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Legs
I have a VERY vague idea in my head for a run...not even really an "idea" yet, actually...and i'd like some help steering me in the right direction or helping me flesh this out a bit.

I like throwing ethical dilemmas at my players. I have an idea for a run where the runners would have to extract an employee from a research facility and when they get there they find out the research is particularly heinous and they have to be careful not to destroy the research subjects. I have an image in my head of the characters entering a large room where people are catatonic and hardwired into the facility itself. Maybe they're even running the security or another aspect of the facility so a hacker has to be extra careful when doing her job to make sure she doesn't accidentally kill the research subjects.

I dunno...like I said, this isn't even to the "idea" stage yet. I just thought I'd get she extra opinions. Thanks all!
ShadowDragon8685
Legs: That might work best if the test subjects are all technomancers being very heavily controlled and basically forced to thread things, as an experimental alternative to actually buying some damn programs.

So that IC you're facing off isn't actually IC, it's some poor Emerged teenager who's doped up to the eyeballs and has no idea why she's threading an Attack program at you.
RHat
Technomancer experimentation, in the existing fiction, tends to result in digital "screaming" because of the pain they're experiencing. In these cases, they're not really taking coherent and directed action because they're just not able to. That said, technomancer experimentation is a good way to set up said dilemma - to really crank it up, you could have some of the subjects be kids. Make it clear that the Johnson wants the guy to continue his work, just for a different employer.
Pepsi Jedi
Paracritters.

If you're going for an extraction you always need some paracritters to liven up the fights.

With your above framework these fit in even better. The paracritters the team runs into were clearly "Alpha" Tests for what ever procedure the people are being tested. Be it biodrone type stuff or whatever. Even Technomancer experimentation CAN be performed on critters first, as according to the Emergence book there are a number of techno critters out there. (( personally I'd go a different way than Technomancer experimentation. It's heinous but it's kinda 'been done'. There was the entire book on it after all. Nothing wrong with it, but if you're going that way, grab Emergence and give it an entire campaign and long running sl. smile.gif

Still.....

Paracritters!
Shortstraw
Well you could combine the two and have them grafting brain tissue from technocritters into people to try and develop technomancer bioware or an emerged symbiont.
RHat
When you're looking to pose a moral dilemma regarding experimentation, animals won't always do it - depends on the players. People, especially kids, on the other hand, tend to be more likely to get a response.

However, the post I just got ninja'd by makes a wonderful suggestion: attempts to give people para- or technocritter abilities through transplantation.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 19 2013, 03:18 AM) *
When you're looking to pose a moral dilemma regarding experimentation, animals won't always do it - depends on the players. People, especially kids, on the other hand, tend to be more likely to get a response.

However, the post I just got ninja'd by makes a wonderful suggestion: attempts to give people para- or technocritter abilities through transplantation.


RHat's right. Animals don't do it for everyone.

I personally would react much stronger to animals.. but that's because I don't generally like lots of people. lol

My post was mostly for 'added challenges' to get to the moral delimia stage. Guard critters, but... experimental critters works too. smile.gif
Mach_Ten
building on the above

think this was a film a long time ago, but hell it works.

So the kids are all, "gifted" and selected for "Boarding school" then bought here to the institute.

the kids are dropped into VR and think they are constantly playing video games.

they are actually jacked into paracritter / cyber drones performing training exercises and performing security around the whole compound.

so when you kill that Doberman drone, it dumps the kid and due to the coctail of drugs, the kid suffers complete lobotomy and is taken for post mortem byt the minimal staff of scientists.


the runners are after ONE kid and only one, and only have the time and resources for ONE!


Plot twist, the staff of scientists are ALL PARENTS. only they don't know which are their kids.

Plot twist the second, the runners have been hired by the institute as a test of security and against some of the newest and deadliest test subjects

Third plot tweak, other teams of runners have been hired and are 'plugging' kids (security) left right and centre without care, how long till they accidentally kill the target ?

Manunancy
QUOTE (Legs @ Mar 19 2013, 06:31 AM) *
I have a VERY vague idea in my head for a run...not even really an "idea" yet, actually...and i'd like some help steering me in the right direction or helping me flesh this out a bit.

