Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: True Dragon PC
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
O'Ryan
First, some back story:
Everyone in my group alternates between playing and running the game. Basically once a mission is finished, someone goes "Alright, I have a cool idea!" and we swap DMs.
That said, during my next mission there's the option of the players acquiring a very young dragon as a contact. Upon statting them out using the April Fools joke rules for true dragons, I discovered just how non broken he would be - my decker, for instance, could punch him to death while simultaneously outperforming the dragon in every other way as well just to be a jerk. As such, I thought he might make an interesting character.

Do any of the learned minds at Dumpshock see any issues with this, or have great ideas to really bring personality to life? As it stands it's an unnamed 14 year old western dragon. Thank you in advance!

Mantis
As an NPC I would have no issues with this.
As a PC, I'd say no. A bunch of questions get raised as a PC such as: Why is this dragon away from his dragon peers and elders and hanging out where nasty things can get at him? Why haven't nasty things already gotten him? Why would anyone want to hang out with a 14 year old, dragon or no? I remember me at 14 and I'm pretty sure a bunch of hardened shadowrunners would tell me take a hike. In the dragon's case, I see him getting used and abused as he would lack the life experience to know he was being used and abused, at least the first few times.
Now for actual help, think of a 14 year old, add in the power of a dragon, an alien or at least non-human intelligence and then go nuts. Bursts of anger for no reason? Sure! Awkward social graces? A must! General ignorance about a great many things? Yup. Did he go to school at all? Doubtful, so he really will be more of an illiterate.
At least that is where I would take it. Illiterate 14 year old with too much power, too little control and a need to prove he is almost an adult, whether he really is or not. I imagine the other players will at first think he's cool and then come to hate him, and then finally trying to find a way to use and/or abuse the power he represents.
Oehler the Black
Someone on a lark built a rather competent build around the April Fool's joke, I can't search-fu up specifics but it involved maxing out negative qualities (amnesia), skating, and a drake boyfriend.
DamHawke
Pre-pubescent, rather squishy dragon NPC with a thirst to prove himself.

Would his metahuman form be 14 years old too? biggrin.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (O'Ryan @ Jan 30 2013, 01:30 AM) *
First, some back story:
Everyone in my group alternates between playing and running the game. Basically once a mission is finished, someone goes "Alright, I have a cool idea!" and we swap DMs.
That said, during my next mission there's the option of the players acquiring a very young dragon as a contact. Upon statting them out using the April Fools joke rules for true dragons, I discovered just how non broken he would be - my decker, for instance, could punch him to death while simultaneously outperforming the dragon in every other way as well just to be a jerk. As such, I thought he might make an interesting character.

Do any of the learned minds at Dumpshock see any issues with this, or have great ideas to really bring personality to life? As it stands it's an unnamed 14 year old western dragon. Thank you in advance!


Well, figure out the answers the following questions.

1: Who is he/she. This is important.
2: How did she get hatched? If there was a Great Dragon in the mix, as there's wont to be, who is it? If she was hatched by someone/something other than a great dragon, then who, and why?
2a: If there is a GD in the mix, you're probably going to need to take him/her as a maxxed Connections contact, unless this callow young dragon has turned his back on his hatcher. If so, how did he get away with doing so alive? And why hasn't another GD claimed him yet?
2b: If there isn't another GD in the mix, how did she come to be, without getting the attention of a GD?
3: Why is he in the Shadows? Dragons are really, really obvious creatures. It's like trying to be a Formoian with Shiva Arms and fluorescent red skin. There's not many like you in the world at all, so why are you in the Shadows?
4: Why is a team of Runners letting her hang with them? "Never, ever deal with a Dragon" is right there in rule #1. Most would consider Running with a Dragon to constitute dealing with one.
5: What are his goals? Does he have an endgame plan for getting out of the Shadows, or is he acting on teenaged headstrong and hormones?


