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nielsk
Hi,

it seems that I will soon start again game mastering Shadowrun and I am thinking about running a 2050 campaign. I like what they did and I like the 4E-rules. The only problem I have with 2050 is the character generation. Especially when it comes to money. I searched the net but until now I found only guesses how to handle the money issue when generating 2050-characters. One suggestion I found was using 2070-prices for generating the characters, other ones suggested to add more money to a building point and yet other people just suggested to use the the 5000¥/BP and 2050-prices. I did calculations on the street samurai in the book and either I did something fundamentally wrong or nothing adds up at all.

So, is there already a definite answer to what to do?



P.s.: Why the hell is there a synaptic accelerator in 2050 that has 3 levels and is as good as wired reflexes in level 3. Originally they had only 2 levels and only added ini-dice (the equivalent would be IP-passes I guess)…it's ok for 2070 but in 2050? And wasn't Bioware something introduced in 2nd edition and therefore only available from 2053? Or when I am looking at the shadowtalk-dates in Shadowtech earliest available in 2052 (that would make it a 1st edition book though…it's been a bit too long…)?
Lionhearted
IIRC Bio was very much rare cutting edge technology even in 3rd ed.
Shaidar
I found a listing of books and the relevant game year to reference:

Wiki SR Page

First bioware was in Shadowtech (7110) with a game date of 2050.
nielsk
QUOTE (Shaidar @ Jan 18 2013, 03:09 AM) *
I found a listing of books and the relevant game year to reference:

Wiki SR Page

First bioware was in Shadowtech (7110) with a game date of 2050.


Thanks a lot smile.gif
nezumi
re: synaptic accelerators - you're right, your SR4 book is wrong. Synaptic accelerators did become competitive when combined with enhanced reflexes. The result was usually (at level 2 synaptic accelerators, level 3 boosted reflexes) +4 initiative die, +2 reflexes, compared to wired reflexes at level 3 which added +3 iniative die, +6 reflexes.

If you're doing a straight, math comparison, +1 initiative die is equivalent to +3.5 to your reflexes/your total initiative score. Every 10 added to your total initiative added another initiative pass. So full wired adds +6 + 10.5 = 16.5. Combined with the default for a normal character (4+1d6 or 7.5), that gives you 24, or three initiative passes. The full synaptic acceleration/boosted reflexes above adds +2 +4*3.5, or 16, plus the standard 7.5 for 23.5 -- basically equivalent.

(In case you're curious, the cost difference is $300k, 1.5 essence for wired, $290k, 2.8 essence + 1 bio for synaptic/enhanced reaction).
All4BigGuns
Sounds like rules lawyering and a good case for breaking out the old phone book to smack a player to me. The fact that Boosted Reflexes back in that time prevented the later acquisition of Wired Reflexes entirely, tells me that it is a cheap replacement--of course that isn't as good. As such, the intent would likely be for the Synaptic Accelerator to not be compatible with that just as it isn't with Wired Reflexes or Move-by-Wire.
bannockburn
It was entirely the intent.
Not necessarily useful, but intentional.
nezumi
Honestly, I think it works the other way around.

At the time the core book came out, there were two implants which boosted initiative die; boosted reflexes, and wired reflexes. Combine them together and you get a crazy +5 dice. (+5 dice would later be ruled as too much, with the cap being +4, but we aren't there yet.) So obviously, these two things can't be used together. They only need to put the note on one piece of ware, so they put it on boosted reflexes, which already has a bunch of special caveats.

More ware came out in later books, namely Man & Machine. You have a few items that came out, including the move-by-wire system. MBW says specifically it is not compatible with other initiative-enhancing cyber- or bio- (i.e., wired, or synaptic, or boosted). Synaptic only says not compatible with MBW or wired. These are in the same book, but use different, very explicit sets of rules for each. And the result of either combo is nearly the same. As you can see above, SA+BR is $10k less, but more expensive in essence, than WR. It seems pretty clear to me that this was an intentional design choice. M&M, being the new book out, is adding more options for players. Synaptic accelerators on their own are overpriced and useless. This makes them a legitimate choice, without making them the obvious BEST choice.
bannockburn
It's a moot point though, as it (hopefully, I haven't read Way of the Samurai yet) isn't compatible in SR4 smile.gif
All4BigGuns
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 18 2013, 10:50 AM) *
Honestly, I think it works the other way around.

At the time the core book came out, there were two implants which boosted initiative die; boosted reflexes, and wired reflexes. Combine them together and you get a crazy +5 dice. (+5 dice would later be ruled as too much, with the cap being +4, but we aren't there yet.) So obviously, these two things can't be used together. They only need to put the note on one piece of ware, so they put it on boosted reflexes, which already has a bunch of special caveats.

