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Bearclaw
So, in my 4A book, it says the range on clairvoyance is T. What? I must be misunderstanding, because that makes it seem pretty worthless. What am I missing?
UmaroVI
You touch a dude, and the dude gets Clairvoyance. You can touch yourself...with the spell.
Epicedion
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 11:33 AM) *
So, in my 4A book, it says the range on clairvoyance is T. What? I must be misunderstanding, because that makes it seem pretty worthless. What am I missing?


The target of the spell (the person who gets clairvoyance-y) has to be touched. What this means is that you can cast it on another person, rather than just yourself (at Personal range). The effect of the clairvoyance is then listed in the description.
Bearclaw
"The visual point may be moved to any location within range of the spell" would be what I'm talking about. Range = touch
Right?
Bearclaw
It really sucks that I can't edit my topic frown.gif
pbangarth
You touch the person, and then the rest of the description for Range of detection spells takes effect:

Range: The standard sensory range for a Detection spell is the
spellís Force x Magic in meters. For extended range Detection spells,
the effective range of the new sense is Force x Magic x 10 meters. Note
that any of the standard range spells listed below may be learned with
an extended range instead (adding +2 DV).
pbangarth
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 11:47 AM) *
It really sucks that I can't edit my topic frown.gif

It's kind of a misspelled Freudian slip, wouldn't you say?
Bearclaw
So, from a fixed location I can see Force x Magic meters. Which is nowhere near how far I can see with my actual eyes. Nothing in the rules sounds like it's the floating eye I thought it was.
darthmord
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 11:52 AM) *
So, from a fixed location I can see Force x Magic meters. Which is nowhere near how far I can see with my actual eyes. Nothing in the rules sounds like it's the floating eye I thought it was.


I don't recall anything about walls or other obstructions blocking your magical sight though. So it could be quite useful for reconnaissance.
Mantis
Yeah it doesn't seem like walls would stop it. It also offers you the ability to get up close to things to check them out (like a bomb) without you actually getting close to them. You could use it to read things as well from a distance. If you were in a cramped series of hallways or alleys you could use it to scout or spot enemy positions. Lots of uses for this spell and I'd probably get it with the Extended option pbangarth mentioned.
Manunancy
In the case of clairvoyance, I'd assume the range is how far out you can set you point of view. After that, i'd say normal visual range.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Mantis @ Mar 6 2013, 10:16 AM) *
Yeah it doesn't seem like walls would stop it. It also offers you the ability to get up close to things to check them out (like a bomb) without you actually getting close to them. You could use it to read things as well from a distance. If you were in a cramped series of hallways or alleys you could use it to scout or spot enemy positions. Lots of uses for this spell and I'd probably get it with the Extended option pbangarth mentioned.


That's what I thought, but nothing in the rules backs that up. Range is touch. So, you can touch a drone and send it to where you want to see, or something lame like that, but I can't find any rule to back up the idea of sending your vision down the hall like a floating eye. If that were the case, range would be LOS.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 10:26 AM) *
That's what I thought, but nothing in the rules backs that up. Range is touch. So, you can touch a drone and send it to where you want to see, or something lame like that, but I can't find any rule to back up the idea of sending your vision down the hall like a floating eye. If that were the case, range would be LOS.


No... Range is Magic x Force Meters (or Magic x Force x 10 Meters for the Extended Range version), it is not line of sight. Touch is for the recipient of the special sense (in this case Clairvoyance). Your floating eye (your choice not mine) is not impeded by anything short of a Ward or Background Count, so it can go anywhere within that Bubble of effect. It is quite useful. smile.gif
Lantzer
The way I read it, the target of the spell gets the sense, and can See Everything* in range.

* Well, everything that doesn't resist and has a low enough object resistance rating. That's right, you might see the security guard around the corner, but miss the Steel Lynx, or vice versa. You can look into a closed room and see only one person, when there are 5 others who resisted.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 6 2013, 10:59 AM) *
No... Range is Magic x Force Meters (or Magic x Force x 10 Meters for the Extended Range version), it is not line of sight. Touch is for the recipient of the special sense (in this case Clairvoyance). Your floating eye (your choice not mine) is not impeded by anything short of a Ward or Background Count, so it can go anywhere within that Bubble of effect. It is quite useful. smile.gif


So I'm really not trying to be a tool about this, but that's not what it says. That's what I always thought it does, but it doesn't say that. Unless there's errata or something. Are we saying that "The standard sensory range..." part means where we can move the magic eye's to? I'm good with that, but that's not the way I understood it.

So, if that's the case, the vision would just behave like normal vision, with a fairly unlimited range, based on where-ever you've placed the eye
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 11:14 AM) *
So I'm really not trying to be a tool about this, but that's not what it says. That's what I always thought it does, but it doesn't say that. Unless there's errata or something. Are we saying that "The standard sensory range..." part means where we can move the magic eye's to? I'm good with that, but that's not the way I understood it.

So, if that's the case, the vision would just behave like normal vision, with a fairly unlimited range, based on where-ever you've placed the eye


Touch spells require a Subject (Range is Touch)
Detection Spells have a Sensory Range that is bestowed with the Spell, see below:

QUOTE (SR4A, Page 206)
Range: The standard sensory range for a Detection spell is the spell's Force x Magic in meters. For extended range Detection spells, the effective range of the new sense is Force x Magic x 10 meters. Note that any of the standard range spells listed below may be learned with an extended range instead (adding +2 DV).


