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CanRay
Mercs, love 'em, hate 'em, stick 'em in a stew, they're the folks on the dirty end of the stick for the jobs that are too big for a Shadowrunner crew!

Now available!
Grinder
For easier reference:

QUOTE
Description:
Cynical, Sold-out, and Skilled

Hired guns. People without a country who know no loyalty. Opportunists, bottom-feeders, scavengers, vultures. Soldiers without a soul who will go to the worst hells on Earth and do just about anything for a buck.

That’s how they talk about mercenaries. But that’s how they talk about shadowrunners, too.

There’s a fine line between mercenaries and shadowrunners, and it’s a line that gets crossed repeatedly. Sometimes runners will find themselves in the battlefield, working with a mercenary group and doing their best to survive as all kinds of fire rain down on their heads. Other times, they’ll find themselves in the sights of a skilled and deadly mercenary corps, trying to stay alive against superior numbers and firepower.

Either way, they should know about the mercenary units out there, to either improve their bargaining position or help them stay alive. 10 Mercsprofiles ten different mercenary outfits, including Ryan Mercury’s New Assets, the unconventional skill of Bravo Company, and the deadly magic of Task Force Magus. These groups present an array of threats or a bounty of opportunities—depending on which end of the barrel you’re at.

Along with the unit profiles, 10 Mercs provides NPC stats for each unit along with information on vehicles used by many of the units. If mercenaries are going to play a role in your campaign, 10 Mercs is a critical resource for adding flavor, plot hooks, and rules to your Shadowrungame.

10 Mercs is for use with Shadowrun, Twentieth Anniversary Edition.
hermit
Uhm. I need an Errata or a clarification.

Falcon TAC-C CSM M1
The text hints it doubles as a rigger cocoon. Is that correct? What is it's availability? Is the price a typo (5,500 Nuyen)? How does it work with non-aerial drones; does it work with the same benefits as hinted or not?
Prime Mover
Ryan Mercury and a team of Drake mercs, worth the price of admission.
Bigity
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Feb 27 2013, 10:16 AM) *
Ryan Mercury and a team of Drake mercs, worth the price of admission.


Really? Ugh
bannockburn
A short review:
I generally liked the writeups, but, as usual, there are a lot of glaring errors and the product would have benefited from proper editing and proofreading.

Not even mentioning minor typos and wrong words (no, MS Word auto correct is still not proper proofreading), a bold and blue HEADLINE spelling the name of EL CAUDRILLA (sic) wrong is just embarrassing.
An 884m long America Class amphibious assault carrier, where someone apparently mistook feet for meters (hint: the USS Enterprise is only about 342m long and a RL America class 257m, the longest to date built ship is a tanker with about 458m), is something where heads should have been scratched. AND it is too fast by a factor of about 2,3. The Free Marine Corps all in all seems a bit mary-sueish to me, but opinions may differ.

The TAC-C, while a good and interesting idea is ... too valuable for the low price. By far. Fortunately it is missing an availability attribute, so it can never be bought smile.gif
The supposedly ultra silent pistol doesn't have electronic firing. While I like that it has a barrel extension (this just looks cool, and yes, I may be biased from watching Black Lagoon atm), this makes me a sad panda. It's almost unobtainable with the given availability, too. Fortunately, it's a simple thing to just mod a Colt Government 2066 to the same specs. AND it's cheaper in material cost, too.
Ryan Mercury has always been Gary Stu, but a knife that does (Str/2+4)P is just ridiculous. That's a claymore or combat axe in a 15cm package.
At several points I've noticed that adepts with improved reflexes 2 are missing one point of improved reaction that comes with it, but I consider this minor.
What is a bit more baffling is that Major McCord has item attunement metamagic for a short sword he doesn't possess (and a better weapon focus anyways). Could be flavor, of course, from an earlier point in his career, but it caught my eye.

I thoroughly enjoyed Task Force Magus. They embody everything the common man fears about magicians. I only wonder how they keep securing employments at all ... There can't be _that_ many crazy warlords out th... okay. Never mind. wink.gif

I think I'll start backing Thunder Corps for the Desert Wars, for sheer comedic value ^^ To quote: "It's like a train wreck with bullets and missiles". What's not to love? biggrin.gif
The BattleCam drone is really weird, though. 10 Body and 10 Armor on something the size of a football?

