So.

A changeling with a Functional Tail: Thagomizer. They want to split their dice pool between two melee weapons (one in each hand) and the Exotic Weapon of the tail. Simply take the lesser Attribute + Skill total of the two weapon types, split it three ways, and then modify each separate attack? It kinda feels like that's too simple, or that I'm missing something important somewhere.

Also, unlike Shiva Arms, the Thagomizer entry makes no mention of requiring Ambidexterity, so I assume it simply gets treated like a second "dominant hand" automatically?

Additionally, would the Sangre y Acero bonus "+1 die for Exotic Melee Weapon attacks using a cyber-implant in an unusual location" count for the tail? Because it's essentially the exact same thing as a cyber-implant in an unusual location, just biological in nature.

For that matter, how do you handle the Two Weapon Style maneuver in cases of more than two limbs? Can one limb be used for the Full Defense action while all the rest are used to attack?

~Umi

Don't think about it too much or the universe will implode.
(Read: I have no bloody clue)

I really have no idea what RAW has to say about this. But if you are open to suggestions…

I think you are handling it correctly as far as smallest pool split 3 ways then apply modifiers. I would treat the tail as an additional “dominant hand” since it can’t grasp and is only basically a club. The martial arts maneuver could go either way, I’ll not make a suggestion on that either way as that should be a decision based on your style.

The question about “Two Weapon Style” with more than two limbs… I’d require the character to buy two-weapon style more than once, each instance of the ability allowing for an additional pair of weapons (or just an extra weapon in the case of odd-numbered limbs). I would allow a 3-limbed being with Two Weapon Style (bought twice) to be on full defense with one weapon while attacking with the other two.

Just my 2 ¥

-D

Hrm. Okay, so I guess I wasn't too far off after all. Huh.

A couple other thoughts.

The Attunement Metamagic for Adepts. Can you attune a Thagomizer? Again, kind of a weird thought since it's a biological body part, but it's mechanically no different than attuning a cyber-implant. Naturally the familiarization roll would need to be tweaked - maybe something like Logic + Medicine since it's a piece of anatomy, instead of the usual Logic + Armorer for something like a sword or Logic + Cybertechnology for something like a cyberspur. Or maybe an Intuition + Body roll would be more suitable for a part of one's own body? Not really sure...

And there was something else... but I'm falling asleep in front of my books and I can't put my finger on what I was going to comment or ask about. Tomorrow, I guess.

~Umi

I wouldn't allow attunement, unless you'd allow an adept to attune to his fists? However adept powers like killing hands and elemental strike (among others) would be able to be used with it.

-D

There are no rules for using more than two weapons outside shiva arms.

It is unclear. The thagomizer is wielded like a mace. A mace not in the domainat hand gets the penalty.

No, they are similar, but not the same. The description of the thagomizer even says the exact opposite. It is wielded like a mace. A mace is not a cyber-implant weapon in an unusual position.

There are no rules for that either. Make them up.

Well that kind of sucks.

Except that weilding your tail like a mace would mean holding it in your hand and swinging it, rather than the tail itself operating as a third limb, which it does.

Except that no, it's an Exotic Melee Weapon, not a Club. So no, it isn't weilded like a mace, at all, despite that poor choice of wording whose obvious intent was to suggest the manner in which the tail deals damage (id est, blunt force trauma rather than, say, constriction or something).

Also please note, attacking with a cyberspur or similar counts as Blades when it is attached to the hand or wrist, but anywhere else (elbow, knee, foot, et cetera) turns it into an Exotic Melee Weapon skill. Seems more consistent to treat the tail the same way. Because, ya know, they're functionally equivalent from a mechanics standpoint.

Well that kind of sucks.

~Umi

Duh. What I (and most likely the writers a well) meant was that is uses the same mechanics except where noted otherwise.

Sorry for not paraphrasing enough of the text, I thought you were aware of it. Here is the quote:So it behaves like a real mace except that another skill is used and the damage value is smaller than a real mace (Arsenal p. 17). There are no other benefits or restrictions.

No one disputed that.
It may seem more consistent, but unless I am missing something there is no way you can attack with two melee weapons in the same complex action, not even with shiva arms. Ambidexterity and Off-hand training only remove the penalty for using the wrong hand (the latter only in conjunction with one skill) and Two weapon Style only allows you to use Full Defense (it probably should be Full Parry) while attacking with one weapon.

