I was just perusing SR3 and i came accross the karma pool section. I was reminded that every 20th good karma goes to another karma pool point for metahumans but for regular humans, it's every 10th. Before everyone takes up their torches and pitchforks and tries to immolate me for impugning the almighty god CANON, all i really want to hear is a reasonable explanation. Are humans just naturally luckier than metas? Does God hate the UGE-ed? Is it a government plot?

Beats the hell outta me. I think it might have something to do with the whole concept of humans being more lucky/intutive/easier learners thing that D&D tries to capture with that extra feat and skill points they get at first level.

The only problem with this theory is that metahumans are supposed to be another branch of humanity in Shadowrun, instead of being totally different species in D&D.

Game balance. Drekkin' useless game balance.

Game balance, pure and simple.

Humans are just luckyer. Or rather: They haven't been gifted with the powers of metahumanity thus deserve more. You can also think of it as metahumans having the bad karma flaw whilst humans are just normal. (it is called Karma, after-all)

Also: Some people (IIRC: Sphynx and maybe some others) consider the fast rate that humans recieve karma pool to be a minor curse as then they have less karma to spend on initiations and so-forth. That can be circumvented by allowing some karma pool to be spent as good karma but some people might not be happy with that.

Well there you have it! Guess I was just way off base then...

Well this is my opinion. It is more of a way to even out human versus metahuman early on in the priority system. For instance, if karma was the same and you were not a mage or adept why would you ever not be a ork or dwarf execpt for roleplay purposes? Our group actually house ruled it so once you hit 100 karma it is 20 for everyone. This happened once a few characters were sitting on 15 karma pool.

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Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me!

I think it's a mix between giving people a bonus for throwing away a priority if their character idea is human, and a throwback to 1st and 2nd edition where metas were royally screwed.

Actually, since the Fourth World, humans were known to be more Versatile than other Namegivers, uh, metahumans, that is.

Once again, balance. Just because it has an explanation doesn't mean the explanation ain't a bullshit justification (lyrical sentence there...).

That said, there are other issues with race in SR...

Dwarves, Priority D- 4 Attribute points (IIRC?), +1 against toxins, thermo vision, being short and constantly underestimated (not a bad thing)

Elves, Priority C- 3 Attribute points, low-light, being either loathed or loved (based on location...)

I personally think the respective priority levels should be switched, but that's just me.

Well, the quick fix to the actual problem you suggested is...20 karma/1 kp for everyone. If non-mage human-players complain about being screwed over, switch to the BP system. It's far better anyway.

i'm not sure how switching to the BP system would change the fact that non-mage humans are getting screwed.

My group has never liked the wonky karma rules presented in the BBB. Generally, for shorter campaigns, more fun can be had house-ruling karma pool advancement to every 10 good karma for everyone. Also, we tend to house-rule it such that good karma does not "go" into karma pool. Rather, every 10 good karma you get, ups a character's karma pool 1. That way, if I want to give out n karma to a player, I don't have to know how much good karma the character has (I don't want to short-change the player in a short campaign if they're about to roll over a 10 good karma threshhold). Folks seem to like this system. It allows rapid, visible changes to character strength and depth over shorter time.

@Kakkaraun: Dwarves do get quite a nice layout, but remember that they run more slowly, and their gear is more expencive. That and mental attributes are usually more valuable, and quickness is probably the most valuable of the physical attributes. OK: So willpower is probably the more valuable mental attribute but dwarves do have several disadvantages.

Need I remind you of the age-old addage: You don't need to out-run the monster, you only need to out-run whoever's with you.

I don't really think humans advance slower because of the different accruel rates. The human can take the Bad Karma flaw and advance at the same rate as metahumans and get an edge or BPs.

Instead of raising skills, they can use the dice in the pool. They can add it to a roll or use it to reroll failures. Both are the same, or better, than having a higher skill rating. Yes, they have to wait for the pool to refresh, but if they have such a huge pool, it should last them. Raising a skill from 5 to 6 usually costs 9 or 12 karma. Adding a die from the karme pool, provides the same number of dice as raising a skill 1 point. The first reroll of failures costs 1 karma pool die. If the skill was 5, this could mean rolling another 2 or 3 dice, giving an virtual skill of 7 or 8.

When you need to roll an attribute, the same applies.

I would like to get a karma pool die instead of a karma point almost every time.

My group does it the same way RangerJoe does, I actually can't imagine doing it any other way.

60 points for attributes, plus 30 for a million nu, plus 30 for skills. wow, you're right, that's a great mage. except, you know, for the part where you're not a mage at all because you didn't spend the 30 points to be one.

Erm, the debate was about mundane humans being screwed, not human mages.

Someone's not familiar with the systems.

The reason the human mundane is screwed in Priorities is that both Human and Non-Mage are E priorities. Dig?

BP, you pay points for being a mage. If you ain't one, you spend no points. Elf mage in Priorities fills up C and A. Human mund in priorities fills up E and D (because you can't double fill E, silly). In BP, Elf mage=35 points, Human mund=0 points.

Dig?

er. right. ignore me. i still don't see that making up for the extra karma pool, though. i like my kp. a few extra points at creation doesn't make up for that loss.

It certainly does seem to be motivated by the A-to-E priority system.

Under BP though it is akin to having the option of getting a -5 point flaw for 'free'. Frankly that is pretty damn sweet. For that plus one more BP you can bump any stat you want to 8. Or instead you can get another skill at 5, another cash level to tweak out your spell list, elementals, gear, cyber, or bioware a bit (at the top end +5 BP == +350,000), or just move up to a Real Mage™ from being a wannabe aspected one.

Because of that i kinda wish a different 'balancing' mechanism had been used, although to be fair BP wasn't part of the picture when the race dependant karma pool rule was created.

that still doesn't make up for the loss of karma pool, to me. most runs, i end up spending about half my pool; tough runs, i start running out.

Well two things in operation here.

One, different rate of karma pool gain. Partly its a balancing factor for humans. The in-game rational is that presence of metahumanity aside, the world is still by and large built for and run by humans. Its nice that some places have Troll Sized doors, but that cab over there and the stair well in this old building and the pen right here were all made to Human standards. They get more karma pool because when it hits the fan, odds are the situation is setup to favor them, as a holdover from the 5th world.

Two, how each of you is handling this different rate of karma gain. Some people hate it because they want more good karma. Some people like it because they always use their karma pool. How that all pans out *really* depends on how you run your games. The other consideration is whether or not your group places limits on karma pool. Like for our games we follow the suggestion and limit everyones karma pool to 10. So humans get there sooner, and can afford to 'burn' karma pool easier because they will recoup it faster. So they are a bit more sure to succeed, a bit luckier if you will, in the long haul. But in a straight up dice tossin match everyone is equal.

That works for us, obviously the views on karma differ a lot so milage may vary.

yeah. that, and, you spend points or priorities to get things, in SR. not spending points isn't an advantage, it's the default state. "woo, i found a loophole in the creation system--my decker character spent 0 points on Sorcery!"