The reuse of the old art is another thing that I really liked smile.gif Earl Geier's artwork from FoF touches my nostalgia.
I want to know what happens when you turn down the offer for a lap dance from daisy! And how it could be worse than having a troll perform a lap dance for you! biggrin.gif

All in all: With 52 pages, a decent value for the price, overshadowed by low quality assurance. Writeups range from (for lack of a better word) 'patriotic' to downright goofy while most are giving a sane and sober rundown of the units. Most are enjoyable to read. I preferred the goofy ones, tbh wink.gif
hermit
Okay, two weeks is enough to assume no response will ever come. Very well, here's my review.

10 Mercs is a bit of a mixed bag. With one exception (more later), the unit writeups are enjoyable, if a bit littered with spelling errors and sometimes odd stats. Proofing seems to have been limited to Word autocorrect again, though even that would catch some of the more glaring typos. The title page also lists the author as primary proofer. This does not work. You can't properly proof your own writing. Period. There's a reason the editor exists.

The document also introduces new equipment. Now, SR3 has shown us the bad idea of scattering sensible gear throughout fluff books in obscure places, and SR4 once set out to fix that. Apparently, that was thrown under the bus along with things such as editing and tables of content, which again are entirely absent in this document. That new items are scattered throughout the document without a table in the end, which makes them harder to find than they should be, doesn't help either. Of course, since the stats of these things never work quite well, sometimes are plain ridiculous (Colt Government TC? Assets' crysknife?), it may be a good idea to just keep them buried. The author apparently didn't know a lot about how SR4 rules work.

The writeups themselves are fitting for the world for the most part. I'm very glad someone finally determined what Matador's former unit actually looks like, and many other units fill interesting niches, from Ace Combat like air mercs to LOL, in case of Thunder Corps. Shadowposters sometimes act wildly out of character - Fastjack lets people into Jackpoint only to diss regulars now? Is that intended to show just how much he's is losing it? And Black Mamba changed from hard-ass African merc who enjoys cutting off peoples' limbs for fun to gossiping schoolgirl. Fail.

But I noticed something interesting about the units. With few exceptions (the 77th Rangers and the 58th brigade, the Iron Cavalry, and if you're generous, the 180th Air), they are from America, made up of Americans, and with few exceptions, they're, uhm, varying degrees of patriotic, to go with bannockburn's way of putting it. Why is that? The 6th world has many warzones and merc havens. There's Eastern Europe, there's Southeast Asia, thers's Yakutia, there's the AzAm War, there's Africa, there's the Phillipine mess, the Balkans, Papua. But NONE are in North America. So why are so many mercs from there? Why is there no Russian unit, no African unit, nobody from Lisbon or Lagos or Amazonia? Wasted opportunities. Instead, we get: the Free Marine Corps.

The Free Marine Corps ... I'm sorry, but what the hell? This isn't an interesting unit, it's wanking to Mary Sues. And what's worse, it's dragging real-world ideology into the setting in a thoroughly unpleasant way. I realise this has been going on for a while, but so far it has been mostly subdued - which cannot be said about the FMC. That should be a big, fat NO GO.

All in all: delivers decent content, but has some hard to ignore flaws. Like many CGL products, a good base but in need of some polishing, more varied content, and some reining in of the author's fanboyism.
Grinder
Who's the author of this PDF?
bannockburn
R.J. Thomas
Pepsi Jedi
I rather liked it. It's a small PDF product. Not meant for great detail or anything, but more for flavor and jumping off points. For that, it does a good job. A few fun interesting facts about each merc group. Enough to give you flavor and let the GM Flesh out.

For what it is, I think it excels.
Nath
Only skimmed quickly, but got a first facepalm over the 180th Tactical Air Regiment claim of a fifteen-to-one kill ratio against NAN pilots during the Ghost Dance War.

...

This book somehow managed to push the crazyness of that part of SR history further than it ever went. The Sovereign American Indian Movement was a guerrilla operating within the borders of US and Canada. How the hell are they supposed to have assembled anything like an air force, and one large enough to actually reach that 15-to-1 ratio? What need did they have for an air force when they could take down the opposing forces with air spirits?
bannockburn
They had 15 Ultralights and managed to shoot down one fighter biggrin.gif
Fatum
Typical PDF release quality.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Or merely self-serving, overblown hype making a Mercenary Company out to be better than it really is. Hmmmmm, That never happens IRL. smile.gif
hermit
Since hese documents are supposed to be, in-game, an assessment of the mercenary organisations by prospective hirers and NOT shameless self aggrandisation, TJ, that approach makes little sense.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 9 2013, 01:48 PM) *
Since hese documents are supposed to be, in-game, an assessment of the mercenary organisations by prospective hirers and NOT shameless self aggrandisation, TJ, that approach makes little sense.