By strict RAW no one can use two cyber-implant weapons in unusual places for Two Weapon Style, because the character would not "wield a second melee weapon in his off hand."(Arsenal p. 160). I know that is stupid and could easily be houseruled, but those are the rules.

That's what I get for stopping at indirect fire on p. 162.

Been browsing through a few other similar threads. Over here, people seem to agree that for Shiva Arms, you can use Two Weapon Style to defend with a single weapon, then attack with all the other arms, modified for Off-Hand and et cetera. I'd argue there's no reason a tail shouldn't work the same way.

As for comparing a Thagomizer to a Cyberspur in an exotic location, even putting aside the matter of attacking with more than one weapon, Sangre y Acero's bonus die to "Exotic Melee Weapon attacks using a cyber-implant in an unusual location" applies even if you're only attacking with that single cyber-weapon alone.

If you implant a cyber-weapon anywhere other than your hands or wrists, it counts as an Exotic Melee Weapon in an unusual location. It can be a Spur in your elbow, an Oral Slasher in your mouth, a pair of Retractable Climbing Claws in your toes, or anything else you like. So long as it's a Melee Weapon that is attached anywhere other than the hands or wrists, it counts for the bonus (and requires an Exotic Melee Weapon skill). So... why not the Thagomizer? Simply because it technically isn't cyberware, despite operating pretty much exactly like it from a mechanical standpoint?

Anyway, for anyone curious as to why I'm so interested in Thagomizers, I'm finally getting around to statting up a T'skrang changeling adept and I decided I wanted to make the equivalent of a Taildancer of the Edo School, trying to strike a balance between acrobatics, melee combat, dancing, and social skills. It's proving an interesting challenge, and not just because there aren't quite enough rules to go around.

~Umi

So... does that mean I could mount a monowhip in an unusual location and get damage dice added to it...?

The pictures of T'skrang I found don't look like they have thagomizers. I'd think they'd have balance tails or prehensile tails.

Nope, SR4 has done away with making specific weapons into cyberware.

Oh fine, rain on my parade (although really, it's just asking to have gremlins added to it if you do that.)

Dakka, this is the second time in a single thread where you're offering opinion about something you haven't adequately looked into. If you'd done more than look at a few pictures and actually read anything of substance about T'skrang you'd know that attacks with their tails are a vital and inseparable basic attribute of their race and culture. So nyaah!

You even had in-thread context to suggest this to you, as I commented on making a Taildancer, which is a Discipline that revolves entirely around the martial usage of the tail. And if I'm talking about emulating these Earthdawn details, presumably it's because I've actually looked into what they entail?

Now, maybe you're arguing that a Thagomizer isn't the appropriate way to emulate a T'skrang's tail in Shadowrun. I could see why you might think that, as a Thagomizer is associated with dermal spikes or plates on a tail, much like a stegosaurus or an ankylosaurus. But there are a few things that make it an acceptable choice. Firstly, the Earthdawn books themselves directly state that some T'skrang have dermal spikes. And secondly, all other Tail options in Shadowrun fail to allow an attack with the tail.

~Umi

Not to derail the discussion, but something to keep in mind. The Thagomizer is a prehensile tail. It does not grant an additional attack, however the rules do not say that it can not be used by itself as an attack. They state that it is wielded like a mace and uses an exotic weapon skill. A prehensile tail is capable of holding a small object but is not capable of fine manipulation. Because the Thagomizer is the actual tail, it isn't holding an item. It should be up to the GM to determine if the tail is capable of wielding itself and swinging on its own as an attack.

As a GM I would rule that it is capable of being used like an additional arm, and as such with appropriate skills and dice pool splitting can be made into a second or third attack.

-D

I...

*Facedesk*

Really?

Okay, let's clear this up once and for all.


So you have a Balance Tail. You can't control it conciously, but it gives you +2 on balance related tests. Neat.


For an extra 5 BP, you now get a Prehensile Tail. You still get +2 to balance tests, but you also get new bonuses. You can now use the tail to pick up and hold items, but you can't do anything that requires fine manipulation. So with your tail you can grab a gun, but not shoot it, or pick up a dropped wallet, but not open it up and take out a handful of change, et cetera. For purposes of lifting objects and the like, your tail has half strength rounded down, but you can hang your entire weight from it if you choose. And you specifically cannot make attacks with the tail.


