Hi all,
Long time since I have posted last, but I'm finally going to get back to shadowrun after a long break playing other games such as Pathfinder, Dragonstar & Dark Heresy. All much fun.
Though I've got a while to go, I've volunteered to GM Shadowrun 4th Ed. My group haven't played it yet (always been core 3rd Ed fans).
At the moment we are playing Pathfinder D&D in the Kingmaker campaign setting. For those of you that don't know, this is ia campaign where you create your own kingdom and through a series of random encounters and an on going plotline go about your business as a Baron-Duke-King as you expand your kingdom till the end of the adventure path.
As our group seems to be enjoying this type of sandbox semi-linear style play, I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing in Shadowrun.
And so, I am wondering if there is anyone out there with and pervious experience or can link me to any particular resource that might give me some foundation for working out how my PC's can take their street gang and expand out in Seattle to create a funky criminal empire.
I would be happy for this to be gritty or abstract. Whatever works really, but knowing my players they will think of all sorts of things to get up to and the last thing I want to say is "No you can't do that". Whether they are going to get into BTL dealing, pimping, money laundering, racketeering, or whatever, I want to be able to figure a background mechanic to allow them to administrate this relatively quickly while being able to get out on the streets and do deals, smack some people about, get attention of more powerful people and getting hired or attacked as and when appropriate.
Obviously skills will be taken into account so the players will be able to destroy, kill, intimidate or negotiate with anyone they like. Clearly I'm being ambiguous but thats just the nature of RPG eh!
Any help would be greatly welcome
Thank you all in advance.
Full Version: PC's Creating their own Gangland
I think if I was going to do this, I would lay out a system of neighborhoods, let's say 50. I'm sure there are some good descriptions/resources available in the cannon material for this.
For each neighborhood, I would define some stats:
How many people live there
Total Potential Earnings (how much money you can make a week in this neighborhood)
Breakdown of where it can be made
Security Level/Loan Star Presence
Corporate Presence
Anything else of note
General Description
Who Controls It
And develop a way to roll for this or generate it randomly with an excel sheet or similar
So for example(with just a crazy idea for rolling it)-
Lake View Terrace
Population: 5000 (3d6*1000)
Total Potential Earnings: 50,000 nuyen/week (population * 2d6)
Breakdown: Drugs 30%, BTL 20%, Numbers/Gambling 10%, Prostitution 10%, Extortion 5%, Theft 5%, Black market 15%, Misc. 5%, underground fighting 0%, running guns 0% (Decide on the categories you want, roll a d6 with 5% for each number, i.e. 4=20%. This should average around 15-20% each and make up the difference by adding or subtracting categories)
Security: Low (Roll a d6-
1.Negligible-i.e. squatters
2. Low- door locks, potentially armed residents
3. Medium-door locks, gates, fences, potentially armed residents
4. Above Average- door locks, gates, dogs, fences, likely armed residents, alarm systems
5. High- Security cameras, gates, mag-locks, likely armed residents, a security person, or gate attendant
6. Very High- Dedicated armed security, trained dogs, security systems and cameras)
Law Presence: Lone Star Patrols
Roll a d6- 1. No Presence, not worth their time or won't enter
2. Light Patrols- They'll roll through occasionally, but not a top priority. Maybe send a drone to buzz the area.
3. Patrols- Regular patrols, possibly a trouble area. Probably drones.
4. Stationed officer- Regular patrols, and usually an officer maintaining a public presence. Always drones watching.
5. High priority- Lots of regular patrols and always officers present. Possibly a station house in the neighborhood. Multiple surveillance drones
6. Corporate- A corporation maintains the law in this neighborhood.
Other Facts- It's got a big drainage pond in the area that some developer decided was a lake.
So just from a few rolls, I would describe Lake View Terrace as a Lower Middle Class Residential Area pretty sparsely populated, probably a lot of single family homes or some apartment building with a decent number of SINners. The residence are cautious, but not super high security and you probably won't see anything bigger than a taser. There aren't a lot of businesses in the area so anything you'll be stealing is stuff from apartments and crappy cars, so probably not worth your time. There is a relatively high level of users and addicts in the neighborhood and it's a decent place to unload stolen commercial goods at discount prices. Loan star comes through to keep up appearances and has an eye in the sky, but should be pretty easy to avoid. Still, a good drug/BTL network should be able to gross a pretty good 20-25K a week.
Now the more difficult part in my opinion, who controls it, at least criminal activity wise.
Again, I think I'd roll 1d6.