I like throwing ethical dilemmas at my players. I have an idea for a run where the runners would have to extract an employee from a research facility and when they get there they find out the research is particularly heinous and they have to be careful not to destroy the research subjects. I have an image in my head of the characters entering a large room where people are catatonic and hardwired into the facility itself. Maybe they're even running the security or another aspect of the facility so a hacker has to be extra careful when doing her job to make sure she doesn't accidentally kill the research subjects.

I dunno...like I said, this isn't even to the "idea" stage yet. I just thought I'd get she extra opinions. Thanks all!


Would the 'don't destroy test subjects' be par of the dilemn or an request by the employer ? I'd say the first (and maybe even even set them free), unless the employer want the subjects extracted along with the employee. I mean, if they snatch the resarcher, ruining the test subjects and as much data as possible would hinder whoever bankrolled the research in the first place when trying to resume his research.
Legs
This is all really good.
I was thinking the "don't hurt the test subjects" would be part of the moral dilemma. And the fact the kids are controlling security that is trying to kill the PCs will make it even more interesting.
And what about the researcher himself? I was thinking he'd be a willing extract. Maybe he finds out his kid is going to be a test subject so he wants out? Or his conscience gets the better of him and he finds out his employers are going to dispose of him because he doesn't want to continue the research, so he wants out while he's still alive?
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (Legs @ Mar 19 2013, 01:47 PM) *
This is all really good.
I was thinking the "don't hurt the test subjects" would be part of the moral dilemma. And the fact the kids are controlling security that is trying to kill the PCs will make it even more interesting.
And what about the researcher himself? I was thinking he'd be a willing extract. Maybe he finds out his kid is going to be a test subject so he wants out? Or his conscience gets the better of him and he finds out his employers are going to dispose of him because he doesn't want to continue the research, so he wants out while he's still alive?


okay, so the researcher figures out which one of the kids is his, but can't get him out without all the alarms going off

hires the runners to extract them both, BUT you know that the CORP (Ares I guess or even DocWagon) will be able to track him down after.
So his only way to really escape is to destroy the facility.

if the runners go ahead, you should make it blatantly apparent that everything thing that they kill is actually an innocent !

or they Must find another way to clear ALL the data without human casualties (you have to leave this bit in mate, if I was railroaded in a game where you have to kill innocents it gets all sorts of ugly IRL) then they've got the clock running against them and another agency soon out to get them

this sounds like so much fun, I'm gonna steal it and use it in my next run .. if I ever get to GM soon smile.gif

there is a sound ... and it goes like ... "Yoink!"
BishopMcQ
It could also be research following up on Dr Halberstam (Threats, Emergence).

An idea that came up in a different discussion is to trap a bunch of Astral Hazing changelings and lock them in place (drugs are good for this). Having a magic group using Geomancy to alter the flow of mana to aspect the background count towards their tradition. There are some fun possible side effects as the changelings' psyches are forced to change to accept the new paradigm, which is likely Twisted since it is based on crushing the will of others for personal power.
Teulisch
Medical research.

the facility is kidnapping SIN-less minorities, and infecting them with the ghoul virus, then performing research on them. and their research is actually showing progress! now, be very careful which electronically controlled doors you open, and yes there is an underpressure system with the airlock.

your Johnson wants you to destroy their research, as well as any samples they have.
that 'sample' is a 6-year-old ork ghoul undergoing treatment.
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (Teulisch @ Mar 19 2013, 02:42 PM) *
Medical research.

the facility is kidnapping SIN-less minorities, and infecting them with the ghoul virus, then performing research on them. and their research is actually showing progress! now, be very careful which electronically controlled doors you open, and yes there is an underpressure system with the airlock.

your Johnson wants you to destroy their research, as well as any samples they have.
that 'sample' is a 6-year-old ork ghoul undergoing treatment.


I like the idea, especially the paranoia of which door ... but having recently played a game where the door "Lottery" was prevalent, it got real boring real fast unless there's a way to find out if it's a "bad" door even more if there's a disease involved (permanent type) ... I'd want it to be something bad but not ghoul bad .. toxic but recoverable

but that's just me
BluSponge
I like it. I think I'll crib it and add it to my list of potential projects to flesh out for my own game.

Question/Problem: if the test subjects are running drones or even paracritters, what's stopping the team decker from just amping up the jamming interference? If you jam the signal, even a little, does that cause the death of the subject?

