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Lionhearted
As we're just getting into SR again some parts tend to get cumbersome, combat in particular tends to bog down to a roll fest and thus is not very interesting.
P. 75 of SR4A suggests some alternative rules for combat, I've been looking in particular at the one where you drop DR tests in favour of armor as flat damage reduction.
So my question is, is any of the optional rules actually any good and do you have any experience with them?

Also our group enjoys using a grid with miniatures for battles, but I'm having trouble making it flow well with the distances and movement of SR combat. Any suggestions on how to amend this?
Teulisch
the problem with armor directly reducing DV is that you can get a LOT of armor under the current rules.

with a body of 7, you can wear a FFBA full suit with an armor jacket, helmet, and some securetech PPP extras for 17 ballistic armor at no penalty. reducing ballistic damage by 17 (a little less because of AP) is going to make someone seriously bulletproof. a Panther XXL is only 10P vs (17-5=) 12 armor. by the regular rules, that cannon will do its 10P vs body+12 dice. 10P vs 20 dice will on average result in about 3 damage. and this is before we add in cyberware (dermal sheath, cyberlimb armor) or extra soak dice for bone augmentation. heck, if we dont have a soak roll then how does this impact 'ware that adds soak dice? the only way to hurt high-armor targets is to roll very well to hit, probably with called shots

with this optional rule, armor is king and body is only good for wearing more armor (and resisting drugs). a possibly better idea would be to take the soak dice and divide by 3 (round up?) and have the defender soak that much. this gives you the average result of soak, and most humans will get 1 soak without armor. system stays balanced, and you have a better idea of survivability from being shot.


Lionhearted
Houseruled FFBA to not stack, it's still useful for low body characters, also houseruled specific area protection to only apply when the attack is directed towards that body part (I expect the players to argue that one a lot) Helmets always apply since the head is a high priority target.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 02:02 PM) *
Houseruled FFBA to not stack, it's still useful for low body characters, also houseruled specific area protection to only apply when the attack is directed towards that body part (I expect the players to argue that one a lot) Helmets always apply since the head is a high priority target.

There isn't a single piece of gear in SR, that is "specific area protection". Even when they're described as covering X particualr area, the armor value provided is whole-body.

Otherwise, in your game, you know what I'd do? Aim for the feet ... because aside from milspec suits, nothing specifically armors the feet, period.

"Oh, you're wearing an 8/5 Armor Jacket? Fine, I shoot you in the left kneecap. Your jacket doesn't cover it, so you have 0 armor there."

...

Of course, by the RAW, the Armor Jacket still armors their knees - bypassing it at the knee is no different from going for a neck shot, or trying to get in through the unzippered front of it, or whatever. 8DP penalty to bypass 8 armor, no matter where you aim.
NiL_FisK_Urd
There are two - the snake mesh socks from arsenal, and the eye protector things for cybereyes.
Lionhearted
Was refering specifically to the PPP, because no... a groin protection isn't going to help you from getting shot, it's going to help you from getting kicked in the balls.
I know there's no specific target system, but my plan is to only have the PPP extras help in certain situations... knee caps helps against falling damage or anything that would be in that height (like a devil rat or a mono tripwire) stuff like that.

Edit: and yes I would let you add the arm/leg armors to melee defense
_Pax._
Except, even the PPP is, RAW ... full-body armor.

Same for cyberlimb armor, by the way.

...

If you're going to restrict such location-specific stuff like that, you need to increase the armor they provide. That Securetech PPP Vitals Protector is great at +1/+1, when the bonusses are full-body. But if they're going to only count when the attack comes at my groin or my stomache, they'll need to provide at least 3-4 points of armor. Maybe more. Or the cost (especially, encumbrance) becomes unjustifiable, IMO.
Lionhearted
PPP doesn't count against encumbrance
_Pax._
Yes, it does.

They don't count as SEPARATE armor - but the points they provide, DO count towards encumbrance. 1:1, unlike FFBA.

They work exactly like Helmets and shields - which add to Encumbrance.


Rules for reference:

Arsenal, p49, "Securetech PPP"
"These armor pieces do not count as separate armor for purposes of encumbrance; instead, these items modify the rating of armor worn by their rating just as helmets and shields do (see Helmets and Shields, p.
327, SR4A, and Armor and Encumbrance, p. 161, SR4A)."