1. No one, this is a nice squeaky clean neighborhood.
2. Independents (low level thugs, dealers, etc. but nothing organized)
3. Neighborhood Street gang.
4. Big Street Gang.
5. Syndicate (Mafia, triad, etc.)
6. Multiple (likely either fighting or having divided up the who runs what)
For this I got 2, so Lake View Terrace is run by independent operators. Just the sort of place someone with ambition could take over without any organized opposition and possibly gain some talented recruits.
Then I would want to stat out the possible opposition. I think I would just define them with a few general categories and roll for all the appropriate things in that fall in the category every time the group encounters them. Maybe adjust up or down depending upon whether the opposition is an enforcer or the brains.
Combat, Stealth, Vehicle, Social, Perception, Technical (includes making drugs, explosives, etc.)
Roll 2d6 for each, add +1 for a Big Street Gang, +3 for a Syndicate
So for Lake View Terrace-
Combat 10 (probably also an indicator of the quality of weapons they're packing)
Stealth 6
Vehicle 7 (also would use it to indicate the quality of vehicles)
Social 11
Perception 7
Technical 5
So generally the opposition is disorganized, but experienced at fighting (probably indicates some fighting between independents), pretty social (probably means that a lot of these guys have cover identities and community ties), and is a little low on technical know-how.
Anyway, just some ideas.
For each neighborhood, I would define some stats:
How many people live there
Total Potential Earnings (how much money you can make a week in this neighborhood)
Breakdown of where it can be made
Security Level/Loan Star Presence
Corporate Presence
Anything else of note
General Description
Who Controls It
And develop a way to roll for this or generate it randomly with an excel sheet or similar
So for example(with just a crazy idea for rolling it)-
Lake View Terrace
Population: 5000 (3d6*1000)
Total Potential Earnings: 50,000 nuyen/week (population * 2d6)
Breakdown: Drugs 30%, BTL 20%, Numbers/Gambling 10%, Prostitution 10%, Extortion 5%, Theft 5%, Black market 15%, Misc. 5%, underground fighting 0%, running guns 0% (Decide on the categories you want, roll a d6 with 5% for each number, i.e. 4=20%. This should average around 15-20% each and make up the difference by adding or subtracting categories)
Security: Low (Roll a d6-
1.Negligible-i.e. squatters
2. Low- door locks, potentially armed residents
3. Medium-door locks, gates, fences, potentially armed residents
4. Above Average- door locks, gates, dogs, fences, likely armed residents, alarm systems
5. High- Security cameras, gates, mag-locks, likely armed residents, a security person, or gate attendant
6. Very High- Dedicated armed security, trained dogs, security systems and cameras)
Law Presence: Lone Star Patrols
Roll a d6- 1. No Presence, not worth their time or won't enter
2. Light Patrols- They'll roll through occasionally, but not a top priority. Maybe send a drone to buzz the area.
3. Patrols- Regular patrols, possibly a trouble area. Probably drones.
4. Stationed officer- Regular patrols, and usually an officer maintaining a public presence. Always drones watching.
5. High priority- Lots of regular patrols and always officers present. Possibly a station house in the neighborhood. Multiple surveillance drones
6. Corporate- A corporation maintains the law in this neighborhood.
Other Facts- It's got a big drainage pond in the area that some developer decided was a lake.
So just from a few rolls, I would describe Lake View Terrace as a Lower Middle Class Residential Area pretty sparsely populated, probably a lot of single family homes or some apartment building with a decent number of SINners. The residence are cautious, but not super high security and you probably won't see anything bigger than a taser. There aren't a lot of businesses in the area so anything you'll be stealing is stuff from apartments and crappy cars, so probably not worth your time. There is a relatively high level of users and addicts in the neighborhood and it's a decent place to unload stolen commercial goods at discount prices. Loan star comes through to keep up appearances and has an eye in the sky, but should be pretty easy to avoid. Still, a good drug/BTL network should be able to gross a pretty good 20-25K a week.
Now the more difficult part in my opinion, who controls it, at least criminal activity wise.
Again, I think I'd roll 1d6.
1. No one, this is a nice squeaky clean neighborhood.
2. Independents (low level thugs, dealers, etc. but nothing organized)
3. Neighborhood Street gang.
4. Big Street Gang.
5. Syndicate (Mafia, triad, etc.)
6. Multiple (likely either fighting or having divided up the who runs what)
For this I got 2, so Lake View Terrace is run by independent operators. Just the sort of place someone with ambition could take over without any organized opposition and possibly gain some talented recruits.
