Cannon Companion p. 48 under Actioneer Line, last sentence: "The long coat [...] does not count as a separate item for layering armor."

This has apparently been adressed once before here, but I have reason to believe wrong conclusions were drawn there, or at least for the wrong reasons.

In that thread, TinkerGnome quotes the following from the Outfit Components section on pp. 45-46: "These items are designed to be worn with other garments as part of an ensemble. ... The layering armor rules (p.285,SR3) do not count toward the components of such an outfit when worn together; however, they do count if the outfit (or parts of it) are worn with other pieces of armor or armor clothing."

TinkerGnome left out this: "Lines in which the components may be combined in this manner are noted with a © in the tables." The Actioneer is certainly not the only line with a © marking, and no other © marked line says anything like the Actioneer Long Coat entry does. Indeed there is no mention of other Actioneer-pieces not counting as separate items for layering armor.

To the questions: Do people think that the line about not counting as a separate item in the Actioneer Long Coat entry slipped there and has no meaning whatsoever? That perhaps the ALC entry was written when the quoted part in the Outfit Components section had not been written yet, or perhaps the person writing the ALC entry was simply not every of it/was not thinking coherently.

Or do you think that the Actioneer Long Coat should be similarly excluded from stacking calculations as Form-Fitting Body Armor? In other words, that it should not count towards the Quickness penalties from stacked armor.

(No mention in Errata or FAQ, and the thread I linked above was the only relevant one I found. Feel free to answer with a single link if this is explained somewhere.)

It's one of those weird ones.

Basically, this is how it works. When wearing the Jacket, the Long Coat is treated as layered for the purposes of how much armor it provides (in other words, +1/+1), giving it a total armor value of 5/3 with the whole ensemble. The Long Coat doesn't count for purposes of determining the other penalties for layering armor, however, much like Form-Fitting Body Armor. If you're not wearing the Jacket, you get the full +2/+2 of the Long Coat.

I talked to Mike in a few emails about the subject a year or two ago.

So at least someone knows. Great!

I'm not sure I quite understood you though. Are you saying that, like FFBA, it doesn't count for the armor stacking penalties (ie the Quickness penalties), regardless of whether you wear it with the Actioneer Jacket or not? Which, I guess, would then mean that it does count against the Combat Pool penalties in all cases.

that's how i've always read it. the longcoat counts as layering if you wear it over the regular jacket; if you wear it over your shirt, it's not layering.

Example time, then:

Assume you have QUI 5 and are wearing an Armored Jacket (Ball-5/Imp-3). Then you put on the Actioneer Long Coat.

Am I correct that you'd then have a total armor rating of Ball-6/Imp-4, -1 Combat Pool and no Quickness penalties? Or would you have Ball-6/Imp-4, -1 Combat Pool and +1 QUI penalty?

[Edit]My bad, this part was not necessary. The Long Coat, like all other single items in a (Combinable) line, does not count as a separate item when combined with other items in that line, but cannot be combined with the Suit Jacket because they have asterisks. The first part still puzzles me greatly.[/Edit]

My impression is the Vashion long coat doesn't count against layering penalties only when used with the Vashion ensemble.

When coupled with any other form of armor like the secure jacket (for example), the character incurs normal layering penalties.

When worn alone, the Vashion long coat functions like any other piece of stand-alone armor.

-Siege

Edit: In contrast, the FFBA doesn't count towards layering, regardless of what armor it's coupled with.

Siege: Then you think the line I quoted about the Actioneer Long Coat should not be there?

Waiting on A Clockwork Lime's final word...

sorta. you still have to halve the lower-rated armor's effective rating, when layering with FFBA.

part 1: i believe you'd have -1 CP and +1 Qui TN. however it works for normal layering is how it'd work in this case.

part 2: 5/3, -1 CP, +1 Qui TN. the long coat is not meant to be layered over the suit jacket, and acts as normal layered armor if you do so. if you were wearing only the high-collar shirt, slacks, and longcoat, it would not count as layering.

now your forgeting that items marked by * can be intercahnged but cant be worn at the same time as they basicly take up the spot on your body.

so you cant wear the suit jacket and the long coat at the same time given the table.

most likely its something that slipped past proofreading, maybe they set up the longcoat and the rest as a special case first and then tought "hey would it not be cool if we had more like those and just make a general rule for them?"...

as the text says that its made specialy for bodyguards i take it that its designed to replace a normal suit jacket rather then act as a real long coat. basicly its a suit jacket that reaches you to you knees or there about rather then stopping just below your belt area...

So that's 2 votes for "That line should not be there"...

And you're right about the Jacket, there's the asterisk. In other words, if you wore Hi-collar, Slacks, Long Coat: 1 + 1.5 + 2 = 4 Ballistic, .5 + .5 + 2 = 3 Impact, and no penalties to anything if you have QUI 4.

er, right, hob, that's what i said. if you wear the suit jacket and the longcoat, you're layering; if you wear just the longcoat, you're not.

just one problem mfb, they are not suppose to be worn at the same time, layering or not layering given the *...