SR4A p161, "Armor and Encumbrance"
"If a character is wearing more than one piece of armor at a time, only the highest value (for either Ballistic or Impact) applies. Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor.

Too much armor, however, can slow a character down. If either of a character’s armor ratings exceeds his Body x 2, apply a –1 modifier to Agility and Reaction for every 2 points (or fraction thereof ) that his Body x 2 is exceeded. Note that this may a ect Initiative as well. If a character is wearing multiple armor items, add their ratings together before comparing to Body."
Lionhearted
Well, that's up to interpretation, as they're not actual armor items but rather armor modifiers. One could argue that they don't count against encumbrance.
Reading through the section it seems more likely that, that isn't the case. smile.gif
With my restrictions in place it seem rather clearcut however.

Edit: Actually no, if they don't count as stacked armor they clearly don't count as encumbrance
thorya
I agree with Teulisch, it does state applying armor directly to reducing DV but it doesn't say that it would necessarily be at the same rate as the total dice pool for the armor. I don't want to get into a RAW vs. RAI debate, but if I was going to run with no opposed damage rolls, I would reduce DV by (Armor +Body)/3 (rounded down).

They may even have intended that you be buying hits so that it would be (Armor+Body)/4, but I think that would get players up in arms.

Regarding the other possible alternate combat rules-
Under Deadlier Combat-
-Increase by 2, will make things slightly deadlier. Puts a lot of borderline things back into the threatening range.
-Only allow full defense on your own action. Honestly, when we started playing we thought this was the default and we tried the normal way and didn't like it. Too much debating whether to go full defense or not. It does make dodge a less attractive skill.
-Treat glitches on damage resistance tests as severe wounds. We generally do this too and like it, but it's not compatible with the no rolling opposed for damage resistance so probably not of interest to you.

-Handling all attacks as threshold rolls. Never played it, but I've considered using it before, if for no other reason than to actually have a chance that characters miss occasionally. I would play with every 3 reaction (rounding up) increasing threshold by 1, with that increase being lost on surprise rolls and if they've been attacked during the round already. It does eliminate one roll per attack.
-Cover as attack modifier. It makes it effectively cover less attractive for most situations. Most runners are throwing 15+ dice on attacks while defenders are throwing 3-5, -2 or -4 on a dice pool of 15 has a smaller impact than +2 or +4 on a dice pool of 4. And it doesn't actually save much time on rolls. (without modifier 15 vs. 4, attacker hits 94% of the time, attacker modifier -4, attacker hits 84% of the time, defender +4, attacker hits 79% of the time or to put it another way the attacker misses 30% more often under the standard rules.)


Epicedion
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 02:59 PM) *
Well, that's up to interpretation, as they're not actual armor items but rather armor modifiers. One could argue that they don't count against encumbrance.
Reading through the section it seems more likely that, that isn't the case. smile.gif
With my restrictions in place it seem rather clearcut however.

Edit: Actually no, if they don't count as stacked armor they clearly don't count as encumbrance


1) If they're modifiers to the base armor piece, then that armor piece (with its modified value) affects encumbrance.

2) What are you trying to get combat to do? More deadly, less deadly, or just fewer dice rolls?
Lionhearted
Haven't really had the opportunity to gauge the deadliness after I changed FFBA.
I'm trying to make combat flow better so we can focus less on what dice to roll and more on tactics and manuveuring.
Less rolls is something Im considering trying out towards that end.
Still wrestling with how to use the miniatures when squares are measured in 1m and many weapons don't start to get penalties until 25+ (larger then our grid)
_Pax._
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 02:59 PM) *
Well, that's up to interpretation, as they're not actual armor items but rather armor modifiers. One could argue that they don't count against encumbrance.

If PPP doesn't count for encumbrance, then neither do helmets (and equivalent) or shields - because the one is directly dependent on the other. Keep in mind, too, that shields must be full body, unless you reallyw ant to dig into some extensive (and IMO overly-complicated) rules about where the shield is or isn't covering, where it can or can't cover, HOW MUCH it can cover at one time, etc.

And futher, a basic Ballistic Shield is +6/+4. Letting someone have that much armor, completelty encumbrance-free, is .... well, "dangerous" is the word that comes to my mind. Because suddenly, the Body 3 guy who could only get a 6/4 armor fest ... can double their protection all the way to 12/8, withotu changing their encumbrance.

...