Then I would want to stat out the possible opposition. I think I would just define them with a few general categories and roll for all the appropriate things in that fall in the category every time the group encounters them. Maybe adjust up or down depending upon whether the opposition is an enforcer or the brains.
Combat, Stealth, Vehicle, Social, Perception, Technical (includes making drugs, explosives, etc.)
Roll 2d6 for each, add +1 for a Big Street Gang, +3 for a Syndicate
So for Lake View Terrace-
Combat 10 (probably also an indicator of the quality of weapons they're packing)
Stealth 6
Vehicle 7 (also would use it to indicate the quality of vehicles)
Social 11
Perception 7
Technical 5
So generally the opposition is disorganized, but experienced at fighting (probably indicates some fighting between independents), pretty social (probably means that a lot of these guys have cover identities and community ties), and is a little low on technical know-how.
Anyway, just some ideas.
An excellent start. Thank you for your input Thorya. I've just read through and it seems a good basis. Will analyse and think on it.
Any other ideas or evolutions of the above are welcome.
Any other ideas or evolutions of the above are welcome.
Group contact rules from the companion might provide some inspiration.
Excellent, I shall look into that area as well. Thanks Lionhearted.
Also will draw up a selection of goons available for hire with different availabilities and weekly wages.
Was also thinking of throwing in an additional mechanic regarding the loyalty of the goons in the gang in general.
Could perhaps use two scales. Firstly which is based fear & trust and the second between chaotic & organised.
The Chaotic/Organised scale is as simple as it sounds. The more organised a gang is, the more efficient their collection of income is. This can be negatively effected by events and the type of business the gang gets involved in.
Im thinking that fear promotes goons that will lie to keep themselves in the good books of the PC's and employed, where as trust will promote better efficiency. Therefore if the lower the score, more of a penalty will be to the chaotic/organised scale there is (cant think of better ways to describe these atm).
Im thinking that I don't necessarily want to push the players into making a gang that is trustful and organised. I want them to feel free to run with a chaotic gang run through FEAR if they like. Just need to think up ways of having either ends of the scale having pro's and cons. Leading and organised gang through fear should be slightly more difficult but equally rewarding.
Just throwing the ideas out there myself!
Also will draw up a selection of goons available for hire with different availabilities and weekly wages.
Was also thinking of throwing in an additional mechanic regarding the loyalty of the goons in the gang in general.
Could perhaps use two scales. Firstly which is based fear & trust and the second between chaotic & organised.
The Chaotic/Organised scale is as simple as it sounds. The more organised a gang is, the more efficient their collection of income is. This can be negatively effected by events and the type of business the gang gets involved in.
Im thinking that fear promotes goons that will lie to keep themselves in the good books of the PC's and employed, where as trust will promote better efficiency. Therefore if the lower the score, more of a penalty will be to the chaotic/organised scale there is (cant think of better ways to describe these atm).
Im thinking that I don't necessarily want to push the players into making a gang that is trustful and organised. I want them to feel free to run with a chaotic gang run through FEAR if they like. Just need to think up ways of having either ends of the scale having pro's and cons. Leading and organised gang through fear should be slightly more difficult but equally rewarding.
Just throwing the ideas out there myself!
Just remember to abstract fights between gangs or you'll be rolling dice for a week
This is a great chance to use Street Cred and Notoriety-
Street Cred- Effects whether people are willing to deal with you, what cut you can demand, how likely people are to mess with you, etc.
Notoriety- It makes people less willing to deal with you, but makes people less likely to mess with you when they do. You can demand higher cuts, but you might drive some people to defect or to stab you in the back.
I would also give the opposition street cred and notoriety, so that they know who they're dealing with and can decide if they want to make a deal with a guy that has a reputation for knee capping people that disappoint him.
Also, if they're going to be setting up a criminal empire, they're going to need some sort of network and some way of determining the quality of their underlings and how the breakdown of profits goes. That sounds like a lot of leadership, negotiation, and intimidation rolls. Depending on how much they control, their cut of the total available might go down quick. So let's consider making and dealing cram (which admittedly is a low profit game, so you're probably dealing multiple things)-
You'll need- a cook and supplies or supplier, dealers, protection, and a way to launder the money. Admittedly a lot of this early on will be done by the group.
So from each dose of cram that sells for 10 nuyen, in Lake View Terrace you might be able to sell 200 doses in a week. So 2000 nuyen on cram a week.
-You buy wholesale and negotiated a price from the triads at 4 nuyen a dose, so 800 nuyen to your supplier. But if they had screw the negotiation, maybe 6 nuyen a dose and 1200 to your supplier. Or they cook themselves, and it's negotiation and contacts to get supplies and chemistry tests to cook.
