So apparently 2 PCs the Gun Nut and The Heavy Weapons troll decided to try to terrorist attack a small company owned by horizon in New York. After killing the defenseless Horizon secretary, the two plant spirits inhabiting the the fauna within the company decided to come out and defend the place. After some engulfing and some mind control on the troll on a mage the two PCs are captured and sent to a local Horizon Prison. Now I'm debating of what the fate should happen to them. One of which has a SIN and is EX UCAS SPEC OPs and the other is a SINless troll.

Something of note the rigger did place a fly in the troll's ear. But I assume most prisons can handle that. Wireless blocking paint, detect signals

I remember reading that Horizon specializes in brainwashing, but I was curious of what you guys think should happen to the PCs both mechanically and what sort of brainwashing they exactly do to them. I don't want to directly kill either one due to story reasons. Maybe metaphorically, like gaining the bad quality Total Pacifism and Criminal SIN. Curious to hear.

It sounds to me like the troll is on his way to being a disposable asset for Horizon. With no SIN he is legally a non person, and if he's not too resistant to brainwashing (IE has an average-low willpower) then can be some good muscle for them.

As for neg qualities, I think that at this point I should point out that the Judas quality was made for this situation.

Which one actually killed the secretary? Have that character tied to a pole and gagged and the other character brought into the room chained hand and foot, then remotely unlocked and told to pick up the baseball bat at his feet and beat the other character to death if he wants to be let go. BTW, the room is also obviously covered with cameras. Then have Horizon goons rush in the room and stop him after he gets rolling but before he quite succeeds.

That should spark some interesting inter-party discussions....

Oh, it it's PPV too.

"Stan?!"

"Hey Frank."

"WHat happened?"

"Well, we got busted, right?"

"Well duh."

"Those Horizon guys are alright. They understood that biz is biz, you know? Gave us some options."

"... Options?"

"Yeah! Said we had a kharmic debt to them that we had to pay off, so they gave us a few missions to eyeball, see what caught our eye. Pull off three of 'em and we rebalance the kharmic wheel."

"... kharmic wheel."

"Yeah! They had a whole thing about it ... it's bad juju to wish bad things on people, so when you do, you need a threefold positive action to counter it. Helps make the world a better place."

"..."

"I picked up some books about it. Want to give 'em a lookover?"

"No. No, I think I'll pass."

"C'mon man, it's good stuff. I already paid for 'em, so you won't be in debt."

"Dude."

"I'm just sayin' I wanna help you out, man. You and me go way back, like I told 'em."

"Yeah, we ... wait. TOLD them?!"

"Well yeah. After a few days of sitting around and talking and figuring out that they were wiz chummers, they asked me if there were anybody else I could think of that could use the help. We told 'em about a ton of you guys."

"You giant sack of ... wait. DId you tell them about Lita?!"

"Well duh. She was first on the list!"

"She hasn't answered her comm today!"

"Oh yeah, that'll happen."

"What?!"

"Well, if they picked her up for some time at a R&R faciity like we were in, they wouldn't let her have a comm there... too much of a distraction, you know?"

"GAH! You idiot! Alright ... alright alright. We can still fix this. Do you know where the place is?"

"Sure do. Be happy to take you there, in fact."

"... Wait. You would?"

"Yeah. Matter of fact ... *cracks knuckles* I insist..."

Horizon would probably be very angry about the senseless killing of the secretary. They prefer bloodless runs if at all possible, and senselessly murdering one of their employees would piss them off bad.


I would say that your two runners are in a lot of quality time with a shrink hooked up to a Programmable ASIST Biofeedback unit. They can pretty much expect Horizon to know more or less everything important about them, from whether they were inappropriately touched or beaten/abused as kids to their military/criminal history (including the stuff the UCAS might not prefer Horizon to know about, from the former SpecOps guy,) to why, exactly, they felt that an unarmed non-combatant needed to die brutally, and what exactly led them to decide that their small subsidiary needed to be attacked.

Thing is, though, as far as the Megas go, Horizon is probably the best one to get your ass caught by, because they genuinely are trying to build a better world, and aren't fond of bloodshed, whereas if you get caught by Aztechnology, you'll get your heart ripped out of your chest, or turned into a snack if you get caught by Saeder-Krupp.