You have a target for the Spell, and he gets a New Sense with a Sensory Range that he can now use. Detection Spells can ignore barriers (though not Wards or BGC unless extremely powerful), as you have a bubble of effect in which you can detect things. In the case of Clairvoyance, you can move your POV anywhere within that bubble. Not sure how else to explain it to you.
Lionhearted
Uhm, shouldn't the point of far sight be to see far away?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Mar 6 2013, 12:27 PM) *
Uhm, shouldn't the point of far sight be to see far away?


So get the extended Range Clairvoyance. smile.gif
Manunancy
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 6 2013, 08:31 PM) *
So get the extended Range Clairvoyance. smile.gif


And if that's not enough, ritual magic can probably extend that even farther provided you have a link to someone or something close to what you want to observe.

Note : I did a quick check on the spell's description, and it states that it let you observe 'as if physicaly present at any point chose within the sensory range of the spell'- which conforts my previous intepretation : the detection range limits how far you can place your 'eye', but what it can see is limited only by visibility and lines of sight.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 6 2013, 02:31 PM) *
And if that's not enough, ritual magic can probably extend that even farther provided you have a link to someone or something close to what you want to observe.

Note : I did a quick check on the spell's description, and it states that it let you observe 'as if physicaly present at any point chose within the sensory range of the spell'- which conforts my previous intepretation : the detection range limits how far you can place your 'eye', but what it can see is limited only by visibility and lines of sight.


That's how I thought it would work too, if you could actually move the eye at all.
Mostly, I just want to be able to see what my magic fingers are doing in the kitchen while I stay in the Lay-Z-Boy. Although, if the fridge or microwave are around a corner I guess magic fingers wouldn't work, cause there is no line of sight frown.gif
Manunancy
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 11:30 PM) *
That's how I thought it would work too, if you could actually move the eye at all.
Mostly, I just want to be able to see what my magic fingers are doing in the kitchen while I stay in the Lay-Z-Boy. Although, if the fridge or microwave are around a corner I guess magic fingers wouldn't work, cause there is no line of sight frown.gif


Clairvoyance doesn't cont as line of sight for targetting spells; which means usign it for handling magic fingers is a bit iffy here.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 6 2013, 12:26 PM) *
That's what I thought, but nothing in the rules backs that up. Range is touch. So, you can touch a drone and send it to where you want to see, or something lame like that, but I can't find any rule to back up the idea of sending your vision down the hall like a floating eye. If that were the case, range would be LOS.


The drone would have the clairvoyance in that case.
Jaid
yeah, i think you're all talking past each other here. for clarity: most of those trying to explain what is happening to the poster are assuming he understands the basic mechanic of all detection spells. i don't believe that's the case. and while those trying to explain how the spell works have mentioned it in passing, they haven't called enough attention to that specific part of detection spell mechanics to let the OP realize that detection spells work differently.

so, here's the basics of how a detection spell works:

you cast the spell on a target. that target gains the sense provided by the spell. the target is not where the sense originates from, and in fact, the caster only gains any senses at all if they used the spell on themselves.

so for example, bob the street samurai can walk up to sam the street shaman, and pay sam to cast clairvoyance on him. for the sake of argument, sam has magic 4 and casts the spell at force 4, and has spellcasting 3 with no modifiers applicable to detection spells. for as long as sam sustains the spell, bob (not sam) gains the ability described in the spell clairvoyance. as a passive spell, counterspelling and magic resistance do not apply, although the magician's dice pool for casting the spell will be the perception dice pool to see stuff through the spell (object resistance does not apply, but stealth tests or disguise tests do).

in the case of clairvoyance, the ability gained is to be able to see things as if he was physically at any location within range. therefore, the result of sam casting the spell on bob is that bob (not sam) can now decide to see things as if he was at any location within 16 meters of himself, with a perception dice pool of 7 (sam's spellcasting dice pool). clairvoyance does not specify, but i would say that this probably requires a simple action to observe in detail if you want to use this magical sense.

so, the confusion comes from the mistaken belief that the magician gains the sense centered on the target, which is not the case at all. the target gains the sense, and the sense has a range centered on the target.
Bearclaw
So, if Bob uses his clairvoyance to see what's on the other side of the wall, and there is someone on the other side and 17 meters away, will Bob see him?
Bearclaw
I always pictured it as being like when you get killed in Counterstrike, just with a limited range. You can float around, free of physical limitations, and see what's going on. Walls, floors and gravity don't interfere with you, and no one can see you. If you take that, and put the range restriction on how far your magic eye can travel, that's what I pictured. That's what I want to happen, but I want to make sure the rules agree with my view.
Lionhearted
What you describe sound like astral projection, classical accounts of clairvoyance usually involve witnessing an event that would be physically impossible for you to be privy to... as in far the heck away.
Bearclaw
Sure, but with a 20M range, give or take, you're not going to be looking in on the White House any time soon
Warlordtheft
I've always thought of it as a sense that is impossible to imagine--try picturing yourself with your standard sight as well as being able to see 360 degrees and around corners and other obstacles all at the same time....I'm suprised Bob's head doesn't explode but that's the way I understand how it works.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 7 2013, 04:57 PM) *
Sure, but with a 20M range, give or take, you're not going to be looking in on the White House any time soon



Yeah, even with extended the force 20 wards are a bitch.....
Jaid
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Mar 7 2013, 03:54 PM) *
So, if Bob uses his clairvoyance to see what's on the other side of the wall, and there is someone on the other side and 17 meters away, will Bob see him?


it places your vision as if you were physically at any location within the range of yourself. if you place your vision 16m away, and there is a person standing in the open relative to your virtual position but 17 meters from your body's location, then yes, you will see them. if that person is standing behind a wall, or is crouching behind a half-wall, or hiding behind a plant with a ruthenium body suit, probably not.
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