-200 doses with probably multiple doses to the same users, you can probably get by on a single dealer. Your dealer takes 2 nuyen a dose, but if you have a high notoriety and intimidation, they could knock this down to 1.5 nuyen or even 1 nuyen a dose because their dealer's scared of them. There's also the chance that your dealer skips town with all the money, especially if he's dealing something high dollar or if the dealer's a user too. But for the math, 400 to the dealer.
-If it's just one neighborhood, you can probably provided your own muscle out of the group. Otherwise, I would say leadership and negotiation to hire some muscle. You hire a local thug and you toss him 200 nuyen a week to shake addicts down if they don't pay and otherwise pay him when you need him to scare off other dealers.
-Then you launder the money at 80 cents on the nuyen, so your actual cut is 480. Which the group has to divide up. The gang probably wants to invest in a restaurant or other small business to do this. The mafia owns so many restaurants because they're such good covers. You can buy enough food to make five meals, claim you spread it out and made ten meals and record sales for ten meals.
They probably don't want to micromanage this much, so you could probably just do drugs in general. In which case you up it to 3-4 dealers, get a steady supply at a good price, and hire a couple thugs on an as needed basis. So even if they're bringing in a total of 20K a week, after expenses they might be closer to 5K, which for a gang of 4 is just middle class lifestyle. If they cook in house, have some high loyalty thugs that don't need a lot of money and are content to just be part of the gang, and can lean hard on their dealers, they can probably push that to 10-15K.
Some more ideas-
Other possible criminal activities- Running cons, stealing personal information, matrix crime, dealing in fake ids, loan sharking, pirated software.
"random events"
Corporate Lottery- A corporation starts a legal lottery or gambling location, this cuts into the total you can make off of gambling in any surrounding neighborhood. 50% of the total available income goes to a corporation. Is there a way to dissuade your costumers going elsewhere? Do you want to mess with a corp?
Flooded Market- Drugs, BTL or the Black Market, take a hit. The street is flooded with something and it's making your profits take a dive. It could be a Walter White or someone that knocked over a big shipment and is unloading it. Find the source and shut it down, or risk another player in the market.
Someone's not respecting your Turf- Someone's cutting into your market. You have to defend your turf. Perhaps you just need to have a nice threatening chat with some punk that didn't know any better and in the future you'll get your cut. Maybe, you just need to make a few people disappear. How you handle this is going to directly effect your street cred.
Street Cred- Effects whether people are willing to deal with you, what cut you can demand, how likely people are to mess with you, etc.
Notoriety- It makes people less willing to deal with you, but makes people less likely to mess with you when they do. You can demand higher cuts, but you might drive some people to defect or to stab you in the back.
I would also give the opposition street cred and notoriety, so that they know who they're dealing with and can decide if they want to make a deal with a guy that has a reputation for knee capping people that disappoint him.
Also, if they're going to be setting up a criminal empire, they're going to need some sort of network and some way of determining the quality of their underlings and how the breakdown of profits goes. That sounds like a lot of leadership, negotiation, and intimidation rolls. Depending on how much they control, their cut of the total available might go down quick. So let's consider making and dealing cram (which admittedly is a low profit game, so you're probably dealing multiple things)-
You'll need- a cook and supplies or supplier, dealers, protection, and a way to launder the money. Admittedly a lot of this early on will be done by the group.
So from each dose of cram that sells for 10 nuyen, in Lake View Terrace you might be able to sell 200 doses in a week. So 2000 nuyen on cram a week.
-You buy wholesale and negotiated a price from the triads at 4 nuyen a dose, so 800 nuyen to your supplier. But if they had screw the negotiation, maybe 6 nuyen a dose and 1200 to your supplier. Or they cook themselves, and it's negotiation and contacts to get supplies and chemistry tests to cook.
-200 doses with probably multiple doses to the same users, you can probably get by on a single dealer. Your dealer takes 2 nuyen a dose, but if you have a high notoriety and intimidation, they could knock this down to 1.5 nuyen or even 1 nuyen a dose because their dealer's scared of them. There's also the chance that your dealer skips town with all the money, especially if he's dealing something high dollar or if the dealer's a user too. But for the math, 400 to the dealer.
-If it's just one neighborhood, you can probably provided your own muscle out of the group. Otherwise, I would say leadership and negotiation to hire some muscle. You hire a local thug and you toss him 200 nuyen a week to shake addicts down if they don't pay and otherwise pay him when you need him to scare off other dealers.