Idea: Have the other parent involved in the corp at a middle management level. Nice juicy promotion (ie better life for family) is assured with success of the project, and he/she fully subscribes to the work being done–maybe even volunteered the child in the first place. He/she knows the partner is uncomfortable with the situation and may try something like this.

Tom

Manunancy
In my opinion having the scientist rejecting his job would lessen the impact - have a quietly amoral guy. Not a sadist enjoying his experiment,s but simply a cold technocrat willing to go to any length necessary to perform his research. I'd also make sure the research is a mere moneymaker, not something destined to improve metahumanity's lot but only the sponsoring corp's bottom line. The 2070 equivalent of Viagra or hair-growth lotion...
Mach_Ten
QUOTE (BluSponge @ Mar 19 2013, 08:46 PM) *
Idea: Have the other parent involved in the corp at a middle management level. Nice juicy promotion (ie better life for family) is assured with success of the project, and he/she fully subscribes to the work being done–maybe even volunteered the child in the first place. He/she knows the partner is uncomfortable with the situation and may try something like this.

Oooho yeah, totally this ! one parent wants to succeed on the corporate ladder and never really wanted kids, but had one to get into this program !
the other that was totally brilliant in their field of science and didn't see until it was too late that the other partner was duping them !

QUOTE (BluSponge @ Mar 19 2013, 08:46 PM) *
Question/Problem: if the test subjects are running drones or even paracritters, what's stopping the team decker from just amping up the jamming interference? If you jam the signal, even a little, does that cause the death of the subject?


Now .. that right there is some top notch paranoia ... does the hacker try it ? and potentially kill a boat load ?

or is it the best way to harmlessly de-activate the drones,

I would have it but there needs to be several local nodes ... say 3-5 drones per node and each node is independenat of each other, so that if a hacker got it ...the whole program doesn't shut down

and Black IC ... LOTS of black IC ... and alarms to other real sector defences (turret guns manned by kids)

and ... stuff .. more deadly .. stuff ! ... oh the pain ... oh the tears of joy the GM will shed smile.gif
Lionhearted
Be very careful when putting kids in the firing line, even if it's to get across the graveness of the situation, it's one of those things that push buttons with people.
MrGlee
I do agree with Lionhearted, be careful when bringing children into runs.

However, an idea for a darker end of the run, the Johnson was the researcher himself, and he just wanted to test his experiments.
RHat
QUOTE (Lionhearted @ Mar 20 2013, 11:07 AM) *
Be very careful when putting kids in the firing line, even if it's to get across the graveness of the situation, it's one of those things that push buttons with people.


That much is true - you want to know where the line is for your group, or at least find out if something like this would cross it.
Iduno
QUOTE (Teulisch @ Mar 19 2013, 09:42 AM) *
your Johnson wants you to destroy their research, as well as any samples they have.
that 'sample' is a 6-year-old ork ghoul undergoing treatment.


As I was reading through the thread, I had this same idea. The runners, maybe as a secondary objective, must either steal or destroy all of the research samples while extracting the researcher.

If you're making it obvious the Johnson wants to continue the research, you may want to make it possible for the players to choose between taking their pay and putting a few holes in the Johnson.

I also agree with the idea of making sure the characters can find out through legwork that innocents die/get hit with dumpshock when they take out guard drones. Or enough information that they can figure it out before they have to go up against the drones.

Several good ways to play this run. Enjoy, but make sure the players do as well.
Blog
Genetically modified animals/people that have chemical glands for producing X.

A medical facility that has made great breakthroughs in disease/drug creation. Their dark secret? they infect these special beings with the disease and their bodies mass produce anti-bodies/medication.

Could add a darker component in that the being for whatever reasons has special metahuman dietary requirements.
Manunancy
If you (and your players) don't mind the squick factor, fetus farming ranks very high in the 'do I really want to deliver the guy's doing that to a fresh new lab so he can keep on doing this crap for a new employer' scale. What exactly they're doing with said fetuses and why they can't rely on cloning vats should be justified (in case the player poke around to find).
RHat
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 22 2013, 11:00 AM) *
If you (and your players) don't mind the squick factor, fetus farming ranks very high in the 'do I really want to deliver the guy's doing that to a fresh new lab so he can keep on doing this crap for a new employer' scale. What exactly they're doing with said fetuses and why they can't rely on cloning vats should be justified (in case the player poke around to find).