Once you've got those out of the way, you need to think about what you bring to the table. As a Dragon, you're a magician, of course. You're also kind of screwed in that you can't have a normal tradition, you have to subscribe to the Draconic tradition - which means that any time you want to learn something, you have to break Rule #1 of Running. You automatically put the group in the big leagues, which probably draws the kind of attention they probably don't want unless they're the kind of Runners who have Damian Knight owing them the kind of favor he doesn't dare refuse to pay off. On the other hand, you're fucking huge and obvious, which is more of a liability in Shadowrun than not. You're so big that breaking out the anti-tank weapons is not remotely an unreasonable response to you showing up, and you probably can't go full-form in most office spaces. When you do, you're almost guaranteed to draw significant media attention, which is like, anathema to 'Runners who don't work in L.A.. On the other hand, it also makes you uniquely suited to deal with a lot of large and tough monsters; you can shred Spirits in combat with your claws, and you can lift Bubba-sized cybertrolls into the air and divebomb them into the pavement for massive damage. You can probably dig or tunnel through substances that most Runners wouldn't think of as being something they could go through in an emergency, most likely being capable of tearing down all but heavily reinforced walls with sheer brute strength.

So basically, you're big, obvious and loud, but when you do decide to go full form, as long as you can avoid the assault cannon and gauss rifle fire, you're a gamebreaker in a fight.

O'Ryan
QUOTE (Mantis @ Jan 29 2013, 10:45 PM) *
At least that is where I would take it. Illiterate 14 year old with too much power, too little control and a need to prove he is almost an adult, whether he really is or not. I imagine the other players will at first think he's cool and then come to hate him, and then finally trying to find a way to use and/or abuse the power he represents.


Those are some really good points, thank you! He's absolutely going to have some social issues... less "me at 14" and more dragon-related issues.. as a default they love shiny things, and this one hasn't developed the self control to reign that in. There should be issues, certainly, but I certainly don't want him to get annoying. Would a little more age help? The RAW (even if the whole thing was a joke) are for "young adults" - he could easily go 17-19 without really changing anything.
As for the being taken advantage of, I'm counting on it! But like I said, he's very under-optimized with only one rank in any non-knowledge skill; the taking advantage of him isn't going to lead to anything a 400BP character couldn't already do. (Except awesome, awesome flying.) That said, even if it takes a bit of work what Runner wouldn't like having a dragon in their pocket down the line?
As for choosing the running life over spending time with other dragons... I'm not solid on that yet, but I know it's doable. One of the very first Shadowrun Novels even has a dragon runner as a main character... one of the Sam Verner books IIRC. I'm thinking he was finding existing life (Nothing but watching BBC and learning about corporate politics) too dull and jumps on the chance for excitement. That could easily go with the 17 year old "rebellious phase" even if dragon development times aren't really covered.
Do you think any of that would help?

QUOTE (Oehler the Black @ Jan 29 2013, 11:01 PM) *
Someone on a lark built a rather competent build around the April Fool's joke, I can't search-fu up specifics but it involved maxing out negative qualities (amnesia), skating, and a drake boyfriend.


You pretty much have to max negative qualities, or else you're trying to build a ~50 BP character after attributes! I do find the idea of a wyrm doing kickflips hilarious enough to work into the concept though.


QUOTE (DamHawke @ Jan 29 2013, 11:09 PM) *
Pre-pubescent, rather squishy dragon NPC with a thirst to prove himself.

Would his metahuman form be 14 years old too? biggrin.gif


I was leaning towards yes! The spell he took is restricted in "Shape Change - Ork," but I didn't further restrict it to age or gender. So he probably has his preferred* metahuman form, but is capable of anything from 10-50.
*Preferred in the same way you might prefer ants to cockroaches.

QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Jan 29 2013, 11:13 PM) *
Well, figure out the answers the following questions.