For yet another extra 5 BP* (the book lists the price incorrectly, I have adjusted it above), you now get a Thagomizer. You can do everything a Prehensile Tail can, as listed above, but you can now also make attacks with the tail itself. You still can't finely manipulate objects, so no shooting guns, and while you might be able to wield a melee weapon in the tail's grasp, I'd definitely enforce the half strength rounded down factor. A Thagomizer is specifically allowed to be used as an Exotic Melee Weapon in combat. No wielding required, it's just a weapon you have built into your person, exactly like a cyber-implant such as a Spur.

Absolutely none of the above requires any sort of GM allowance whatsoever. Why is this so difficult? It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal.

~Umi

If nothing else I expect it would really throw off most opponents.
Especially multiple opponents.
Trying to attack from the rear or side, is going to bring you right in to reach of the tail without and conscious effort from the PC.
Just naturally moving around will cause the tail to swing back and forth behind him. I'd treat it like a hand to hand attack with no off hand mod (using the Exotic Melee Weapon skill).)

And it is just the perfect height to REALLY get your attention.

I have personal experience with this.
Large happy 100 pound lab mix with a tail that curves up and over.

You learn fast to be very careful when he is happy and near you. ;o
Doesn't help that both ends are just above table height.

On the plus side he is pretty easy to see coming around the couch (Que the Jaws music).

They're called "counter surfers" for a reason.

This implies you have to put it in your hand to use it as a weapon. This also clears up my earlier post about "if it can weild itself".

-D

*double rainbow facepalm, all the way across the forum*

~Umi

**Confused by the facepalming**


And…


If the tail is attacking by itself it should have a damage value (effective) of (Strength/4)+2P as the tail has a strength of (Strength/2) and the spiked mace has a damage code of (Strength/2)+2P, this gives you a final damage code of ((Strength/2)/2)+2P or (Strength/4)+2P. Thus I think debating if it can wield itself is a valid debate as it is not listed as having that damage code (to my knowledge there aten't any melee weapons that do (Strength)+xP damage). If the solid answer is "of course it can" than should the damage of a self-wielded Thagomizer be based on the tail’s strength or the overall strength? Also note that the tail does not provide an extra attack, so this also can lead to a similar question, if it’s not an extra attack, does it wield itself?

By strict reading I'd say no it can not, however that is not how I would run it. I would say that yes it can wield itself, however when doing so the effective strength of the tail is the strength used for damage calculation. This ruling falls in line with the rules about using cyber-limbs of differing strengths.

-D
P.S.
Honestly I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to be sure I fully understand RAW vs RIA.

My understanding of the rules would be that it works like a weapon when you want to consciously use it as such and the rest of the time it is just an added source of balance and something to hang off when you want to act like a monkey. When used consciously to attack then it would use the listed skill (Exotic Melee Weapon: Thagomizer) and hit with the listed damage ((Strength/2) + 2P). This seems pretty self evident.
As for Umi's original questions, well you have spent 15 BP or 30 karma on this thing so it should do something useful. I think the Exotic Weapon skill should cover the whole use of the thing and ambidexterity isn't really an issue. It isn't. You want a second attack with it? Fine, follow the rules for multiple melee attacks, splitting the lower of your two pools as shown in Arsenal but ignoring Ambidexterity. I can't see it being used to defend against attacks unless that opponent is behind you (say a 180 degree arc) (and you are aware of him of course). I wouldn't allow Sangre y Acero to help with it as the art specifically mentions cyberware and the cybernetic version of a tail is not a weapon. So I wouldn't assume that just because the Thagomizer is an exotic weapon it qualifies for this martial art.

Hrmmm...

I guess for simplicity it might be better to assume that the tail wields itself and does S/2+2P.That keeps everything simple even if not internally consistent.

-D

Your conclusion is wrong. You do not gain an extra attack. You can however attack with the tail just as you can with any other limb. Remember an attack roll is not one punch/kick involving only one limb but a series of attacks and defenses involving the whole body. An attack with a tail however has no mechanical benefits over a normal attack.