And yet you see that even in real-world assessments IRL. Sometimes it is hard to keep it out. Spin is an ongoing occurence, after all.
However, I was simply offering one possible explanation for the discrepency.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see the actual document yet, since I have not been able to purchase it yet. Hopefully soon.
Pepsi Jedi
Well the "Ghost Dance War" started in 2014, but Howling Coyote had been building his forces since he busted out on Dec 24th 2011. So he had three years of build up before he basicly told everyone to GTFO in June of 2014. they captured the sub in Aug 2015, in 2016, the US ordered the 'removal' of all Native Americans from US soil. The Great Ghost Dance happens August 17th 2017, the Treaty of Denver didn't happen till April 25th of 2018. So that's a war that lasted 6 full years. Not all of which was the Ghost Dance.

While I doubt that the Nan had tons and tons and tons of planes, they still could have some, in which the 180th was still part of the USAF (reserve) and thus active. The NAN was "Formed" between 2011 and 2014. The NAN is known for having used Magic alot, but the 'war' still lasted 6 years with conventional engagements through out. The NAN would also sic tornado's on enemy jets. lol so calling up the Reserve and putting it in the field isn't out of line.
hermit
QUOTE
And yet you see that even in real-world assessments IRL. Sometimes it is hard to keep it out. Spin is an ongoing occurence, after all.
However, I was simply offering one possible explanation for the discrepency.

Well, let's just say some services are more thorough in intelligence gathering than others.

QUOTE
Well the "Ghost Dance War" started in 2014, but Howling Coyote had been building his forces since he busted out on Dec 24th 2011. So he had three years of build up before he basicly told everyone to GTFO in June of 2014. they captured the sub in Aug 2015, in 2016, the US ordered the 'removal' of all Native Americans from US soil. The Great Ghost Dance happens August 17th 2017, the Treaty of Denver didn't happen till April 25th of 2018. So that's a war that lasted 6 full years. Not all of which was the Ghost Dance.

How many warplanes did Al Quaida successfully use against America in the War on Terror, which is a lot closer to the Ghost Dance War than conventional warfare? and they had 20 years to prepare. The 180th would have sounded a lot more plausible if they had been successful navigating the spirits and weather phenomena the Natives threw at the US, successfully attacked ground targets, and gotten their Ace Combat merits in the Eurowars.
CanRay
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 9 2013, 06:13 PM) *
How many warplanes did Al Quaida successfully use against America in the War on Terror, which is a lot closer to the Ghost Dance War than conventional warfare? and they had 20 years to prepare. The 180th would have sounded a lot more plausible if they had been successful navigating the spirits and weather phenomena the Natives threw at the US, successfully attacked ground targets, and gotten their Ace Combat merits in the Eurowars.
And how big an airforce did Afghanistan have? And what kind of planes?

Now, how easy would it be for a couple of Combat Shamans to mollywhomp a US Air Force Base security force? The problem isn't getting the planes, it would have been finding pilots.

Hell, the planes could have been Canadian Armed Forces planes, as well! Which, considering the condition of Canadian Air Power, makes a kill ratio like that rather pathetic...
hermit
QUOTE
And how big an airforce did Afghanistan have? And what kind of planes?

Russian, mostly Mig 21 and older, barely air capable, around 20 in working order, none even made it off ground, if I am not massively misremembering.

QUOTE
Now, how easy would it be for a couple of Combat Shamans to mollywhomp a US Air Force Base security force? The problem isn't getting the planes, it would have been finding pilots.

Exactly. Though Shamans back then were very inexperienced with their powers. there might have been 5, 6 qualified indians to fly dusted-off 4th gen planes. I doubt any would be trained with F22, or F35 (which in SR actually could fly, apparently).

QUOTE
Hell, the planes could have been Canadian Armed Forces planes, as well! Which, considering the condition of Canadian Air Power, makes a kill ratio like that rather pathetic...

Sure, but as you said, the bottleneck is pilots.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 9 2013, 05:13 PM) *
How many warplanes did Al Quaida successfully use against America in the War on Terror, which is a lot closer to the Ghost Dance War than conventional warfare? and they had 20 years to prepare. The 180th would have sounded a lot more plausible if they had been successful navigating the spirits and weather phenomena the Natives threw at the US, successfully attacked ground targets, and gotten their Ace Combat merits in the Eurowars.


Well that's the thing. the NAN Successfully (Kinda) Stole a nuclear sub, which shows they were infiltrating armed forces bases and stealing equipment. Not just a few crates of guns and such either. They managed to pull off something that has never happened in the history of the US. I'd guess pilots are alot easier to get ahold of than people that can drive a nuclear sub.