-snip-


1)The son to a very minor member to the House of Lords in London - the run revolves around assassinating his very dickish father.
2)I was thinking they were the biological offspring to another non-great Dragon who has aspirations but hasn't done much important yet.
2c) As I understand it Celedyr, the nearest GD, is fairly absentee but present enough to keep Lofwyr from mucking with things.
3) Hormones! Adventure, adrenaline, unknowing armed escorts to collect reagents, retinue for fanfare....
4) pretty much relies on the runners thinking of taking advantage of him, either immediately or in the future. There's a very strong possibility that due to the mission they just don't gamble and blow him away/up - I'd be OK with that, but I want to plan for the possibility of continued existence.
5) Entirely hormones. If he gets the opportunity to settle down and run a country/corp/country club once he's got some adventure under his belt, he will.
Mantis
Yeah. I'd make him a few years older, 17-18 should be enough to get past the horror that is early adolescence yet still be naive enough to be taken advantage of. Keep the general ignorance of no formal education or at least not a formal meta-human education in mind as that will add to the naivety.
I remember the dragon you are speaking of in the novel but he was much older than what you are planning. I'd go with the rebellious teen as the reason to be in the shadows.
Shadowdragon brings up many good points that I hinted at in my first post though. Why haven't great dragons or something else as powerful snatched him up? Do dragons have a draconic version of the Amish Rumspringer (sp?) perhaps? So every little dragon gets to go out and explore the world a bit before being roped back into the draconic lifestyle of plots within plots within plots spanning centuries just so they can get that coveted bottle of wine (or whatever it was that caught their fancy).
Overall there are many problems with this guy but you can make him interesting (what, he wasn't interesting already being a dragon? nyahnyah.gif ) but to make him live you need to answer those sorts of questions.
O'Ryan
QUOTE (Mantis @ Jan 29 2013, 11:46 PM) *
Yeah. I'd make him a few years older, 17-18 should be enough to get past the horror that is early adolescence yet still be naive enough to be taken advantage of. Keep the general ignorance of no formal education or at least not a formal meta-human education in mind as that will add to the naivety.
I remember the dragon you are speaking of in the novel but he was much older than what you are planning. I'd go with the rebellious teen as the reason to be in the shadows.
Shadowdragon brings up many good points that I hinted at in my first post though. Why haven't great dragons or something else as powerful snatched him up? Do dragons have a draconic version of the Amish Rumspringer (sp?) perhaps? So every little dragon gets to go out and explore the world a bit before being roped back into the draconic lifestyle of plots within plots within plots spanning centuries just so they can get that coveted bottle of wine (or whatever it was that caught their fancy).
Overall there are many problems with this guy but you can make him interesting (what, he wasn't interesting already being a dragon? nyahnyah.gif ) but to make him live you need to answer those sorts of questions.



I LOVE the rumspringer idea. That is just... wow. "Why are you robbing/murdering/pillaging?" "I'm on walk-about!"

So, then. We have a 17 year old western dragon, sole (mentioned) offspring of the BBG whom everybody, offspring included, hates. Our fearless runners show up, wreck the place, pose for photos - offspring, assuming they're not taxidermy'd, asks to come along and join them in exchange for help covering things up.
Runners return to Denver, and the career of a very impulsive, powerful (but unskilled) runner who just wants to see the world they hope to one day rule starts off. There's also the possible motivation of searching for a lair.

During the runs he'll start as a face - he's charming enough and not at all worried about using his species as an implied endorsement/threat if he doesn't think it'll piss off Ghostwalker, until his magical/martial skills are developed enough to contribute beyond astral perception and wooing people with kick flips...
-
As far as Great Dragon interest, I think the reason they haven't snatched up my semi-heroic lizard is the Aztlan-Amazonia conflict. With Sirrurg rising his huge army of draco-forms to crush Cali and Hestaby threatening to go to the UN in the first ever inter-dragon (public) conflict, a single juvenile dragon probably doesn't rate high on the list until he makes a name for himself.
Mantis
QUOTE (O'Ryan @ Jan 30 2013, 12:36 AM) *
I LOVE the rumspringer idea. That is just... wow. "Why are you robbing/murdering/pillaging?" "I'm on walk-about!"


Glad you like it. What you have now can work though as a face I see him acting more as a bully than a suave smooth talker. 'Hey, I'm a big, bad dragon so you better do what I say.' I can also see him making demands the other, older characters might not or forgetting to ask about things, at least at first, that they wouldn't. This is all due to inexperience of course. '500 for the job? Oh boy! Sure thing Mr. J. I've never had that much money before! er, um, I mean yes, that is adequate compensation for the task.'
When Sirrug actually started gathering his draconic minions isn't entirely clear so it leaves time for this little guy to slip under the radar. And if you need to pull him out of the game without killing him, well one side or the other of the draconic battle can just come forward and say 'Hey! Walk-about is over. Time to pick a side.'
Have fun with it. It could certainly put another spin on why you never deal with a (young) dragon.
sk8bcn
Some hints tells dragons turns into wyvern at adolescence biggrin.gif
bannockburn
Okay ... Making an April Fool's joke into a real character is certainly creative and I've seen some really good suggestions in this thread.