-Then you launder the money at 80 cents on the nuyen, so your actual cut is 480. Which the group has to divide up. The gang probably wants to invest in a restaurant or other small business to do this. The mafia owns so many restaurants because they're such good covers. You can buy enough food to make five meals, claim you spread it out and made ten meals and record sales for ten meals.
They probably don't want to micromanage this much, so you could probably just do drugs in general. In which case you up it to 3-4 dealers, get a steady supply at a good price, and hire a couple thugs on an as needed basis. So even if they're bringing in a total of 20K a week, after expenses they might be closer to 5K, which for a gang of 4 is just middle class lifestyle. If they cook in house, have some high loyalty thugs that don't need a lot of money and are content to just be part of the gang, and can lean hard on their dealers, they can probably push that to 10-15K.
Some more ideas-
Other possible criminal activities- Running cons, stealing personal information, matrix crime, dealing in fake ids, loan sharking, pirated software.
"random events"
Corporate Lottery- A corporation starts a legal lottery or gambling location, this cuts into the total you can make off of gambling in any surrounding neighborhood. 50% of the total available income goes to a corporation. Is there a way to dissuade your costumers going elsewhere? Do you want to mess with a corp?
Flooded Market- Drugs, BTL or the Black Market, take a hit. The street is flooded with something and it's making your profits take a dive. It could be a Walter White or someone that knocked over a big shipment and is unloading it. Find the source and shut it down, or risk another player in the market.
Someone's not respecting your Turf- Someone's cutting into your market. You have to defend your turf. Perhaps you just need to have a nice threatening chat with some punk that didn't know any better and in the future you'll get your cut. Maybe, you just need to make a few people disappear. How you handle this is going to directly effect your street cred.
Thread carefully with actually using the chemistry rules, it's one hell of a can of worms.
This is all great stuff.
Street Cred and Noteriety. Now thats sounds like what I'm talking about above exactly!
The idea's you're coming up with are the sorts of things I've been thinking about myself (been watching "The Wire" and "Burn Notice" which have been giving me lots similar plots).
Street Cred and Noteriety. Now thats sounds like what I'm talking about above exactly!
The idea's you're coming up with are the sorts of things I've been thinking about myself (been watching "The Wire" and "Burn Notice" which have been giving me lots similar plots).
I strongly recommend reading Freakanomics. One of the chapters examines the actual economics of an actual gang that deals crack. Basically, all but the top guy make next to nothing. They would actually make more working at McDonalds.
It kind of goes like this.
You drop a bag to the guy who runs the 4th and MLK corner.
He sells the 500 hits for 10 a piece. You pick up 5000, and give him 500. He pays the 3 guys that worked with him 100, and he keeps 200. You do that with the 9 other corners you control, and you made 45,000 for the day. You pay 20,000 for the next days haul, give the 3 guys you actually trust 500 each, 500 to the detective who let one of your guys walk away, 500 to the detective sergeant who's supposed to keep the drug sweeps out of your neighborhood, bag up 10,000 for just in case, put 2000 in your pocket, 500 to your lawyer and the other 10,000 gets deposited to the Swiss Bank account he set up for you.
Then, you go on to Tuesday. Basically the same in and out, just different people are getting a slice that day.
The top guy gets rich, some middle management guys do OK, and the rest of them bleed and die for 9 an hour.
The Wire demonstrates all this stuff too.
It kind of goes like this.
You drop a bag to the guy who runs the 4th and MLK corner.
He sells the 500 hits for 10 a piece. You pick up 5000, and give him 500. He pays the 3 guys that worked with him 100, and he keeps 200. You do that with the 9 other corners you control, and you made 45,000 for the day. You pay 20,000 for the next days haul, give the 3 guys you actually trust 500 each, 500 to the detective who let one of your guys walk away, 500 to the detective sergeant who's supposed to keep the drug sweeps out of your neighborhood, bag up 10,000 for just in case, put 2000 in your pocket, 500 to your lawyer and the other 10,000 gets deposited to the Swiss Bank account he set up for you.
Then, you go on to Tuesday. Basically the same in and out, just different people are getting a slice that day.
The top guy gets rich, some middle management guys do OK, and the rest of them bleed and die for 9 an hour.
The Wire demonstrates all this stuff too.
The chapter in Freakonomics is based on an academic paper called An Economic Analysis of a Drug-Selling Gang's Finances by Steven D. Levitt and Sudhir Venkatesh. That link will take you to the full text of the article. It is not overly long (as academic papers go) and is insightful. Mr. Venkatesh has written some other books on the subject of gang life and underworld economies that you might find relevant, depending on which direction you take your game. I can tell you about those separately, if you like.