As pointed out, it's not like Afghanistan had tons of Jets on the ground to steal, or even pilots to steal them. The Nan how ever, could simply have sent it's people to normal flight schools straight up 100% legally. Now, yes, before you point out 'Hey man, there's a difference between flying a Cessna or a 747, and a military jet." Yes. There --is-- a difference, but if you can fly a normal plane, you only need one or two experienced combat pilots to teach you the differences.

More to the point, the fact that they had the jets is kinda the hardest part. Commercial pilots, with a few hours each with an experienced pilot might be able to get them off the ground. Good enough to scare the crap out of some folks, and maybe even launch a missile or two or drop a few bombs. If the majority of their pilots were in-experienced, it would also explain the 15 to 1 ratio of the 180th as well. It's probably alot easier to shoot down pilots that aren't all that experienced, flying stolen planes or even commercial planes that had been 'converted' for combat or bombing. They don't' work awesome but you can take cargo planes and push bombs out of them. Mount guns in the doors and stuff.

So it's 'possible' the numbers were there. Just not expounded on till now. It's not like the NAN broke Howling Coyote out.... then laid dormant for years.. then blew the one volcano...... then the tornadoes.... then the ghost dance, and that was --it-- for the entirety of the war.

So the "bottle neck" is very easily explained as normal people that went to normal flight school, legally, and then just given a (Pardon the pun) Crash course in combat avionics. (Also remember that for a long time now, you can get "Tribal Status" with as little as 1/32nd or 1/64th Native American blood. So people don't have to have hip length black hair, bronzed/red skin and feathers all over. A member of the Nan might pass as a white guy to anyone on the street.)

The 'crash course' in air combat , also contributes to the kill ratio that the 180th managed to pull off.
CanRay
Actually, I just remembered something... The NAN included Hispanics.

When you take the number of Hispanic and AmerIndians in the Air Force, you could get a squadron or two together pretty easily... And then you get them to train other pilots of more traditional craft... The war did go on for years after all.
hermit
QUOTE
Well that's the thing. the NAN Successfully (Kinda) Stole a nuclear sub

What? Which one? The one from Secrets of Power, which didn'd make it past Vancouver Island? They infiltrated a US nuclear silo, which, given 9/11 never happened and security in the States themselves was bored and super ineffective, wasn't much of an effort, I'd say.

QUOTE
So the "bottle neck" is very easily explained as normal people that went to normal flight school, legally, and then just given a (Pardon the pun) Crash course in combat avionics.

That's work for 4th gen fighters, the current US models - F22, F35, which also happened in SR's parallel history according to RBB 2 - can't be flown that way anymore. And, even if they found pilots, these aircraft come at roughly 60 hours maintainance and repair after each sortie, even if there was no combat and not even rough weather. The NAN would need actual infrastructure to maintain them, parts, components, radar-absorbent paint ... contracts with Lockheed and suppliers. I can't see that, I realy can't. Those are American planes we'Re talking about, capricious machines built assuming maintainance is never a problem, not russian low-end planes optimised for being usable under any condition. No, sorry. That wouldn't even work with 4th gen fighters. They'd be out of operable planes really fast. And even durable russian and european models need maintainance, ground crews, fuel, munitions ... all of which the NAN never had.

They may have welded mussiles they stole onto PA-25 or something, and done emergency sorties with them. In that case, I tip my hat to the brave and competent NAN guerilla pilots, because a 15 to 1 kill ratio against F22 operated by a government unit with all the contracts is damn impressive. Well, maybe the 160th was flying F35.

Besides, the NAN waged a guerilla war. Usually, that kind of war does not involve both sides having the kind of infrastructure necessary to sustain an air force. In such an assymetrical war, one side usually has air supremacy and the other dodges around their planes and kills their soldiers with IED and nighttime raids on outposts.

QUOTE
When you take the number of Hispanic and AmerIndians in the Air Force, you could get a squadron or two together pretty easily... And then you get them to train other pilots of more traditional craft... The war did go on for years after all.