To answer this 'canonically':
My source is the _really good_ ED Dragons sourcebook, as it has a big chapter about the life cycle of dragons.
Eggs are generally cared for by great dragons, and the hatchlings will have the form of the foster parent instead of the biological parent. So, if a western dragon gave her eggs to Lung to take care of, her hatchlings would become eastern dragons. Asking a great dragon to take care of eggs is also a bit like a job application, the female needs to persuade the great dragon of her and her offspring's future qualities. After the eggs are placed in the foster parent's care, the biological parent will most likely never see them again. For all intents and purposes, the great dragon is father or mother to the eggs under his care. It's even hinted that they cannot even hatch without a great dragon nurturing them.
It is also the most sacred duty for all dragonkind (not surprisingly, since they are very few and it's very similar in human culture, too).
Eggs grow during incubation from around 1 foot size to about 4 feet height just before hatching. New born dragons are between 2 and 4m long, with legs and wings (no forelimbs in case of western dragons!), with a barbed tail. Notice the similarity to a wyvern yet? wink.gif
Anyways, during the incubation, which can take about a century, the dragon actually teaches the hatchlings via dragonspeech. This is not yet formally education, but rather low level telepathy to make the hatchlings receptive to the one they receive after hatching. They are being told who their guardian is just after emerging from the egg, at which point the formal relationship begins.
They learn basics like flying, hunting and surviving rather fast in their first years and learn to use their magic at around 20 years. At ~50 years they learn about draconic history as well as the other people living in the world around them. Obviously, this takes place in rather secluded places and may not be as viable in the sixth world, where knowledge is even more power than in a sparsely populated 4th world. They usually keep in a 4 day walking radius (I'd say around 80-120km) around the lair where they hatched but are intensely watched by their guardian. Outsiders are discouraged to enter such areas with measures ranging from subtle to extreme, and the guardian is always nearby when they fly out to hunt (seems unlikely in the sixth world, but maybe there hasn't been a new hatching yet. The greats all seem rather preoccupied with their schemes).
So, pertaining to the teenager idea: Hatchlings usually do not experience raging hormones ... that is, until they're about 200 years old.
Which is when nothing special at all happens. At least that's what the dragons say.
In truth it is strongly hinted that they become almost feral during the next hundred years or so, and that those are what people call wyverns (at least in the case of western dragons). They are vicious hunters, they grow fast and almost to their full size during that period and they are smart and deadly. However, they are not very cunning and about 2/3 of all dragons die during that phase of their life. Even their guardians and other dragons avoid them during that time, as they still tend to flock together despite being territorial. I guess they're staying together with the other hatchlings from their clutch.
They are also unable to use their magic during that period (hormones really suck, huh?)
When they grow out of it, they physically enter astral space and weave a magic cocoon and their body changes to its final form over the course of 5-10 years. It's not said specifically, but I reckon that all dragons share the same hatchling form until this phase. When they emerge from the cocoon, they are about 300 years old +100 years of being in an egg, and take their own name, which is the point where they introduce themselves to draconic society and claim their lair and can start procreating. They usually remain in good contact with their guardian, but there are no lingering debts from being brought up. If they come up it's over the course of their adult lives and they may become a sort of vassal to a great (or just an older) dragon, e.g. in exchange for further teaching, or because they want to live in an area claimed by another dragon (for various reasons)

tl;dr version:
Dragon teenagers are a bit older than 14, they are vicious monsters that will sting you to death and the youngest western dragon is a full blown adult who is several centuries old and in full command of his powers (such as they may be).
But that would be, in the context of your campaign, BORING biggrin.gif
Hatchlings on the other hand are rather communicative, while certainly not unschooled. They would also be highly sought after if they go missing, because ... well, with a dozen eggs taking a hundred years to hatch (and some of those even die unhatched) and a further two thirds dying in adolescence ... Let's just say, dragon population is not the most stable.
hermit
Urgh, these rules. Dragons do not work that way.

