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Stahlseele
OK so . .
Is there actually a way to make that one a viable Weapon?
Seeing how it fires a set ammount of 15 bullets every time the Trigger is pulled, the Recoil is way too big to handle . .
It's 15 Bullets. So a TN because of Recoil of +15 AT LEAST. That means even point blank, using a Smartlinked Gun, this is a 17 TN to hit with . . SEVENTEEN! Point Blank! What were they thinking?
And this gun does not accept many mods for Recoil compensation either. You can have, i think, one Under and one Over the barrel. You can use a Sling . . Then you are at 3 points of Recoil Compensation.
If you are an STR12 character, you are at 5 Points of Recoil Compensation. That's still a +20 TN, because as a heavy weapon, uncompensated Recoil gets doubled again.
Even if you mount it on a Vehicle, Trucks and Tanks have a Maximum of 12 Body, everything obtainable for Runners is at Body 6 or below. So that's still an +18 for the TN just because of Recoil.
And then it's not even that good of a weapon, especially once hardened Armor comes into play. Which, at that level of Armament, is pretty much assured. Everything with 7 points of hardened Armor shrugs it off completely.
Because the basic Damage Code is 7S. So the power can't pierce the hardened armor and the more damage from the full auto long burst does not help with that either. Personal Armor in the form of Heavy-Milspec Armor goes up to that without problem. So even if you are actually getting hit by it, if you wear that, then it does not hurt you at all!

What am i missing here folks?
Critias
It's been a long time since SR3, and my head's all fuzzy about what was house rules and what wasn't, but I recall them being nasty at suppressive fire.
Mantis
Can't you use a gyro mount for your 12 str character example and add 6 more points of recoil comp to the mix? That would give you 11 points by your example. Also been a long time since I looked at 3rd ed rules and even when we played 3rd ed I don't think anyone ever used a minigun so it never came up. Perhaps for the very reasons you list.
Stahlseele
so, 6 from the gyroscope and 2 from STR 12 makes 8 . .
Still 7 points of uncompensated recoil doubling to +14 for the Minigun . .

Yeah, it's used as the picture in th section about trolls being able to use two handed weapons and heavy weapons one handed . .
So i started thinking about it and hit a wall with the numbers <.<
Mercer
It seems like you'd see these mostly as hard mounts on a vehicle or a fixed gun emplacement, but I never could get a handle on how recoil worked on vehicles. It was either half, none, or some other figure that seemed to change every time I looked it up.
Stahlseele
On vehicles you use the vehicles body stat for additional recoil compensation, as far as i know . .
So, not much in terms of most vehicles actually available for characters . . Even TANKS go only to 12 body, as fas as i know.
That still leaves 3 points of uncompensated recoil and this is doubled to 6 for a +6 to the TN . . so even a smartlinked point blank shot from a tank still has a TN of 8 before all other modifiers . .
Kliko
Suppresive fire, searching fire, tracer rounds, gunnery recoil adjusters and turrets come to mind.

Besides, they look cool!
ntwi
Carried by a STR 12 Troll

MaxGyro (RC 7) (Cannon Compenduim pg 34)
Hip Pad Bracing System (RC 1) (CC pg 34)
Underbarrel Weight (RC 1) (CC pg 34)
STR 12 (RC 2)
Smartlink (TN -2)

This gives a total of 11 RC, leaving 4 uncompensated turning into a +8 TN, which still leaves you with TN 10 to hit something at short range, although tracers can bring that down by 5 to a TN 5, although you lose some of the damage increase.


On vehicles it can get a little messier given multiple references that don't completely agree with each other.

SR3 pg 151 *Manual Gunnery"
For weapons mounted on fixed vehicle mounts and turrets, reduce recoil by half (rounded down) before applying recoil compensation provided by weapon accessories. (This compensation cancels out the double-uncompensated recoil modifier for heavy weapons; see p. 111 of the Combat section.)

Does this mean 1/2 the recoil and do not double it, full original but no doubling, or something else??? When you open Rigger 3 looking for more answers it doesn't get better.