I would say that they're going to come out of this with the NQs Records on File (Horizon) and Poor Self Control (Compulsion, 10pts) against killing people (or even make it Preserving Life). Note that this still leaves them the option of using nonlethal force, or making a Composure check if they really feel a need to frag a son-of-a-slitch. They'll likely also have programmed triggers in their head to make contact with their Horizon handler/shrink on regular intervals for a lot of talking about how they're doing and how they're feeling. Thus, they get a Contact out of the deal, one who might be useful if they have to deal with matters of mental health or state, one who can give them a direct line to Horizon if they need it, and who can offer jobs.

Horizon's big on rehabilitation instead of retribution. They'd like to turn your players into assets, of course, but they'd also like to turn them into better people than the ones who decided to gun down a secretary. While you don't want to go total Clockwork Orange on them, Horizon probably would want some insurance against them randomly deciding to murder people again.


You can use this to springboard an entirely new arc in your game. Do your players decide to go with it and start taking more and more Horizon jobs and start to buy into the company line? Or do they resent it and start looking for an appropriate devil to deal with to get themselves deprogrammed? That's up to them, but Horizon would love to make them nicer people, better, productive, happy, fulfilled people.

Been drinking the Kool-Aid much SD?

That's kind of Horizon's thing. They're all about the Kool-Aid, from the top on down. Which makes them both scary, and probably the closest thing to a megacorporate good-guy that Shadowrun has, kind of like the Tau Empire are the closest thing to a good power that 40K has.

I thought Evo was supposed to be "the good guys"...
Might just be me prefering relentless transhumanism over sect like world "improvement"

Evo are definitely the Runners-up, but remember that Evo used to be Yamatetsu. They're still quite willing to put a bullet in your brainpan and leave you in a ditch, or put a cranial bomb in your head and force you to work for them under pain of explosion, whereas Horizon prefers the more subtle and more gentle methods of just changing you into a person who will want to work for them.

Basically, it's Horizon as the best good-guy, Evo as the second-best good-guy, Aztechnology and Saeder-Krupp tied for the worst bad-guy, and everyone else is somewhere in the middle.

I'd take the Cranial bomb personally, atleast then I would still be myself.

On topic: Whatever you choose to do with them, give them a fighting chance to wrangle out of it. Escape with potential backlash, resisting/faking brainwashing (also) a la 'A Clockwork orange', Cutting a deal they can break.
They can screw that up of course, no one enjoys getting screwed over without a chance to do something about it.

Which might prompt the UCAS to make sure he does not talk...ever

Depending on the OP's wishes, this UCAS-sponsored shadowrun could also allow the PCs to get away without too much brainwashing if they seize upon the confusion of the attack.

Criminal SINs for sure, unless they can cut a deal. And some insurance (cranial bomb... psychotropic ice... mental conditioning... FUN!). Even SINless can end up with criminal SINs if they aren't simply disappeared or blackmailed into paying protection money to the star or the like (BAD THING... there's a reason it's a 10pt NEGATIVE quality).


Also inquire with the players about burning edge to have their characters survive. Sorry but it sounds to me like they had a case of the terminal 'stupids'. And when you choose the guns and explosives route... you better be prepared when things go tits up and they weren't.


Who knows... some might be ready to see the char go to the bit bucket in the sky and roll up some new idea.

I tend to fall more into the... actions have consequences crowd... and if they don't the game just isn't fun because it feels like I'm getting handled with kiddie gloves.

There are no "Good Guys" when it comes to the Corps. Only ones that are less... Inhuman.

Horizon Prisons, however, would likely have a whole lot of group therapy. Which is a horror beyond anything I could ever write up.

Also remember the corp could collect the biometric data on them, and not issue the criminal sin... but hold it as an axe over their heads.

You did notice me comparing Horizon to the Tau Empire, right? It's a matter of relatives, and relative to Aztechnology, where they will chain you down and rip your beating heart from your chest, or Saeder-Krupp, who will throw you into Lofwyr's sanctum to be a snack, Horizon are positively the good-guys.

From the perspective of "who would it suck least and maybe even be nice to work for," they're also top of the list (with Evo right behind them,) so they also have that going for them.