An adult common-form dragon is at least 50 years old, and given the youth of the Awakened World, is probably among the first ever to reach adulthood in this age. Dragon "teenagers" are Wyverns, and those are so uncontrollable they're positively feral.
sk8bcn
If dragons hibernated (in an astral cocoon or elsewhere) that young dragon probably seen the 4th world too (if we imagine he was in a stasis during 5th world)
Mantis
Talk about taking all the fun out it. nyahnyah.gif The mention of wyverns triggered my memory of the shadowtalk entry on them in Patterson's Guide to Paranormal Animals about them being young dragons. I've never read Dragon's of the Sixth World and the Earth Dawn game mechanics drove me away from that game before I ever got into such interesting topics as draconic reproduction. Thanks for the background though. Guess O'Ryan can just have his campaign go a little off canon to tell an interesting story and ignore all that canon info on the dragon life cycle.
Or he could make his 'dragon' a free spirit or drake having a bit of fun at the gullible meta-human's expense (illusion, mutable form, mask spell, whatever works). He could still tell the same sort of story on the surface with a bit of added fun that it is all done to amuse the 'dragon'.
Oh yeah, and I guess dragons do go on rumspringa or walk-about or what ever you want to call. It is just terrifying and full of teeth and claws and nasty stingers and lasts a hundred years rather than that first taste of forbidden beer or TV.
bannockburn
Oh, I never said "Don't do it." The ideas all sound like fun smile.gif
And canon is only useful if you like it ... if not, change it, or create exceptions ^^
Halinn
Wouldn't the simple way to be a young dragon then be to have the backstory be that s/he went into that magic cocoon just around the time the fourth world ended, and just slept through the fifth, then recently awakened to a strange new time?
bannockburn
Well, that still makes it a giant lizard, not something as (in comparison) inconspicuous as a drake in their true form. But it would give of course a reason for a rather 'innocent' outlook at this new world. However, we're still talking about a lizard who's on average twice as smart as the average human and not some dumb kid ^^

But I thought of something different: Yes, there have been dragon runners. Tessien was the feathered serpent in the Verner trilogy by Charette and in canon material there is Perianwyr who worked as a freelance assassin in earlier days and multiple adventures.

Edit: Missed a word there ^^
Starmage21
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 30 2013, 10:23 AM) *
Well, that still makes it a giant lizard, not something as (in comparison) a drake in their true form. But it would give of course a reason for a rather 'innocent' outlook at this new world. However, we're still talking about a lizard who's on average twice as smart as the average human and not some dumb kid ^^

But I thought of something different: Yes, there have been dragon runners. Tessien was the feathered serpent in the Verner trilogy by Charette and in canon material there is Perianwyr who worked as a freelance assassin in earlier days and multiple adventures.


Even our own child geniuses have come into hormonal issues.
That said, if you want your dragon PC to be believable within the canon of Shadowrun, it has to be a fresh adult hatching from his astral cocoon because he went into stasis during the 5th world. He's going to be scary smart, but relatively uneducated in regards to the 6th world, So he may look upon the world with a childish innocence. Dragon runners have happened before as Bannockburn stated, and theyre by no means broken from a game system standpoint.

Running seems to be a great way to build up your underworld contacts, even if it is a bit dangerous.
Draco18s
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 30 2013, 06:58 AM) *
Dragon "teenagers" are Wyverns, and those are so uncontrollable they're positively feral.


Wait a sec.

You're telling me that in the sixth world dragons suddenly grow a pair of balls forelegs when they hit puberty?

Sorry, but anatomy doesn't work that way.
bannockburn
No. Actually, they might grow a pair of forelimbs and lose their stinging tail, when they're to become western dragons. Otherwise they become elongated, lose wings and tail and grow forelimbs and a beard, when eastern. Or they sprout feathers and loose the tail and even their legs. wink.gif
It's not anatomy, it's an astral cocoon and therefore *waves with fingers* maaaaagic ^^

And not only in the sixth world.
Not if you ask the dragons, of course ^^
O'Ryan
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 30 2013, 09:02 AM) *
It's not anatomy, it's an astral cocoon and therefore *waves with fingers* maaaaagic ^^


Ha!


Thanks everyone for the replies! I'm glad to see my faith in Dumpshock was well founded. biggrin.gif
I d want to keep it as canonically accurate as possible... with multiple GMs, it makes things a lot easier if everyone has access to the same information regarding how the world works. From what I'm seeing though, it shouldn't be too difficult to make work. I'm not overly attached to the "17 years old" bit, it was mostly a justification for the dragon being weak enough to be a PC. If we make him 300 and a "fresh" hatch it's much the same - he has all the knowledge skills from the psychic teaching but is still naive in the way the world actually works / doesn't have the actual practice claw-fighting, if especially he ended up going into stasis right as he was figuring things out.