Okay, I forgot that, too. Yeah, then at least they'd have a sufficient pool of trained soldiers to draw from and get themselves up to speed in modern warfare.
Nath
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 10 2013, 03:39 AM) *
the NAN Successfully (Kinda) Stole a nuclear sub, which shows they were infiltrating armed forces bases and stealing equipment.
No clue on that one. SAIM supporters who were part of the US Armed Forces seized control of an ICBM launch facility in Shiloh, Montana, not a submarine, in 2009, and fired one (the "Lone Eagle" incident). The NAN forces led by Thunder Tyee seized the Bangor submarine base in 2015 and two months later the shipyards in Bremerton. Thunder Tyee was surrounding Fort Lewis and McChord AFB but didn't made the move, as the Ghost Dancers then gave their geologic warning shot that prompted a cease-fire. The taking of these two bases appears to be significant events enough so that they're the only NAN forces operations to be listed in Sixth World Almanac timeline, and Thunder Tyee to be the only NAN military commander whose name is well-known and whose live became a trid show.
The only vessel mentioned involved, in the novel Find Your Own Truth, page 268, is the Wichita SSN, which the Amerindians tried to sink, and his captain moved out and scuttled. It seemingly took thirty years before the wreck was located and the nukes retrieved.
The NAN lack of nukes is somewhat confirmed in NAN Volume 1, page 103, with the assumption that if the Sioux have any nukes, they bought them from an European country.

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 10 2013, 03:39 AM) *
The 'crash course' in air combat , also contributes to the kill ratio that the 180th managed to pull off.
Then the 180th wouldn't be described as "one of the few USAF units to successfully engage NAN forces."

QUOTE (CanRay @ Mar 10 2013, 05:55 AM) *
When you take the number of Hispanic and AmerIndians in the Air Force, you could get a squadron or two together pretty easily... And then you get them to train other pilots of more traditional craft... The war did go on for years after all.
About three years or three years and a half. The Ghost Dance War started with Daniel Coleman declaration on June 10th, 2014, and ended in mid to late 2017 or early 2018. They may have initiated their efforts to train pilots before 2014, indeed (though probably not before 2011, since they had no knowledge beforehand that they could ever engage in an actual war with the help of magic).

Anyway, one or two squadrons is not enough to sustain the kill ratio claimed by the 180th: 15-to-1, with 80% of its pilots killed. Even if you assume that half the pilots were assassinated by SAIM commando, that would still mean they downed over one hundred aircrafts. And that's not counting the few others USAF units who successfully engaged NAN forces.

I'm still highly dubious at the interest of maintaining any air force for the SAIM. An air base has big logistic requirements, runways, buildings, spare parts, ammunition, kerosene. It's easily located by satellite, and easily shut down by a Tomahawk cruise missiles strike (not to mention all those opportunity the 180th must have if they were that good). If they happened to have shamans powerful enough to hide an entire air base and/or stop cruise missiles mid-air, then you are left to wonder why they bothered to assemble an airforce in the first place, and make such powerful assets vulnerable by keeping them static.
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 9 2013, 11:13 PM) *
How many warplanes did Al Quaida successfully use against America in the War on Terror, which is a lot closer to the Ghost Dance War than conventional warfare? and they had 20 years to prepare.

None, but the Taliban had several during their conquest of Afghanistan. The SAIM took over several military bases and supposedly had a lot of support among the population, so both material and trained personnel for a dozen aircraft of so should not have been the issue.
Unless a single guy shot down all fifteen planes the SAIM/NAN had the kill ratio is still illusionary, but the concept of them having some air assets is not. And if they ran out of spare parts and fuel after a few sorties, well, a few is more than none...
hermit
QUOTE
None, but the Taliban had several during their conquest of Afghanistan. The SAIM took over several military bases and supposedly had a lot of support among the population, so both material and trained personnel for a dozen aircraft of so should not have been the issue.

I'm pretty sure Aztlan also had an air force. Well, maybe they were helping the NAN, and Red Dawn came true for America after all.

QUOTE
Unless a single guy shot down all fifteen planes the SAIM/NAN had the kill ratio is still illusionary, but the concept of them having some air assets is not. And if they ran out of spare parts and fuel after a few sorties, well, a few is more than none...

Modern fighter jets are a lot less durable than you seem to think they are. Especially the American stealth-ish ones. And there, especially the F35, which can be expected to spend two days per flight hour in maintainance under ideal circumstances.

QUOTE
Anyway, one or two squadrons is not enough to sustain the kill ratio claimed by the 180th: 15-to-1, with 80% of its pilots killed. Even if you assume that half the pilots were assassinated by SAIM commando, that would still mean they downed over one hundred aircrafts. And that's not counting the few others USAF units who successfully engaged NAN forces.

One possible explaination/rationalisation is that the former Mexican air force joined the fight against the US army.