I know this because I run a ganger campaign of my own and I spend a lot of time doing research trying to make it as realistic as possible. That said, one of the first points of advice I would give is be careful about making things too realistic. It can result in a lot of behind-the-scenes work (as neatly outlined by Thorya) that may or may not be interesting or entertaining to you as the GM. Let fun be your guide and follow it where it leads.
I put together a game wiki to help myself and my players keep track of things. I spent a lot of time developing a neighborhood map with details about neighborhood locations, which I think has been extremely valuable. I've also put together some basic spreadsheets to represent the economics of the gang's income stream (primarily protection payments, with a bit of gambling on the side and a growing amount of gun running). I am definitely not doing everything right as the GM as far as gameplay, but I'm reasonably proud of the sandbox itself.
I'm at work at the moment but I'll try to write up some tips about my experience when I get more of a chance. Now I'm curious about the Kingmaker adventure path to see what I could learn from that.
I know this because I run a ganger campaign of my own and I spend a lot of time doing research trying to make it as realistic as possible. That said, one of the first points of advice I would give is be careful about making things too realistic. It can result in a lot of behind-the-scenes work (as neatly outlined by Thorya) that may or may not be interesting or entertaining to you as the GM. Let fun be your guide and follow it where it leads.
I put together a game wiki to help myself and my players keep track of things. I spent a lot of time developing a neighborhood map with details about neighborhood locations, which I think has been extremely valuable. I've also put together some basic spreadsheets to represent the economics of the gang's income stream (primarily protection payments, with a bit of gambling on the side and a growing amount of gun running). I am definitely not doing everything right as the GM as far as gameplay, but I'm reasonably proud of the sandbox itself.
I'm at work at the moment but I'll try to write up some tips about my experience when I get more of a chance. Now I'm curious about the Kingmaker adventure path to see what I could learn from that.
It appears Sudhir Venkatesh learned more then information from hanging around minor criminals. IIRC, he ended up having to come up with quite a bit of cash to pay back his "research expenses" when the school did an audit.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/nyregion...ed=all&_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/nyregion...ed=all&_r=0
Mystweaver,
I created an Excel Spreadsheet based on what thorya posted. It's a little bigger than suggested (it's 100 areas in a 10 x 10 grid). It contains most of thorya's ideas. The random numbers generated in it were done with thorya's suggestions. I've included an Instructions tab with notes. Here is the link for the sheet, feel free to use it, discard it, or what ever.
-D
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D024671_68_6698322054
I created an Excel Spreadsheet based on what thorya posted. It's a little bigger than suggested (it's 100 areas in a 10 x 10 grid). It contains most of thorya's ideas. The random numbers generated in it were done with thorya's suggestions. I've included an Instructions tab with notes. Here is the link for the sheet, feel free to use it, discard it, or what ever.
-D
https://www.sugarsync.com/pf/D024671_68_6698322054
DMiller, that's awesome!
One note, you could have left the random number formula's in if you change the calculations to manual. Then it only generates new numbers when you hit F9 (at least in 2007).
One note, you could have left the random number formula's in if you change the calculations to manual. Then it only generates new numbers when you hit F9 (at least in 2007).
Glad you liked it.
-D
-D
DMiller thanks for the spreadsheet looks good. Great place to start. Tecumseh, that game Wiki is excellent. A lot more detail than I was thinking. You have gone down to the street level on a building by building level.
I like this idea but I am thinking of taking an area, say Puyallup from the SR3/4 map, getting its rough boarders, then going to Googlemaps and working out the exact district. Upon which time I will then print off various scale maps.
As far as character rep goes, we use 6mm models so I can easily replicate this which a bit of photoshop juju.
Now instead of going down the building by building route, I'll be going on a block by block route instead (I think). This allow the PC's to actually gain a territory. Eventually they can expand into other districts but this will be something for the distant future... if the game lasts that long...
I like this idea but I am thinking of taking an area, say Puyallup from the SR3/4 map, getting its rough boarders, then going to Googlemaps and working out the exact district. Upon which time I will then print off various scale maps.
As far as character rep goes, we use 6mm models so I can easily replicate this which a bit of photoshop juju.
Now instead of going down the building by building route, I'll be going on a block by block route instead (I think). This allow the PC's to actually gain a territory. Eventually they can expand into other districts but this will be something for the distant future... if the game lasts that long...