True, but the thagomizer still does not grant an extra attack in any given Action Phase. Just like a mace you can use it instead of an unarmed attack or combined with another armed attack for two attacks. There is no rule that allows you to use more than two attacks, besides shiva arms.

The houseruling is in allowing the thagomizer the benefits of being a cyberweapon even though it is not a cyberweapon. A hermetic earth elemental is mechanically identical to a shamanic earth spirit. Still abilities that affect (earth) elementals would not affect the shamanic spirit and vice versa.

Wields itself? It doesn't wield itself. You swing it around using some sort of hip gyrating motion (I imagine) much like you swing your arms to punch rather than having your fists wield themselves. It isn't a weapon you pick up or anything. It's a tail attached to the bottom of your spine. It doesn't have a mind of its own to consciously choose to attack.

Edit: And Dakka Dakka beat me to it. Darn you *shakes fist*.

I'm just... I don't even know where to begin with DMiller, so I'm not even gonna try for now. Maybe tomorrow. Maybe never. My poor head.

Mantis, would you allow any martial art to benefit it? Because it's a pretty darn unusual sort of thing to attack someone with a tail, I'll admit.

I figured, however, that Sangre y Acero was the best fit, for a couple of reasons. First, SyA isn't necessarily just cyberweapon fighting. It's described as pit fighting in which non-cybered combatants tend not to live long, but that clearly suggests that at least some non-cybered fighters do take part. Second, there is the emphasis (both in fluff and crunch) on melee fighting with cyberweapons in nonstandard locations, and that is what I think is important.

Remember, originally, the only way to have ANY weapon in an unusual location was for it to be cyberware, because normal metahumans just don't have weapons built into themselves, now do they? And since (if I recall correctly) Arsenal was released before Runner's Companion, the rules therein fail to reflect the later possibility of weapons in unusual locations that are technically not cyberware. There weren't any such weapons to represent in the rules at the time SyA was written up, and so it doesn't address them.

But maybe some hypothetical comparisons might help clarify my point from a few other angles.

You can stick a Spur anywhere - in your ankle, in your knee, in your elbow, in your crotch, in the small of your back, in the base of your neck... you can even have a pair of Projectile Spurs that shoot out from your nipples for crying out loud. So long as they aren't in your hands or wrists, they use the Exotic Melee Weapon skill instead of blades. And likewise, so long as they aren't in your hands or wrists, they also receive the +1 die bonus from SyA. And please note, if you do stick a spur in your hands or wrists, and attack with it, you do not get the bonus, because it's not in an unusual location.

So let's say you decide, for whatever reason, to stick a Spur on your tailbone, such that the blade extends from your lower back exactly as if it were a tail. There is absolutely nothing in the rules stopping you from doing this. If you have SyA, you can get a bonus die from attacking with this tailbone spur. (You can also defend with it, no problem whatsoever.)

Now, compare to the Thagomizer. Same unusual location, same Exotic Melee Weapon skill usage, mechanically identical. You're saying that just because one is a metal blade implanted into your tailbone, and the other is a magically-induced biological outgrowth of your own body, that the Sangre y Acero martial art will benefit one, but not the other? That attacking with a retractable butt spur makes perfect sense as an extension of the martial art, but attacking with a 2-3 foot prehensile armor plated tail does not? That somehow the mystical Spirit of Sangre y Acero is able to tell the difference between a sharpened hunk of stainless steel or titanium and living flesh and bone, and that alone is the determining factor regarding how well you are, or are not, able to attack with either weapon? Doesn't that strike you as just a little absurd and pedantic?

Let's look at another, similar cyberweapon: Implanted Fangs. They're in an unusual location, and they use the Exotic Melee Weapon, so I think you'd agree they benefit from the Sangre y Acero bonus? But then compare them to the biological equivalent, the metagenetic Fangs quality, availabe to Changelings and Hobgoblins. For some inexplicable reason, biological fangs don't use the Exotic Melee Weapon skill, but instead use the Unarmed Combat skill. But they're still Fangs, for crying out loud! They're still used in EXACTLY the same way as the cyber variant! They're the exact same physical structure, in the exact same part of the body, and I don't care what anyone says, there is no sane reason why biting someone with cyberfangs should earn an extra die and biting someone with biological fangs should not! You cannot possibly justify it by saying Sangre y Acero only applies to techniques which employ cyberware, because there is no substantial difference in technique (or anything else for that matter) between attacking with the one set of fangs and attacking with the other.