QUOTE
I'm still highly dubious at the interest of maintaining any air force for the SAIM. An air base has big logistic requirements, runways, buildings, spare parts, ammunition, kerosene. It's easily located by satellite, and easily shut down by a Tomahawk cruise missiles strike (not to mention all those opportunity the 180th must have if they were that good). If they happened to have shamans powerful enough to hide an entire air base and/or stop cruise missiles mid-air, then you are left to wonder why they bothered to assemble an airforce in the first place, and make such powerful assets vulnerable by keeping them static.

I could see a guerilla air force as has been projected in East and West Germany and other Cold War front line states for WW3. Basically, using highways and similar infrastructure for runways, with hidden hangars spaced regularily along them. However, since the American mainland's infrastructure wasn't planned with such a dual purpose in mind, I don't know whether that could work there, too (and for their equipment; 4th gen fighters were built with this in mind, 5th gen fighters not).
Nath
I also considered the idea that said "NAN air force" was actually that of Mexico/Aztlan, since the country was labeled as a NAN after the Azatlan Party takeover in 2015. I dismissed since it nonetheless either derails known SR history or goes outright silly again. The Azatlan Party and ORO, and then Aztlan government after the 2015 election, may have provided covert support to the SAIM. Such support may actually have played a key role in the SAIM/NAN operations. However, aircrafts entering within US airspace doesn't qualify as covert (especially when one squadron shoot them down by dozens). I would have expected at least one SR book somewhere to mention that the US and Aztlan either went at war or somehow avoided it.

You may imagine that in the time between the collapse of Mexico government in 2010, the establishment of the corporate-backed provisional government, and the 2015 election won by the Azatlan party, parts of the Mexican army joined the SAIM for some reasons (instead of joining the cartels as one would rather expect) with their equipment, including aircrafts, thus preventing the US government to blame Mexican/Aztlan government for it.

Considering the Fuerza Aérea Mexicana most modern aircraft is the F-5, it would make maintenance a lot less of a nightmare. Considering that they have about ten of them, and their second best aircrafts are sixty Pilatus PC-7, it makes the 180th claim mere bragging.

Of course, SR alternate history may have a completely different order of battle for the Mexican Army.
Sengir
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 04:32 PM) *
and Red Dawn came true for America after all.

Kids who can carry several machine guns and a wounded comrade without breaking a sweat? That might explain some SAIM successes...

QUOTE
which can be expected to spend two days per flight hour in maintainance under ideal circumstances.

Only if by "ideal circumstances" you mean a single mechanic working at it, since those are man hours. And 48 man hours per flight hour is in the same ballpark as the Phantom or F-14, which the Iranians managed to keep operational throughout the first Gulf War, despite being cut off from spare parts and most trained personnel being either emigrated or executed (because the training was done by Americans).

Also, again: Having aircraft which can fly a few combat sorties before half of them break down is still better than having none at all
Nath
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 10 2013, 05:23 PM) *
Also, again: Having aircraft which can fly a few combat sorties before half of them break down is still better than having none at all
Except they didn't have them to start with. Assembling that air force would have required tremendous efforts in the first place. Listing all SAIM volunteers with pilot or maintenance crew experience and move them to the right area ; assemble a ground force able to take over an existing Air Force Base and its aircrafts ,intact, or acquire them from Mexico and built an airbase out of nowhere ; prevent the detection and destruction of the airbase ; then, finally, fly one or several sorties.

And then it still wouldn't match how it's depicted in 10 Mercs, with several units successfully engaging NAN air forces, with at least the 180th doing it several times, and then the SAIM mobilizing its much more precious special forces for the sole purpose of killing the 180th pilots on ground. This clearly suggests a persistent threat of the NAN air force.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
What? Which one? The one from Secrets of Power, which didn'd make it past Vancouver Island? They infiltrated a US nuclear silo, which, given 9/11 never happened and security in the States themselves was bored and super ineffective, wasn't much of an effort, I'd say.


Sorry, "Submarine Base". Page 26, Sixth World Almanac.

As for your purely absurd 'Oh ain't no thing to infiltrate a nuclear silo'.... lol Hermit.. Come on. Some of your posts are funny but, "Wasn't much effort" to get into a nuclear silo? Give me a break.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
That's work for 4th gen fighters, the current US models - F22, F35, which also happened in SR's parallel history according to RBB 2 - can't be flown that way anymore.


Can't be flown what way? I assure you there's still a dude sittin' in um flying um.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
And, even if they found pilots, these aircraft come at roughly 60 hours maintainance and repair after each sortie, even if there was no combat and not even rough weather.


Maintenance? Simple. Skillsofts. You don't wanna enter combat with one but you can surely do maintenance with them.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
The NAN would need actual infrastructure to maintain them, parts, components, radar-absorbent paint ... contracts with Lockheed and suppliers.