Just looking at google maps, there is so much room to play with. Could easily have each "grid" in DMiller's speadsheet as a 5x5 street/ave area.
Can adjust the figures according to the size of each area. Also, the characters would clearly start in one area and move out from there. If they want to know what their surrounding territories have in them, they will have to scope them out. This could be with surveillence (slow results, no cost), or spread some cash (quick results, high cost, increases loyalty), or break some kneecaps for info about the area (quick results, no cost increases noteriety).
Can adjust the figures according to the size of each area. Also, the characters would clearly start in one area and move out from there. If they want to know what their surrounding territories have in them, they will have to scope them out. This could be with surveillence (slow results, no cost), or spread some cash (quick results, high cost, increases loyalty), or break some kneecaps for info about the area (quick results, no cost increases noteriety).
This got me thinking and of course I had to go ahead and make a spreadsheet to roll up some random gangers. It's a little disorganized, but the front sheet gives you a random number of (identical) gangers with various skills and attributes calculated. I also developed a random neighborhood and gang name generator by pulling random words from seattle neighborhood names and American Gang names. Not sure if it will be useful to anyone. It needs a little cleaning up.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45448342/SR%20Thug%20Gen.xlsx
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45448342/SR%20Thug%20Gen.xlsx
Block-by-block is a reasonable compromise. One of my principle challenges in administering my game has been to balance the sense of scale. Shadowrun rules are strongest at the individual action level; things grind to a halt when you try to adjudicate large-scale actions like turf wars or drug wholesaling that involve large numbers of participants. I've tried to apply abstractions of the rules but I'm never completely satisfied, probably because I'm not a game designer and it's hard to strike the right balance between fun and realism. I know my original recommendation was to err on the side of fun, but woe be to the Santa Claus GM who gives away everything for free. When the scale of the game is larger, the risk of the challenge getting out of balance is larger too.
If you ever figure out a background mechanic for how to administer things behind the scenes, I hope you share it! With luck your experience with the Kingmaker adventure path will provide some inspiration and produce some fun. Keep us updated on what you do and how it goes.
If you ever figure out a background mechanic for how to administer things behind the scenes, I hope you share it! With luck your experience with the Kingmaker adventure path will provide some inspiration and produce some fun. Keep us updated on what you do and how it goes.
Definately,
My players are a creative lot so I'll throw it out to them as well (I've just shared the link here).
I've been playing with Google maps and have already started creating some maps. Using exisiting district boarders that I've found from old SR maps and overlayed them. Looking interesting already.
Will also be using them as scale representations if and when a fight breaks out. We have a spare monitor that we use to display maps n things already. Could quite easily use this to show the players what their territory looks like and use real maps for their territory (though some imagination will have to be used as 2072 Seattle in Puyallup is not so green!).
Also if they have a fight in Downtown Seattle, Google Earth with its 3D models will be awesome!
My players are a creative lot so I'll throw it out to them as well (I've just shared the link here).
I've been playing with Google maps and have already started creating some maps. Using exisiting district boarders that I've found from old SR maps and overlayed them. Looking interesting already.
Will also be using them as scale representations if and when a fight breaks out. We have a spare monitor that we use to display maps n things already. Could quite easily use this to show the players what their territory looks like and use real maps for their territory (though some imagination will have to be used as 2072 Seattle in Puyallup is not so green!).
Also if they have a fight in Downtown Seattle, Google Earth with its 3D models will be awesome!
Remember Mystweaver, one of the good things about Kingmaker is your ability to customise the land you have claimed and the building and improvement of your cities. You will need to come up with some sort of improvement system perhaps. How about that blocks can support a certain amount of improvements that change its characteristics, such as increasing the revenue you can get or providing a resource to your gang (that could mean components to finished products)?
Also you need to decide if you will track the gang terriroty as one thing (like Kingmaker does, summing the bonuses\penatlies and trouble can occur anywhere) or block by block (more realistic, trouble occurs in places you aren't maintaining properly).
Finally, decide your mass combat rules in advance. The Kingmaker rules basically make armies psuedo characters and then its a fight between characters. Maybe you could do something for gang squads (with bonuses determined by the make up of the squad) and then try and only get the PCs involced in small, manageable fights (to save your sanity from rolling for 50 gangers) or have them resolve the climactic moments of larger battles in cut scene like moments 'film style'.
Also you need to decide if you will track the gang terriroty as one thing (like Kingmaker does, summing the bonuses\penatlies and trouble can occur anywhere) or block by block (more realistic, trouble occurs in places you aren't maintaining properly).