And don't even start on the whole "but biological fangs aren't an Exotic Melee Weapon" argument, because they damn well should be! They're both FANGS, for Pete's Sake! You bite things with them! One being made out of metal and the other being made out of bone affects nothing (except the damage codes, which actually makes sense)! The fact that they differ in the skills used to attack with them is not evidence that this was done intentionally, but rather just the opposite. It's abundantly clear that one or the other ruling is in error, perhaps having been written without adequate cross referencing and attention to maintaining logical consistancies across systems.

But let's simplify the comparison even further. Imagine, if you will, a hypothetical cyberware equivalent to the Thagomizer. Say it was an advancement of the Balance Tail, and was functionally equivalent to the Thagomizer. Would you honestly turn around and say, "Oh yes, clearly that gets the bonus die from Sangre y Acero!" based solely and entirely upon the fact that it's an implanted piece of cyberware instead of a biological tail?

~Umi

Thank you guys however, my question still stands. Would the Thagomizer do (Base Strength/4)+2P or (Base Strength/2)+2P?



The Thagomizer has a strength of (Base Strength/2) (rules quote from above). This would seem to say that the actual damage inflicted should effectively be (Strength/4)+2P.

-D

Edit: corrected the quote tag, sorry I don't have SR4a in PDF.

Umidori,

You make a very good point about SyA. I think I would allow it, but that's just me.

-D

Umi, in the case of the Thagomizer, my reasoning behind not allowing SyA to help it is based on having enough people around to develop the art in that direction. I don't see the thagomizer being common enough to develop an art around. Spurs and such can be added to anyone who wants to get them and are therefore common enough to develop an art. If your hypothetical cybernetic version of the thagomizer existed then I would allow both it and the biological one to benefit from SyA. Like I said, my argument against it is based on the relative scarcity of people with the thing to allow the development of an art around it.
You can, of course just create a martial art based on it if you like. And also I said I wouldn't allow it in my game but you can allow whatever you like in your games. And yeah, I agree there seems (hah!) to be some discrepancy between rules for things like fangs.

DMiller the Thagomizer is not a cyber weapon and it is the only 'limb' involved in using it. It's a tail. On your butt. With nothing else involved. It has it's own damage code built into it. You use that damage code when you deal damage with it.

You seem to be forgetting that other implanted weapons do not qualify for the SyA benefit either. The quills (Augmentation p. 66) are not cyberweapons either so they do not get the +1 die. It seems that such weapons simply are not part part of the curriculum. While this may seem weird, I'm sure you can find stuff that should be augmented in any of the other martial arts styles but is not included in the four benefits each gets.

I agree it does not make much sense, but those are the rules. To support the different treatment of both types of fangs, you could argue that the implanted ones simply do not fit that well and the character is not as used to them as inherent ones.

Yes, from a RAW stand point. It does not make much sense but could be justified just as the fangs above, or you could houserule it.

You're all reading way too much into the word "wield". While wield means to "use weapon in hand" it seems likely that the author just used it incorrectly and referred to "using the tail as a weapon". In this case, you'd exert limited control over the Thagomizer, swinging your legs and body combined with the tail musculature to inflict maximum damage. I know RAW seems clad in iron to some people, but I'm pretty certain this interpretation makes more sense.

On the thaugmatizer:

If you can find "truth about killer dinosaurs velociraptor vs ankylosaurus" from the BBC (I found part of it in french on YouTube) they built an aluminum model of the ankylosaurus' tail.

With basically no speed, but with high mass the thing totally ruins small turkeys. Point is, you don't need a lot of strength to hurt something and break bones.

Since martial arts involves training yourself to make the most of what you have, I'd that you could certainly use the Thagomizer with marital arts as long as you have had time enough to train with it.
you certainly are always going to have it with you what every you are doing.

You would learn katas that could whip the tail around to pick up damage and cover your flanks and rear. Run past someone and whip the tail around at belt height and they will have more things to worry about then you.

Certainly off hand would not apply. It is not like swinging the tail is fine manipulation.

And considering that the tail could support your own weight, let along how much speed you can pick up by whipping it around,, I str/2 +2 damage for the Thagomizer as more than fair.