See what happens when you examine all teh ramifications of an interpretation? smile.gif

QUOTE
Edit: Actually no, if they don't count as stacked armor they clearly don't count as encumbrance

Completely and 100% disagree; I hold that the rules clearly mean, and explicitly state, the exact opposite.
Lionhearted
Yes, it seem like the more likely interpretation (as I've said already)
However if PPP only applies in special cases in my game it only makes sense to have them be encumbrance free. Helmets are full body, shields are full body.
and the guy walking around with a riot shield sticks out as a sour thumb.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 03:12 PM) *
Haven't really had the opportunity to gauge the deadliness after I changed FFBA.
I'm trying to make combat flow better so we can focus less on what dice to roll and more on tactics and manuveuring.
Less rolls is something Im considering trying out towards that end.
Still wrestling with how to use the miniatures when squares are measured in 1m and many weapons don't start to get penalties until 25+ (larger then our grid)


To use average size miniatures you should make each square 2 meters (or more). I'd actually recommend making the squares represent 5 meters (meaning most people would be able to walk 2 squares or run 5. You'd need to abstract "actual location" within a square, as each square would contain multiple features ("I move into this square and jump behind the leftmost desk") and for fringe cases you'd need to on-the-spot rule on range increments, but by and large those would work out without much fuss unless you're really nitpicky about precision. People in adjacent squares, for example, could be as close as 1 meter or as far apart as 10 depending on position within the square.
thorya
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 03:12 PM) *
Haven't really had the opportunity to gauge the deadliness after I changed FFBA.
I'm trying to make combat flow better so we can focus less on what dice to roll and more on tactics and manuveuring.
Less rolls is something Im considering trying out towards that end.
Still wrestling with how to use the miniatures when squares are measured in 1m and many weapons don't start to get penalties until 25+ (larger then our grid)


Have you tried making your squares count as more than 1 meter? 2, 3, or 5 meters a square should be workable. 2 meters per square puts you close to a D&D size. At 3 meters you're looking about essentially 10 ft by 10 ft squares (about as wide as a traffic lane). At 5 meters a square you're at about 16 by 16. It's not unreasonable for urban environments to use this scale. You can always have a separate inside building scale. At 3 meters a square, say humans etc. move 3 squares, run 8, dwarves move 2, run 6, trolls move at 5 squares, run at 11.

You can also cut down the speeds, seriously, people don't walk 6-7 miles per hour and don't run 18+ mph unless they're olympians.

Also, what is your team packing that they aren't getting penalties until 25+ meters? Most small arms are between 5-10 for short ranges. Unless they're using assault rifles and sport rifles.
Lionhearted
Considering using 2m squares for indoors and 5m for outdoors.
Most of them are using SMGs or shotties, the hacker got a sport rifle and the Sammy got his hands on an Ares Alpha during downtime (which he somehow thought he had RC8 with, good thing I looked over the sheets)
For some reason I thought SMGs went to 25m...
We also found out that frag grenades indoors explode alot...

Sidenote: I have it so that in slum/barrens areas anything goes, downtown it's more restricted.
Dolanar
if you are using a Laminated Matt, consider making it double Sided, 2 laminated matts, 1 side being for longer ranges each square acting as 5-10m for larger areas & the flip side for zoomed in forms, making each square 1m. Using this method you can have outside buildings on one side since there is a lot more range, & then when the team enters the building you can move the figures off, flip the map & suddenly have the inside the building scale map ready to go with everything where it should be.
Teulisch
that sounds like a lot of house rules. no wonder your having trouble getting combat to flow smoothly.

combat is deadly to begin with. the majority of runners do not and cannot focus on soak. reducing access to good armor (such as stacking FFBA and similar items) reduces the survivability of the weakest members more. the tank with a ton of soak can usually find another way to stack soak. the real change your house rule will have is to reduce the potential soak of a body 3 human.

a helpful thing to do, may be to look at the change to potential soak for each body rating under your house rule. also, look at how this can change the style and tone of your game. while some players look for the best soak, others look for cool-looking armor (and there is a lot of that).

a good solution for faster combat, may be to have NPC mooks always use a pre-determined result for soak(such as 1 per 4 dice), while letting the players roll soak.
Blade
I've used the following rules in a campaign:

- No soaking test
- Armor values are divided by two
- No FFBA
- Condition Monitors are 8+Attribute instead of 8+Attribute/2
- Damages are DV+net hits-(Armor-AP).