Don't forget the quality time with the shrink whilst hooked up to the PAB machine.

wouldn't this cause a the NQ "records on File"? I would certainly think it would, whether they know it or not.

Making deniable potential assets less deniable seem backwards to me. I'd probably add some kind of deal element to anything that impeds with their running. Like "You see this? this is a criminal SIN... it will be all yours, unless of course. We can reach an "agreement"

Wow.

First of all, don't do anything that isn't fun for the players.

Second of all, don't do anything that isn't fun for the players.

This isn't your chance to punish the little motherfuckers. It's just another chance to provide more fun content.

"Now, Edmund."

"Icebreaker-E, yo!"

"Icebreaker-E, then. If you and Anthon-"

*GRUNT*

"Ahem. If you and 'The Fourhundred Kilo Gorilla' would step forward please?"

*grumble mutter shift*

"Okay, we're going to try trust-fall excercises."

"He's a Troll, chummer."

"Do you not trust Trolls, Ed... Icebreaker-E?"

"Naw, I trust 'em fine, but, he's, like, four of me."

"That's not very positive."

"That's just on the reals, yo!"

"Do you want to share the burden with the group, then?"

"What, like, all of us at the same time?"

"Yes. Sometimes, we all face a situation where we need others. Do you want to ask for help?"

"Pshhh! Don't ask for no help! I'm from the 'plex! We watch out for ourselves, yo!"

"Odd. My files said that you were from the Bellview distr-"

"HEYHEYHEYHEYHEY, files be lyin' and stuff! Icebreaker-E is HARD from the 'plex, for reals, chum! Ain't no poser from no rich family! I kick it Redmon style fo' life."

"I see. So, you don't want to ask the group for help?"

"Nahs. I gots this. You, Fatass!"

*grunt*

"Fall back, tusker. I got this."

"?"

"Go ahead, Gorilla. He's ready."

"." ... *THUD*

"Augh! Get him off! Get him off!"

"That will be all for today, class. We'll meet again in the morning for another round of group session. Stay positive!"

"... can't ... breathe ..."

Yup. If you want to punish them for being stupid, just shoot the characters and tell the players to make new ones.

Love it.


This is what happened to my group at one point. They were caught, had some blood taken, and had full body clones made so that the perpetrators could be caught and executed. Some more of the blood was kept on file to be used as a ritual link for Dream spells, giving the group missions that they could not negotiate on.


Do you also not have your players' characters die when they reach full damage overflow? All things are a complex system of consequences, and if you're caught by a mega then you're caught by a mega. Some negative qualities, Notoriety, and RP-elements are a completely acceptable alternative for rerolling characters.


Love it!

Oof, are these players new to SR, GM Lich? If they're new, maybe go easy on them and use this as a teaching moment. Bad stuff, certainly, but stuff that with some sacrifice (burnt contacts or Edge, negative qualities, whatever you feel like really) they can get out of. If they've been playing for a bit...yeah. Maybe they'll actually prefer the "new sheet" route.

edit: Great stuff, Wak.

Thank you for the praise!

(Now if I can just kill CanRay, all the comedy will be mine! MWU-hahaha.... hrm. Maple syrup overdose, perhaps? Hmm...)

Maple syrup, no need. Just set up a game for him to play in, and he'll have a heart attack.

Consequences are fine, but dragging out an unpleasant scene, or taking away character autonomy and expecting them to "roleplay" the brainwashed slaves instead of just rolling up new characters while the old ones become NPCs, is not fun. I am fine with my characters being charbroiled, electrocuted, shot, stabbed, overcharged for parking, and called mean names, but I would not sit at a game where I could not even play my character, or where I was stuck in a GM's personal power trip.

Your GM is a MONSTER

So... ShadowBrony fanfic?

--



I don't let people call me mean names. That's crossing the line. The other stuff is expected though.

Dollhouse

Time to find out who's Alpha/Echo and who's just another doll.

SO, you have not watched it? Great Show.

Considering everything that's tried to kill me over the years, I think the only chance I have of dying in a non-natural way would involve a trip to Australia.

And even then I'd likely have to be air-dropped into the middle of the outback.

That would be natural causes, CanRay. Braving the Outback is nature. Australia is the most natural place left in the world.

