit and the hazmat suit there. The hazmat covers the whole body and contains internal air, counting as a full chemical seal. The chemsuit gives chemical protection and is slick. Big difference in description there.
Manunancy
As lon as you're not ging for the (in)famous NBC-proof thong loophole allowed by the lack or armor locations....
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 3 2012, 09:02 PM) *
2) They stack, but only as long as they are different bonuses: for example, having Nonconductivity 4 on one item and Nonconductivity 2 on another will not give you Nonconductivity 6.
I think you are confusing SR4A with The Other Game. Nonconductivity (and the other elemental "resistances") are dice pool modifiers. They stack.
Irion
@Dakka Dakka
Actually, I think they can only be applyed once...

I mean honestly? Elemental Resistance of 20 just for some cash....

Just saying: Magic underware... (In this case not really magic but silly)
Dakka Dakka
I agree that they propbably should only be allowed to be applied once, but the rules say otherwise. With the possible exception of the chemical protection used against toxins (and not acid) they are dice pool modifiers.
bannockburn
Hm. I haven't found anything against or for armor mods stacking. Can someone point me to a page citation in either Arsenal or the BBB?
Dakka Dakka
Armor is a dice pool modifier. So it stacks unless stated otherwise (mainly worn armor outside Arsenal).
bannockburn
I don't know about that, really. Armor mods modify the armor value (not a dice pool per sť) against a specific type of damage. However, is the armor value a dice pool modifier or a stand alone concept?
My interest is rather academic, though. Until now I've ruled that armor mods of layered armor indeed stack, just as layered armor does.
This means, if you don't have an item with +x/+y instead of two distinct pieces of armor, the armor mods of those don't stack either.
E.g.: FFBA with mods stacks with camo suit with mods, but camo suit with mods does not stack with armor jacket with mods.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Dec 5 2012, 12:02 AM) *
I don't know about that, really. Armor mods modify the armor value (not a dice pool per sť) against a specific type of damage. However, is the armor value a dice pool modifier or a stand alone concept?
The elemental protections are modifiers and thus "Should there be any doubt, assume the modifier is a dice pool modifier." (SR4A p. 61) applies.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Dec 5 2012, 12:02 AM) *
My interest is rather academic, though. Until now I've ruled that armor mods of layered armor indeed stack, just as layered armor does.
This means, if you don't have an item with +x/+y instead of two distinct pieces of armor, the armor mods of those don't stack either.
E.g.: FFBA with mods stacks with camo suit with mods, but camo suit with mods does not stack with armor jacket with mods.
That's still more than enough. FFBA +6, PPP Forearm Guards +6, PPP Helmet +6, PPP Leg and Arm Guards +6, PPP Shin Guards, PPP Vitals Protector +6, Armor/clothing +6, Helmet +6, Shield +6. +48 against one elemental effect with the optional rule from Arsenal, +48 against all of them without. It gets pretty expensive though.
bannockburn
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Dec 5 2012, 12:45 AM) *
The elemental protections are modifiers and thus "Should there be any doubt, assume the modifier is a dice pool modifier." (SR4A p. 61) applies.

That's a good point, thanks smile.gif

QUOTE
That's still more than enough. FFBA +6, PPP Forearm Guards +6, PPP Helmet +6, PPP Leg and Arm Guards +6, PPP Shin Guards, PPP Vitals Protector +6, Armor/clothing +6, Helmet +6, Shield +6. +48 against one elemental effect with the optional rule from Arsenal, +48 against all of them without. It gets pretty expensive though.

It also gets you smacked around wink.gif If someone tries to do this to prove a point, I make a point by doing something equally inane. In other words: It never comes up in my games, fortunately, so we usually don't even need to discuss it smile.gif
I also use the optional rule of maximum modifications, which makes it +2 for Forearm / Shin Guards, +3 for Helmet, +2 for Leg / Arm Casings and +2 for the Vitals Protector for a total of +11. With two 'regular' armor pieces, this makes a +23 against ... let's say fire. Much more reasonable, in my eyes.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Dec 5 2012, 12:53 AM) *
It also gets you smacked around wink.gif If someone tries to do this to prove a point, I make a point by doing something equally inane. In other words: It never comes up in my games, fortunately, so we usually don't even need to discuss it smile.gif
True, but since stacking is not prohibited the question remains what level of protection is ridiculous.

QUOTE (bannockburn @ Dec 5 2012, 12:53 AM) *
I also use the optional rule of maximum modifications, which makes it +1 for Forearm / Shin Guards, +3 for Helmet, +1 for Leg / Arm Casings and +1 for the Vitals Protector for a total of +7. With two 'regular' armor pieces, this makes a +19 against ... let's say fire. Much more reasonable, in my eyes.
Read the optional rule again. Any piece of armor or clothing can get +6 to one element, regardless of its armor value:
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 44')
Each piece of armor or clothing can only accept a total number of modification rating points equal to 6 or the highest number of its armor ratings (Ballistic or Impact) x 1.5 (round up), whichever is higher.
bannockburn
Oh. You're right, I completely forgot the 'whichever is higher' part. Only remembered the 1.5 x highest rating
Irion
Anyhow: I would use armor-mods in General.
That means: A character can have a total of armor*1.5 or 6, whatever is higher...
Or you end up with: I have fireproof underpants and isolated boots...

I am sorry, but thats just gaming the system, because SR totally failed to consider the fact, that it has a partiel zone system.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 3 2012, 05:32 PM) *
Oh, I'm sorry, but you've seen a chemsuit of the 2070's? I think you may be confusing the chemsuit and the hazmat suit there. The hazmat covers the whole body and contains internal air, counting as a full chemical seal. The chemsuit gives chemical protection and is slick. Big difference in description there.


Irrelevant. And no, I am actually not. Chemsuits and Hazmat Suits are distinctly different. And both are obvious and Cumbersome. Been in both, Hated them both. *shrug*

They may change a little in 60 Years, but I would not count on it. *shrug*
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Dec 5 2012, 11:17 AM) *
Irrelevant. And no, I am actually not. Chemsuits and Hazmat Suits are distinctly different. And both are obvious and Cumbersome. Been in both, Hated them both. *shrug*

They may change a little in 60 Years, but I would not count on it. *shrug*


The core issue with chemsuits is that they are designed to not let liquid in.

Which means they don't let liquid out.

Which means they fill up with your sweat.

Tasty.
Lantzer
I'd list these silly armor mod tricks alongside the guys who want to go shadowrunning in a JIM suit... Or perhaps we should call it shadowWADDLING.

Security report:
"Boss, I think Jacques Cousteau is tangled up in the perimeter fence..."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 5 2012, 08:28 AM) *
The core issue with chemsuits is that they are designed to not let liquid in.

Which means they don't let liquid out.

Which means they fill up with your sweat.

Tasty.


Tis True...
NiL_FisK_Urd
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Dec 5 2012, 04:28 PM) *
The core issue with chemsuits is that they are designed to not let liquid in.

Which means they don't let liquid out.

Which means they fill up with your sweat.

Tasty.

I tried to say this ...
QUOTE (NiL_FisK_Urd @ Dec 3 2012, 09:40 PM) *
Chemsuits are good if its fucking cold outside - just run around a bit and its cosy in it. If you overdo it, you can take a swim inside your suit ^^
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