This made sure that a succesful attack led to damages, while letting the characters take a few hits before going down. It made cyber or magical armor more interesting to get and AP guns/ammo good to have around in case you faced an opposition with such armor.

But I honestly didn't find that removing the roll sped up the game that much.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 20 2013, 04:12 PM) *
Haven't really had the opportunity to gauge the deadliness after I changed FFBA.
I'm trying to make combat flow better so we can focus less on what dice to roll and more on tactics and manuveuring.
Less rolls is something Im considering trying out towards that end.
Still wrestling with how to use the miniatures when squares are measured in 1m and many weapons don't start to get penalties until 25+ (larger then our grid)


Then you do not want to use the optional rule to reduce damage by armor. It's as simple as that. Armor is providing about 2/3 of your damage resistance dice pool which just means you'll end up reducing more damage than you would with damage resistance tests and consequently extending combat because people just won't die as quick.
Umidori
If you want combat to take up less time in missions, the best way is to create missions where the primary obstacles to the completion of a run are not combat-based.

The last mission I ran for my group had almost zero combat - it was a whodunnit, tracking down a stolen item and the thief who took it, and figuring out why they bothered, as the stolen item had no practical value, merely aesthetic and sentimental value (and it also only exists in AR/VR). Lots of twists and turns, lots of piecing together the truth from bits of information scattered throughout a particular neighborhood.

The only actual combat was at the very end, after they've tracked down the thief and arranged a meeting to have the stolen program returned. The thief doesn't show up in person, instead using a drone to parlay, requesting a favor. The thief makes a somewhat humanitarian request - deal with a local biker gang that's been torching metahuman houses and places of worship, and the runners get the stolen item and a cash reward. The thief supplied them with a hefty data file full of incriminating photos and trideo, seemingly hacked from the gang's own commlinks. The runners independently confirmed the file's authenticity and decided to take direct combative action against the gang - but they could just as easily have blackmailed them instead, so combat was fully optional.

It was a much quicker run than some of our others, and the players rather enjoyed it. Next mission they get to actually meet the mystery hacker they tracked down in person. Should prove interesting.

~Umi
Lionhearted
Lengthy combat is not an issue, it's just clunky atm, part due to unfamiliarity among the players and myself. It becomes more about keeping track of the rolls then the visceral descriptions and tactical shenanigans we usually have.
Maybe Im just overthinking it, Im still worried my players will toss SR to the side again.
@Umi their very first run was like that, I wanted to ingrain that SR is as much about the legwork as the action and had them do check ups on a scientist selling information to another corp. Only two bullets were fired during that run.
Epicedion
The combat's clunky because there's too much crap to do:
calculate attack
roll attack
calculate defense
roll defense
calculate damage
calculate soak
roll soak
apply damage

That's at least 8 distinct steps, and all of them seem necessary.

One thing you can do is precalculate some values and keep them static:

Let's say that you always soak half your Body (round up). Write that down. Body is 5? Tick 3 damage off any incoming. Have armor? Take a third or a quarter (round up) of that value to add to your base Body soak (like you're buying hits). So Body 3 (Soak 2) plus an armor jacket (Ballistic 5 / Soak 2) would have you soaking 4 incoming damage every time you're shot.

Do the same with Defense. Reaction is 3? You automatically negate 2 of your attacker's dice.

So now you:
Roll attack
Subtract Defense
Calculate damage
Subtract Soak
Apply damage

And you've cut the number of steps by about a third. Your 17 armored troll might be able to regularly soak 13 damage, but that's an edge case and should involve artillery anyway.

You can always allow 'extra rolling' for special cases like using Edge or full defense dice. In the case of Edge they should roll the whole thing as normal to get the full reroll / luck benefits, but that will only happen a few times per session and be saved for Big Deal moments in combat.
Epicedion
To add:

Cover could either be rolled (think of it like a 'cover save' they get to roll) or could just be calculated as armor would -- per 3 or 4 hits (depending on how effective you want it to be). I think that would make normal cover worth about +1 or +2 defense, and blindfire worth about +2 or +3.

That'd make an average guy in cover worth about 3 or 4 defense, which seems about right as a threshold.
Dolanar
One thing you can do to speed things up is have people plan out their attacks ahead of time with their totals already added up, then you as GM hear their action & tell them to add or subtract X amount of dice for any modifiers, then they roll, if everything is already tallied on the players side, then it only comes down to shortcuts on your end as GM, & those are shortcuts that you can make easily if you choose to.
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