Fixed that for you.

Manta rays.

Never.

Underestimate.

Manta rays.

9/4/06, never forget

Crickey! is it that long?

Having them perform specific, detailed events every now and then is not utterly brainwashing them and forcing them to roleplay something different. I think the example given above was hyperbole and not to be taken seriously. What I and others were proposing was something akin to owing a debt to a don or other Johnson - you have to perform specific 'runs for them out of pocket until they determine the debt has been paid.

I wrote a semi-fanfic/tribute based in D&D about the Lock Hunter after remembering that one of my friends will play rogues who maxes out Disable Device and pick the maximum quality locks to steal the locks and sell them at low levels for quick cash. IIRC the tribute is currently on the hard drive of a laptop that won't start...

You remember the big uproar over him holding his newborn baby up over a bunch of crocs, and some people going, "Pfft, he knows what he's doing. No big!"

Yeah?

Well, here's that infant.

[img]http://www.customcovers.nl/system/files/imagecache/preview/free_willy_4_-_ontsnapping_uit_de_piratenbaai-sambal-customcovers.nl.jpg[/img]

Blew. My. Mind. when Free WIlly 4 first popped up in my store, lemme tell you.

Sadly no, I was nine years old and wasn't aware of Steve Irvin until my teens. Also, wasn't freeing Willy once enough?

I'm getting an "access denied" thing from that link.

Can't confirm, but I think this is the image Wakshaani's trying to link to.

All you need to do is wait a few years. The old man's getting pretty long in the tooth these days. XD




No need, I'm writing that one. >w>

A corporation holding a bit of leverage over a PC, or expecting a favor (or several favors) in exchange for releasing them, is something I would consider excessive; indeed, that is fairly normal for the setting. But brainwashing, and extended captivity scenes, are both things that should be handled carefully by the GM.

Excessive, yet you consider it normal? Hard to grok that one.

Otherwise I agree with you. I did not suggest the brainwashing/captivity scenes. In my game there was a captivity scene, but it lasted all of five minutes. It was intended as a cutscene where their dilemma was explained to them. The group heard nothing more of it until about five sessions later. I think they ended up doing three or four missions for the Johnson who got leverage over them.

Another workaround is that the Johnson that gets leverage on a group can himself be taken out by others in his mega or by wetwork 'runs against him. Since shadowrunners aren't on the books, the leverage one has over a group simply disappears.

Sorry, missed that when proofing my post. Should have been a "not" in there.

The world is right again!

I'd say make an example out of the one that killed the secretary and let the other one work off his "debt" (after a "session" to force him to keep his mouth shut about this).
After all brainwashing is labor extensive so there has to be a good return on the investment (unless you just want to let the lab assistants get a little practice in).

And making an example is no good if no one knows about it.
By the time the session wears off enough that the non killer can talk about it, he should be suitably impressed with just how bad an idea it is to cross Horizon.

Agree about keeping the "session"/prison time short and sweet (set the scene) then let them deal with the consequences.

First question is: Do the players want to continue with these characters? If no, then have them make new ones. If yes, warn them that there are going to be massive consequences for what happened (don't specify--just say it will happen next session).

Also, note that laes and other mind altering stuff works. So the players might not even remember any of it. As to killing of the secretary, well that may result in the death of the offending PC. Judging by Horizon's attitude this may be put up to the consensus and depending on time period may result in either rehab in to a good horizon employee, or used as deniable assets on high risk missions.

You should definitely read the Horizon write-up in the Corporate book before you decide what to do. But they wouldn't be the type to just drag them out to an industrial run-off ditch and put a bullet in their heads, like the other megas. They also prefer less obviously hostile and physically aggressive methods of ensuring loyalty.



Also, Warlord, I can't thank you enough for your signature, especially the DGIF bit. That's become the mantra with my group, though we also send one of the free spirits in, incorporeal, with the drones. It's also come in handy in Space Station 13, when playing as a cult, when it becomes CGIF - Constructs Go In First.

I got it... the perfect things. Almost always hilarious for everyone else!

Invoked Memory Stimulators.... give them flashbacks to group therapy! (along with a cranial bomb if anyone tries to take em out! haha).