Not really. What you're describing is stuff needed if the NAN invested millions to billions to maintain the airforce. Why would they? They could literaly 'Fly um like you stole um!!" and once they started to get messed up, aim them at their target, crank um up and punch out.

Yes in a conventional airforce you put loads of time and money into your planes because they're such huge investments. the NAN could (( at that point)) Have used them as very high priority disposable assets.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
I can't see that, I realy can't. Those are American planes we'Re talking about, capricious machines built assuming maintainance is never a problem, not russian low-end planes optimised for being usable under any condition.


Again, they're stolen items. and maintenance could be conducted with skillsofts untill they started to break down then you sacrifice them. You're thinking like a conventional long standing army. The NAN at this point wasn't.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
No, sorry. That wouldn't even work with 4th gen fighters. They'd be out of operable planes really fast.


They likely were. I doubt they were using fighter jets in every engagement. They very likely lost most of them in the first or second engagement they used them in, after stealing them.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
And even durable russian and european models need maintainance, ground crews, fuel, munitions ... all of which the NAN never had.


Why didn't they? because you said so? Ground crews and fuel is easy to find if you've stolen a jet. lol. There's munitions for them in every AFB Across the nation.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
They may have welded mussiles they stole onto PA-25 or something, and done emergency sorties with them. In that case, I tip my hat to the brave and competent NAN guerilla pilots, because a 15 to 1 kill ratio against F22 operated by a government unit with all the contracts is damn impressive. Well, maybe the 160th was flying F35.

Besides, the NAN waged a guerilla war. Usually, that kind of war does not involve both sides having the kind of infrastructure necessary to sustain an air force. In such an assymetrical war, one side usually has air supremacy and the other dodges around their planes and kills their soldiers with IED and nighttime raids on outposts.


Usually so, but the NAN also had magic which they weren't afraid to use. I'm with you. MOST of their engagements were very likly guerilla style, but apperently they also stole jets and used them too. Trust me, if guerilla's COULD do such things, they surely would/will.

QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 06:48 AM) *
Okay, I forgot that, too. Yeah, then at least they'd have a sufficient pool of trained soldiers to draw from and get themselves up to speed in modern warfare.


Not putting too fine a point on it, but couldn't the NAN have simply hired it's own mercenaries to teach them how to fly combat jets?
Sengir
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 10 2013, 06:03 PM) *
Listing all SAIM volunteers with pilot or maintenance crew experience and move them to the right area

Rumor has it that people with such qualifications sometimes can be found at airbases...and since the NAN enjoyed borad popular support, it would not be far-fetched if a enough of them defected. That the NAN took over several military bases is established in canon.

@Pepsi Jedi: ASIST was only invented in 2018, the year the war ended.
Nath
QUOTE (Sengir @ Mar 10 2013, 07:29 PM) *
That the NAN took over several military bases is established in canon.
Yes, it's canon. And it's always the same two bases: Bangor and Bremerton. None of them have aircraft or even a runway (unless somehow all the book so far forgot to tell us that they seized a full CVN). And it was nearly two months between the two, while they are only 20 kilometers apart. Then it took almost two years before Thunder Tyee was ready to attack Fort Lewis and McChord AFB, just 50 kilometers southeast.

Other bases are mentioned as taken over only after the four eruption in August 2017, that mark the end of the war.

QUOTE
Seattle Sourcebook, page 14
In 2015, Salish forces led by Thunder Tyee captured the Trident submarne base at Bangor. Two months later, the captured the Puget Sound NAval Shipyard at Bremerton. Accross the Sound, Council forces were poised for a final showdown as their now superior forces surrounded McChord Air Force Base and Fort Lewis.
Then nature played her part. On august 17, 2017, at 10:32 A.M., Mount Hood, Mount St. Helens, Mount Rainier and Mount Adams simultaneously erupted in cataclysmic explosions.

Native American Nations Volume One, page 75, Volume Two, page 59
At 10:30 A.M. PST, August 17, 2017, the operation began to roll.
At 10:32 A.M. PST, Mount Hood, Mount Rainier, Mount St. Helens, and Mount Adams all erupted in cataclysmic fury. The Genocide Campaign ground to a halt. The Amerindians had made good on their threats, and no one could dubt their power again.
At the same time, Native American tribesmen and non-Indian sympathizers occupied military bases in all three North America countries, demanding a multinational conference. Chastened and wary, the three governments sent representatives to negotiate with the Ghost Dancers.

Sixth World Almanac, page 26
2015, August 6 - USA: Salish warriors led by Thunder Tyee capture a submarine base near Bangor.
2015, October 4 - USA: Thunder Tyee and his warriors remain on the move, taking over the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard.