Rigger 3 pg 135
"Vehicle weapon mounts use the weight of the vehicle to stabilize the weapon against the vehicles movement and to provide some recoil resistance as well."

pg 136 "Fixed Mounts"
Fixed mounts reduce recoil modifiers by half before applying recoil compensation from any accessories. Thus, they cancel the double-recoil modifier for heavy weapons."

pg 137 Gunner Recoil Compensators
Fixed mounts and Turrets only, -1RC per rating. Limited by type of turret or mount.

pg 138 Pintle and Ring mounts
No mention of recoil is made. (IMO it should be equal to a tripod or -6RC. Whether this stacks with 1/2 recoil or not is another question)

pg 140 Turrets
When firing turret-mounted weapons, reduce recoil modifiers by half before applying recoil compensation from any accessories. Turrets cancel the double recoil modifier for heavy weapons.

pg 142 Vehicle Gyroscopic Stabilizers
-1RC per rating, max of 2x Body (Not compatible with Recoil Compensators)



Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit
Mini Turret
R6 Gunnery Recoil Compensators

Base recoil = 15
1/2 recoil = 7
Recoil Comp = -6RC
Uncompensated Recoil = 1

Unless I'm reading it wrong, you can mount on on the top of a tiny subcompact and spray away all day at a TN 3 for short range. Some of you have mentioned Body being a limiting factor in recoil compensation, if you can find a reference for that please let me know so I can correct myself and improve my SR3 rules-fu.
Telion
best way to go with a mini gun is mounted as ntwi shows.

Some other options if you don't want to mount is to use Incendiary(if you feel safe enough) or Tracer rounds.
Incendiary will maintain your damage, and provide some improved aim to counter some of the recoil.
Incendiary also comes with secondary burning effects and potential blow yourself up if you don't let it cool off.

Keep in mind it requires 1 combat turn to spin up, so might as well be taking aim during this time.

Might be best to go with some HV machine gun for a total of 18 rounds, or the stoner ares MMG at 10S.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 1 2013, 02:22 PM) *
On vehicles you use the vehicles body stat for additional recoil compensation, as far as i know . .

At least in SR4 that is an optional rule. The standard rule there is that vehicles suffer zero penalties from recoil.

smile.gif

But yes, in SR3 the minigun mostly sucked. At least there you could apply vehicular Recoil Compensators to vehicle mounted units in addition to weapon-mounted compensation.




-k
Iduno
QUOTE (ntwi @ Jan 1 2013, 05:00 PM) *
Chrysler-Nissan Jackrabbit
Mini Turret
R6 Gunnery Recoil Compensators

Base recoil = 15
1/2 recoil = 7
Recoil Comp = -6RC
Uncompensated Recoil = 1


It sounds like the solution is to mount it to a car small enough to be carried around by a troll.
Prime Mover
QUOTE (Iduno @ Jan 2 2013, 04:43 PM) *
It sounds like the solution is to mount it to a car small enough to be carried around by a troll.


Best thing I've heard all day. Lol
nezumi
I don't recall the rules about vehicle mounts adding rc. Was it really limited to the body rating of the vehicle? That sounds goofy.

But yes, the answer is suppressive fire. Recoil doesn't apply to that. Or for hitting monster-sized targets.
DuckEggBlue Omega
Isn't the Body limit on RC just a reference to Gyroscopic Stabilisers?

And in the interest of general rules knowledge...
QUOTE (ntwi @ Jan 2 2013, 07:30 AM) *
Underbarrel Weight (RC 1) (CC pg 34)

You can't take barrel accessories on a minigun.

QUOTE
pg 138 Pintle and Ring mounts
No mention of recoil is made. (IMO it should be equal to a tripod or -6RC. Whether this stacks with 1/2 recoil or not is another question)

In my copy, admittedly not R3R, pintle mounts provide -2RC and can only mount firmpoint sized weapons (minigun is too big) whilst a ring mount does indeed provide -6RC. The absense of any mention of halving recoil (unlike fixed mounts and turrets) is likely intentional, since the weapons can be mounted/dismounted with a complex action.
ntwi
QUOTE (DuckEggBlue Omega @ Jan 4 2013, 05:08 AM) *
And in the interest of general rules knowledge...

You can't take barrel accessories on a minigun.

But it's technically a under mount accessory, not a barrel accessory according to the chart on pg 120 of the Canon Companion.
DuckEggBlue Omega
My mistake, I thought there was some overlap because the underbarrel weight entry on pg 84 lists the mount as "underbarrel", but that seems a mistake.
Stahlseele
Guns usually come with under, over, barrel and sometimes internal/stock i think, but i am not sure about the last two.
I have, as of yet, found no reason why some guns can accept barrel accessoiries and others can't . .
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