Yeah, that's basically how it works.

When wearing nothing but the Vashon Island Actioneer Line ensemble, your total armor rating is going to be 5/3 but it only counts as 4/2 for purposes of your standard layering penalties (Quickness and Combat Pool). Without the Long Coat it's the same thing but your armor rating is only 4/2. If you're not wearing your jacket but have everything else on, the total armor value is 4/3 (rounded from 4.5/3.75) and counts as 2/1 (2.5/1.75) for purposes of layering. No matter how you wear it, the Long Coat never counts as layering, but its armor rating is only halved if worn at the same time you're wearing the jacket.

In other words, the Long Coat is "free" armor that works pretty much exactly like Form-Fitting Body Armor. With the jacket it provides +1/+1 to the complete ensemble and +2/+2 to the ensemble without the jacket. Those numbers are not applied for the purposes of determing anything else about the suit. Well, other than weight, as if anyone ever really keeps track of that crap.

One final note: The entire outfit counts as one piece of armor as far as other armor types go when it comes to layering. Thus the entire outfit is still 5/3 for actual armor and 4/2 for purposes of determining the other layering penalties. If you slipped on some FFBA it'd jump to 7/3 and still only count as 4/2.

Coolest single suit of armor in the game and custom designed for bodyguard types or characters with a Quickness of 4 if ever there was one.

Does that make sense? My ability to explain myself sucks ass.

Uh...eh...errr...sure?

I'll have to run it past my GM and see if he buys it. I may have a new outfit combination.

-Siege

Why do you think it'd be questionable?

Secure Jacket: Conceal 9, Bal 5, Imp 3, Price 850Y
Vashon Island Suit: Conceal 13, Bal 5, Imp 3, Price 2,650Y

So 1,800 nuyen is buying you +4 Conceal, long coat cover bonus, and lets you wear it with a Quickness of 4 instead of 5. In exchange for something that costs more than 3 times as much. Don't see the problem.

It's nice, but hardly game-breaking.

yes, hobgoblin, that's what i'm talking about. the suit jacket and the longcoat are not designed to be worn together, any more than an armored vest and armored jacket are designed to be worn together. but--like the vest and jacket--you can still pull the longcoat on over your suit jacket. the price you pay for doing so is that it counts as layering; the jacket's armor bonus is halved, and you stand to lose CP and take Qui TN mods.

This is slightly off topic here, but what, exactly, does the concealability rating on the coat measure? I'd always taken it to represent whether or not the article is recognized as armor, but with something like the Actioneer, it's fairly distinctive and seems to only come in armor.

Uhm, it's just a really nice suit. The Concealability works just like every other type of armor; if you don't spot that its armor, all you know is that it's a nice suit. It's not like all Vashon Island makes is hard-core bodyguard suits, yanno.

Im not sure why anyone is confused.

It is part of the ensemble entry. It isnt 'combinable' because you can either wear it or the suit jacket, not both. It doesnt count as a seperate item for layering because the enteir ensemble is 'one' armor piece.

So example:
You wear the Vashion Island Actioneer Line. You choose the Suit Jacket, slacks, and hi-collar shirt for a total ratings of 4/2, or the Long Coat, slacks, and hi-collar shirt for a total ratings of 4.5/3 (treated as 4/3). And for the purposes of layering armor, you only have 1 thing on.

Its obviously intended to be a pants, shirt, overcoat set; either a suit jacket or a long coat. Anyone trying to manipulate that one line of text into something its clearly not and turn it into free armor is just being an idiot.

Its there to clarify that as the only ensemble piece to mimic a seperate entry it is, in fact, part of the ensemble. For any other ensemble set youd have to wear a normal long coat and take the usual layering penalties.

indeed. and it's not like other companies don't manufacture similar suits that aren't armored! i'd allow someone to use a fashion-related knowledge skill as complementary dice on the perception test, though ("hey, that's not Armani, that's Vashon Island--he's wearing armor! how gauche!").

No, you're the one who's confused. No one takes off their suit jacket when they decide to leave the office or otherwise go out. That's just stupid.

It's just an odd set of rules. They work out perfectly well as written. No manipulation is taking place; when worn with a Vashon Island Suit, the Long Coat's armor rating is layered but it doesn't actually count as layering because it was designed to be worn with the outfit as a whole. You know, just like Form-Fitting Body Armor. The only convulted part is that, for some reason, they decided that if you did want to wear it without the suit jacket, it would provide more armor than normal. Don't ask me why -- it's just a quirk for that particular ensemble.

And, once again, I talked about this thoroughly with Mike or Rob (I can't remember which, honestly, it's been a while). I wish I still had the emails so I could cut-and-paste 'em, but I don't. Sorry about that.

The best thing they could do is just errata away the two astericks and change the Long Coat to 1/1. Sure, it'd be 5/3 for both armor and layering, but it would make life so much simpler.