CanRay
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 10:32 AM) *
I'm pretty sure Aztlan also had an air force. Well, maybe they were helping the NAN, and Red Dawn came true for America after all.
You mean it isn't a documentary? I feel ripped off now. nyahnyah.gif
Pepsi Jedi
The new one is on blue ray this week. smile.gif
hermit
QUOTE
You mean it isn't a documentary? I feel ripped off now.

Demand your money back? that's a good choice with that movie anyway.
CanRay
QUOTE (hermit @ Mar 10 2013, 02:30 PM) *
Demand your money back? that's a good choice with that movie anyway.
Can't, watched it years ago at a relatives. They had it on VHS.
hermit
If it wasn't free, demand the money back. Though the old one was a little less totally shit than the new one.
Pepsi Jedi
lol I loved the old one when I was a kid.

The new one was Fun. It was nothing that's going to change your life on a fundamental level, but it was fun. I'm not sure what people are expecting in 'action' movies these days.

WOLVERINES!!!
Angelone
So James Meiers lived.
EKBT81
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 10 2013, 07:09 PM) *
Maintenance? Simple. Skillsofts. You don't wanna enter combat with one but you can surely do maintenance with them.
(...)
Again, they're stolen items. and maintenance could be conducted with skillsofts untill they started to break down then you sacrifice them. You're thinking like a conventional long standing army. The NAN at this point wasn't.

Except that skillsofts weren't available at the time of the Ghost Dance War. 6th World Almanac states 2043 as the year skillsofts became commercially available.
hermit
QUOTE (Angelone @ Mar 13 2013, 11:36 PM) *
So James Meiers lived.

As the saying goes, if you can't say something nice, best not to say anything at all.

For reference:
QUOTE (hermit @ Feb 26 2013, 06:01 PM) *
Uhm. I need an Errata or a clarification.

Falcon TAC-C CSM M1
The text hints it doubles as a rigger cocoon. Is that correct? What is it's availability? Is the price a typo (5,500 Nuyen)? How does it work with non-aerial drones; does it work with the same benefits as hinted or not?


QUOTE (Mystic @ Mar 14 2013, 09:42 AM) *
The Falconer Mk 1 was conceived as a combination of the two for use in either 1) a fast moving aircraff like a fighter-bomber to increase it's strike capability or 2) a large slower moving aircraft a la modern AWACS with multiple modules on board. So yes it's a cocoon with an integrated software package suite and was meant for use on aerial vehicles. Avalability, well I could have sworn that I put in NA as the avalability as the unit is supposed to be a prototype, not a production model, with only small number exsisting. My bad on that. frown.gif Pricewise, it seemed like a good idea at the time, based on what I saw as the cost for comperable stuff and hardware. But, being a prototype, there are always unforseen costs that tend to push projects over budget (glitches, sabotage, discovered incompatibility with various programs, "the damn things just not working", etc) that increase the final price on the production model. Maybe you should look at the cost as being the raw materials, not the end product: much like cars.

Now, if you want to use this and control ground vehicles from the air...I don't see why not but there are issues such as speed and range to consider. Want to put it in a ground vehicle...again, sure why not but I would say that that the software would have to be re-written to deal with the new operation parameters and you would be better off with standard stuff.

But then, someone may decide to change this later in the new rules. I have not heard one way or another if this will be used in any upcoming products. This is all just my personal two-cents.

Now, that being said, I personally would have no problem if a GM wants to take what I just said and throw it out the window if it suits their game or modify it as such. They do have final say in any game. Heck, in any of my games, I would make getting one a run in of itself and then the players may or may not like what they get. But then, I'm just an evil bastach that way (muahahaha).The Falconer is more of the beginning of a concept rather than a finished product. Hope that helps.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (EKBT81 @ Mar 13 2013, 06:51 PM) *
Except that skillsofts weren't available at the time of the Ghost Dance War. 6th World Almanac states 2043 as the year skillsofts became commercially available.


Yeah someone else pointed that out days ago. *points up*

Doesn't change the fact that there's thousands of people around that can maintain and upkeep aircraft. Pilots are much more rare. Any airport or airfield might have a number of mechanics. And computer diagnostics are the name of the game.
Liam
The FMC write up was almost physically painful to read through. Next time something about the Marine Corps needs to be written for an SR product, please have someone who actually served as a Marine look at it. And make sure that Marine doesn't suffer from this.

http://terminallance.com/2010/01/08/termin...-snco-syndrome/
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