Finally, decide your mass combat rules in advance. The Kingmaker rules basically make armies psuedo characters and then its a fight between characters. Maybe you could do something for gang squads (with bonuses determined by the make up of the squad) and then try and only get the PCs involced in small, manageable fights (to save your sanity from rolling for 50 gangers) or have them resolve the climactic moments of larger battles in cut scene like moments 'film style'.
Been looking at the Safehouses sourcebook which has some interesting ways of valuing stuff. Any other sources out there people recommend for making up a new lifestyle? Got lots to consider.
Improving buildings may well be part of it; unlike kingmaker however, when you take over a block, buildings already exist. On an existing build you can do several things:
- Improved: Change Entertainment, Necessities, Security & add appropriate qualities (some of which are not possible)
- Rebuild: This is demolishing the existing build and making something new: Expensive but you get exactly what you like.
- Anything else you can think of... I'm open to ideas.
Obviously, the price for doing this will be relative (it will be actual and time consuming). As I plan to use actual maps, we can measure the size of each property. I will approximate everything for expediency - and come up with a list of buildings that (like kingmaker) provide various bonuses.
Outwith ripping off Kingmaker entirely (not something I want to do as we will be going from Kingmaker to this), I'd just like to have lots of things going on outwith having to worry about administrating many many properties.
I'm also thinking that its not like the gang actually OWNS any of the buildings, even if it has spent money on it so its pure risk and all assets will need appropriate protection.
Hopefully it won't be too complicated to come up with something simple.
Improving buildings may well be part of it; unlike kingmaker however, when you take over a block, buildings already exist. On an existing build you can do several things:
- Improved: Change Entertainment, Necessities, Security & add appropriate qualities (some of which are not possible)
- Rebuild: This is demolishing the existing build and making something new: Expensive but you get exactly what you like.
- Anything else you can think of... I'm open to ideas.
Obviously, the price for doing this will be relative (it will be actual and time consuming). As I plan to use actual maps, we can measure the size of each property. I will approximate everything for expediency - and come up with a list of buildings that (like kingmaker) provide various bonuses.
Outwith ripping off Kingmaker entirely (not something I want to do as we will be going from Kingmaker to this), I'd just like to have lots of things going on outwith having to worry about administrating many many properties.
I'm also thinking that its not like the gang actually OWNS any of the buildings, even if it has spent money on it so its pure risk and all assets will need appropriate protection.
Hopefully it won't be too complicated to come up with something simple.
So he got to you then...
Yep, joined in 2002! and this is his first post.. Silly Echilda
I was refering to safehouses, there's a certain someone on this forum that... Uhm, go around and inform everyone how great it is. 
Runner's companion got advanced lifestyle rules btw.
Runner's companion got advanced lifestyle rules btw.
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Feb 1 2013, 03:48 PM) 
So he got to you then...
He is insidious...
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 2 2013, 05:26 PM)
He is insidious...
Doesn't hurt including a Hypnotoad with every copy of Safehouses
This is the idea of the maps I'm thinking of using.
Definitely going to be using a random territory "contents" generator. May end up having a few different tables depending on the type of territory it is. For example: on map 2, Location B is a complex of some sort (probably a shopping center). What that is in 2070 Ash shodden, volcano screwed Puyallup is another matters.
Thats one table as in 43 there is quite a lot of open space. This can be another table. Another table could be one for areas which have a lot of smaller buildings (almost certainly residential), like 31.
The un-named territory is the players starting area. The other maps are zoomed into this area (and of course one shows north Puyallup as I have completed it so far).
Any thoughts?
Auto Yard
North Puyallup
North central Puyallup
Zoomed in
Definitely going to be using a random territory "contents" generator. May end up having a few different tables depending on the type of territory it is. For example: on map 2, Location B is a complex of some sort (probably a shopping center). What that is in 2070 Ash shodden, volcano screwed Puyallup is another matters.
Thats one table as in 43 there is quite a lot of open space. This can be another table. Another table could be one for areas which have a lot of smaller buildings (almost certainly residential), like 31.
The un-named territory is the players starting area. The other maps are zoomed into this area (and of course one shows north Puyallup as I have completed it so far).
Any thoughts?
Auto Yard
North Puyallup
North central Puyallup
Zoomed in
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 28 2013, 11:10 AM)
Just remember to abstract fights between gangs or you'll be rolling dice for a week
The upcoming Sprawl Gangers skirmish game might help with that, and be a fun way to handle those sort of conflicts.
Or I could just crack out my Necromunda boxed set.
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