More ware came out in later books, namely Man & Machine. You have a few items that came out, including the move-by-wire system. MBW says specifically it is not compatible with other initiative-enhancing cyber- or bio- (i.e., wired, or synaptic, or boosted). Synaptic only says not compatible with MBW or wired. These are in the same book, but use different, very explicit sets of rules for each. And the result of either combo is nearly the same. As you can see above, SA+BR is $10k less, but more expensive in essence, than WR. It seems pretty clear to me that this was an intentional design choice. M&M, being the new book out, is adding more options for players. Synaptic accelerators on their own are overpriced and useless. This makes them a legitimate choice, without making them the obvious BEST choice.


Synaptic Accelerator may have been expensive, but it was not 'useless', because unlike the cyber implants Muscle Replacement and others, the bio versions could increase Reaction, and this removes the need for the Synaptic Accelerator to do so. Then there is that Boosted Reflexes is obviously designed to not be compatible with anything due to the prevention of any removal or upgrading to another implant. While this could be said to make Boosted Reflexes 'useless', it in fact leaves it as what it is intended to be--a cheap alternative to Wired Reflexes, but with a heavy, heavy price. To allow Synaptic Accelerator and Boosted Reflexes to work together actually would render the other two implants pointless.


QUOTE
It's a moot point though, as it (hopefully, I haven't read Way of the Samurai yet) isn't compatible in SR4


The following is a direct quote:

Boosted reflexes cannot be taken past level three, and they are not compatible with any other augmentation that a ects Initiative Passes.
bannockburn
Your 'obviously designed' statement is just wrong. I know this for a fact, because I've actually _asked_ one of the rules persons back then. It was a kosher option, and it was intended, simply because it wasn't very overpowered.
Adrenal Pumps, Enhanced Articulation and the Suprathyroid Gland were the only bioware implants that directly affected Reaction, iirc.
Muscle Toner gave you quickness which in turn raised reaction, but here's the kicker: No one prevents you from taking ALL these things in tandem and round them out with a reflex booster.
Personally, I would rather take 3 passes for granted with, let's say 24+3d6 (and this isn't even maxed out) than having 11+5d6 or so and depend on luck.

Also, I don't see why combining the implants would make either of them pointless.
All4BigGuns
Well, seeing as the combination is cheaper, and yet more effective than Wired Reflexes, there's that one being rendered useless.

As to Move-by-Wire, well back in SR3, it was practically worthless as it was due to the ridiculous essence costs and that SR3 pretty much made that one disorder a foregone conclusion (one of the best things about fourth is that that is pretty much in the hands of the player--as long as the GM is not a power-tripping arse).
bannockburn
We had _one_ of those gimmicky characters with such an awesome combination of things in my groups.
I've met maybe two others on conventions. Both usually had lower initiative scores than simple but solid street samurai builds with wired reflexes 2 and a high reaction. So yeah, I say: whatever. It never felt like wired reflexes were useless smile.gif
Agreed on the MBW, though. That was usually a cyberzombie-only thing.

Still, it is a good thing that boosted reflexes do not work with other ware in SR4, and hence, in SR2050.
The totally different nature of fixed IP would make this indeed an overpowered option.
All4BigGuns
Well, the only "long running" character in SR3 that I managed to have--long running games are quite rare in our group...some are too distractable for a game to last--had the highest Reaction and Initiative on the team, having only Muscle Replacement--not Augmentation or Toner--level 4 and after purchasing Synaptic Accelerator level 2 when we got our first BIG pay-out, and it worked rather well. In fact, I never saw an SR3 character with higher until I ran across a ridiculous character later that had Delta-grade MBW level 4.
nezumi
QUOTE (All4BigGuns @ Jan 18 2013, 12:13 PM) *
Well, seeing as the combination is cheaper, and yet more effective than Wired Reflexes, there's that one being rendered useless.


BR+SA costs $290k, but 2.8 essence and 1.0 bio. It adds 6-26 initiative, with an average of 16, but a reflex bonus of only 2.
WR costs $300k, 1.5 essence. It adds 9-24 initiative, with an average of 16.5, and a reflex bonus of 6.

WR is demonstrably better. There are only a handful of exceptions;
1) If the character bought BR prior to M&M, SA let him upgrade (but WR doesn't).
2) You really like that high variability (especially at the lowest level, you buy BR lvl 1 + SA lvl 2 for 3 dice, but no reaction bonus)
3) You can buy BR at alpha and beta levels for a lot less than WR, which lets you defray those essence costs more quickly (but eats up that $10k savings and makes WR the cheapest option).
All4BigGuns
When I played that character, I had enough to spend money on (I wanted Super Platinum Doc Wagon for character reasons), so I didn't buy ANY Initiative or Reaction enhancements in character creation. Didn't have any trouble either. Only thing that caused me to not 'go first' was that the unaugmented mundane with adrenaline surge had "god rolls" on Initiative and attack rolls.
Cain
Boosted reflexes also were a lot cheaper than any other option, with a lower essence cost. That made the lower levels quite attractive to characters on a budget and with limited essence slots, like a cybermage. I never found the higher levels to be worth it, though, as anyone who needed raw speed could get wired. I toyed with the combination when I built the speed samurai, but I found that wired 3 was just better overall.
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