I can try to wriggle the BP around to make Celedyr a contact to represent his earlier years, though I'll probably hand wave that part - "Yeah he knew him but they really don't get along now because of The Noodle Incident..."


So that solves all THAT, right? But, now we have the issue of if he was trained by a GD and not this schmuck Lord, what's he doing at his house? "I was just visiting to steal his beer... hey you guys like fun lemme join you" feels... off to me in a way I can't really articulate. I know now why the dragon is running: to build up real world experience, search for a lair, and develop contacts for when he makes his play into the big leagues. But, I still need to introduce him to the party in such a way that they think they can manipulate him without much consequence.

hermit
QUOTE
Sorry, but anatomy doesn't work that way.

It's as ridiculous as to expect tadpoles to grow into frogs. Tadpoles don't even have one paur of legs, let alone two, and a tail, and look like oversized sperm that eat algae. Frogs look like frogs and eat Insects. Biology doesn't work that way. wink.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 30 2013, 02:25 PM) *
It's as ridiculous as to expect tadpoles to grow into frogs. Tadpoles don't even have one paur of legs, let alone two, and a tail, and look like oversized sperm that eat algae. Frogs look like frogs and eat Insects. Biology doesn't work that way. wink.gif


They're also kind of a different classification. There aren't any larger animals that do it (without sever radiation).
bannockburn
No, really. It's pure magic. There is no biological explanation AT ALL.
hermit
QUOTE
They're also kind of a different classification. There aren't any larger animals that do it (without sever radiation).

You'd be surprised about the life cycle of some angler fish. Besides, dragons classify as reptiles with bird-like characteristics, somwhat like, but not exactly like, dinosaurs, so they're not easily compared with any recent animals.

Oh yeah, and as Mannockburn says: MAGIC!

Lionhearted
QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jan 30 2013, 03:23 PM) *
Well, that still makes it a giant lizard

Dragons are not lizards!
If I hadn't reread the dragon chapter in running wild I would have seriously made a big ol' rant a about how, they first establish dinosaurs as their closest relative and then compare them to komodos (a lizard) Which they don't btw, I read it wrong the first time around.
Point is that if dragons are related to dinosaurs, while they would be reptiles they most certainly wouldn't be lizards.
Which tbh their physiology supports, they don't have the characteristics of lizards, but definitely of dinosaurs... and as their closest living relatives are birds, not lizards... Feathered serpents suddenly make sense.

Draco... First of all. It's magic! second of all, size is not a factor in ability to metamorphosis, that the species that are capable of it are rather small has to do with other traits, like ineffecient methods of processing oxygen...
and you must have been asleep since the fourth age if you think radiation can do that nyahnyah.gif

bannockburn
I was being colloquial wink.gif
Wizworm, if you like it better nyahnyah.gif
Lionhearted
I know, I just had a pent up rant smile.gif
Dolanar
As far as why the Dragon would be at the Lord's home:

The Lord happened upon the dragon very shortly after its resurfacing, & after the Dragon had a few unpleasant run ins. The Lord suddenly had the wonderful idea to try to get the dragon on his side & offered the Dragon a safe place to hide & learn about the world, This is where the runner's come in.

The runner's uncover a plot by the lord to cross the dragon & show their proof to the dragon. This is where the dragon can suggest he has a lot to learn about this new world & suggest that the best place to learn it is in the lowest place possible, running the shadows.
Darksong
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Jan 30 2013, 01:51 PM) *
Point is that if dragons are related to dinosaurs, while they would be reptiles they most certainly wouldn't be lizards.

not necessarily, dinosaurs aren't reptiles
Draco18s
QUOTE (hermit @ Jan 30 2013, 02:48 PM) *
Besides, dragons classify as reptiles with bird-like characteristics, somwhat like, but not exactly like, dinosaurs, so they're not easily compared with any recent animals.


Depends on the dragon. I've seen some mammalian ones (fur, milk, live birth, the whole nine yards*).

*Interesting phrase that one, by the way. Anyone care to take a stab at where it originated?
Lionhearted
QUOTE (Darksong @ Jan 30 2013, 11:30 PM) *
not necessarily, dinosaurs aren't reptiles

They are, reptiles with weird hip bones in fact
hermit
QUOTE
not necessarily, dinosaurs aren't reptiles

Let's just say this is up for debate and truer for some dinosaurs and less true for others. "Dinosaurs" basically sums up all megafauna of 160 mil years. They're probably three or four Classes, and it'd probably be a lot easier to decide if we'd know more than very incomplete skeletons.
Darksong
well, paraphyetically they are, but that's not always how people use or understand the term "reptile"
Lionhearted
People don't normally use animal to refer to humans, doesn't make it less so.
Darksong
that's a different taxonomic issue

there's a distinction between the class reptilia and the paraphyletic group of "reptiles", but that's neither here nor there

the important point is that you were correct in stating that dinosaurs are "related" to reptiles in as much as paraphyly denotes relation
Lionhearted
English fondness of latin curriculum throws me off sometimes, I get you now.
O'Ryan
Thanks for all the help, everyone! ...even the discussion of lizard versus dinosaur, even though we all know it's the very scientific "wizworm draconis" species. wink.gif

I'll be playing him this Saturday, and will let everyone know how he works out!
Starmage21
The best thing your massive size is good for is participating in vehicle combat. Smash some cars! biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Hey, I am curious... Where can I get a copy of the April Fools Dragon Rules?
Can't seem to find them.
Starmage21
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 1 2013, 01:20 PM) *
Hey, I am curious... Where can I get a copy of the April Fools Dragon Rules?
Can't seem to find them.

http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/download/p...ers_preview.pdf
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Feb 1 2013, 11:11 AM) *


Thanks... smile.gif
O'Ryan
QUOTE (Starmage21 @ Feb 1 2013, 06:31 AM) *
The best thing your massive size is good for is participating in vehicle combat. Smash some cars! biggrin.gif



The downside is all cars outpace dragons easily! Unless they're on a vespa, even if you roll well on "flight" (the dragon version of the running skill), there's no way to keep up if they reach highway speeds.

One of the DMs did a quick mission for him so I could have some personality developed and see how he worked, and I found the single best thing in almost every situation was the "Compulsion" power. Bike gang driving way? Slam on that front brake! Someone shooting at you? Drop the gun!

But yeah, if you can CATCH the car there's very few that'll stand up to 35+ strength!

PS: Trogdyr is now roaming Denver. wink.gif
Lionhearted
I'm not sure whether Doll maker approve of you burninating the city streets...
Mantis
I'm sure he'll make his displeasure known soon enough. In a pointed way. smile.gif
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (O'Ryan @ Feb 1 2013, 04:07 PM) *
The downside is all cars outpace dragons easily! Unless they're on a vespa, even if you roll well on "flight" (the dragon version of the running skill), there's no way to keep up if they reach highway speeds.


You live in the sixth world. Improvise. If getting a Spirit to Movement you is troublesome, then strap a couple of stonking great jet engines to your rump.
Athanatos
Well, for the life-cycle of dragons it does say that they're incubating eggs for 50-100 years, then 50-100 years as young hatchlings/actually intelligent spell casting wyverns. This is followed by Draconic Puberty that makes them near mindless non-spellcasting rage cases, that are much larger than when they first hatched. Then they recover just in time to enter astral cocoons, generally in the protective area of the Great Dragon that reared them. They are smaller relatively, but still adult stage dragons of their dracoform Type. There were wyverns mentioned as of First Edition implying that they were already at the adolescence stage, atleast a portion of them, those that were before that stage would've been hidden by the great dragon that was rearing them, and would've probably been assured that their slayers wouldn't make it back to talk about what they saw lol. biggrin.gif

For there to be End stage Wyverns around from the beginning means that your True Dragon character could easily be amongst the first to emerge from an astral cocoon, even if it entered relatively recently in the timeline. Also it implies that Eliohan was one such, and he's cannon lol. So was the one that Ehran is shown disecting, but I can't recall which of the many books that was lol. One can also use the fact that Dragons Great and Non-Great alike keep the facts about their life-cycle pretty well disguised(mostly) so a number of the adult dragons shown could fit the same category. As for your character idea, The EarthDawn Dragon book, which is admitted as being connected, by most anyway, had a number of named adults that started the same way.

I say if you can get approval and play it well, go for it! I really like the idea, I had asked a similar question on Dumpshock before.
Draco18s
QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685 @ Feb 2 2013, 12:40 PM) *
You live in the sixth world. Improvise. If getting a Spirit to Movement you is troublesome, then strap a couple of stonking great jet engines to your rump.


http://www.8manga.com/character/4442.html ;P
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012