You can also use whatever they're planning to use them for to amp up the horrific nature of the situation.
Manunancy
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 22 2013, 09:07 PM) *
You can also use whatever they're planning to use them for to amp up the horrific nature of the situation.


I had it in one scenario - basicaly the guys were getting Elven fetal tissues for anti-aging treatment. The busines was handled by organized crime and relied on abducted women to provide the wombs. In vitro fecundation, abortion befoe term to extract the required material, rince and repeat until the woman is too damaged (then it's organ bank). To make them more tractable, the women were lobotomized.

The player's involvment was through the colleteral damage from one abduction : the boyfriend was dispatched and rolled to a bodybank. The players were tasked with finding the boyfriend by a Johnson working for his parents. When they found the corpse, they got further pay to find the who and why of his death, then to perform a bit of extralegal justice. Unsurprisingly, they trashed the place and it's staff loudly enough to make sure the cops and the media would come poking, reasonably confident that the whole business was egregious enough that the cops would be more interested in who was running the place than who trashed it.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 22 2013, 10:13 PM) *
I had it in one scenario - basicaly the guys were getting Elven fetal tissues for anti-aging treatment. The busines was handled by organized crime and relied on abducted women to provide the womb. In vitro fecundation, abortion befoe term to extract teh required material, rince and repeat until the woman is too damaged (then it's organ bank). To make them more tractable, the women were lobotomized.

The player's involvment was trhough th colleteral damage from one baduction : the boyfriend was dispatched and rolled to a bodybank. The players were tasked with finding the boyfriend by a Johnson working for his parents. When they found the corpse, they got further pay to find the who and why of his death, then to perform a bt of extralegal justice. Unsurprisingly, they trashed the place and it's staff loudly enough to make sure the cops and the media would come poking, reasonably confident that the whole business was egregious enough that the cops would be mroe interested in who was running the place than who trashed it.


And run where you get to break out the heavy ordnance on unarmed clerks and sawbones and still look like the good guys is a good run!

I may have to keep this one in mind...
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 22 2013, 09:13 PM) *
I had it in one scenario - basicaly the guys were getting Elven fetal tissues for anti-aging treatment. The busines was handled by organized crime and relied on abducted women to provide the wombs. In vitro fecundation, abortion befoe term to extract the required material, rince and repeat until the woman is too damaged (then it's organ bank). To make them more tractable, the women were lobotomized.

The player's involvment was through the colleteral damage from one abduction : the boyfriend was dispatched and rolled to a bodybank. The players were tasked with finding the boyfriend by a Johnson working for his parents. When they found the corpse, they got further pay to find the who and why of his death, then to perform a bit of extralegal justice. Unsurprisingly, they trashed the place and it's staff loudly enough to make sure the cops and the media would come poking, reasonably confident that the whole business was egregious enough that the cops would be more interested in who was running the place than who trashed it.


Gotta think, Elven fetus's aren't too numerous. I mean it's not like Minotaur or Dryad rare, but in the grand scheme of things they're not thick on the ground. More over, they seem to have a higher percentage of well to do people of that meta-type. Not saying there's no poor elves. Clearly there are but 'in general' they are of generally a higher social strata. So people are going to notice pretty quick when they start disappearing. You're gonna want elf/elf parents to try and maximize having elf fetus. Still not guaranteed. (( To be honest this sort of thing sounds a little high tech and labor intensive for the mob. Not 'Impossible" but more "There's gotta be easier ways to make cash" type))

Maybe a follow up run where they find out that it wasn't really organized crime but instead a Corp that was using an Organized crime front. Follow up raids in other places trying to get to the 'top'.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2013, 04:46 AM) *
Gotta think, Elven fetus's aren't too numerous. I mean it's not like Minotaur or Dryad rare, but in the grand scheme of things they're not thick on the ground. More over, they seem to have a higher percentage of well to do people of that meta-type. Not saying there's no poor elves. Clearly there are but 'in general' they are of generally a higher social strata. So people are going to notice pretty quick when they start disappearing. You're gonna want elf/elf parents to try and maximize having elf fetus. Still not guaranteed. (( To be honest this sort of thing sounds a little high tech and labor intensive for the mob. Not 'Impossible" but more "There's gotta be easier ways to make cash" type))

Maybe a follow up run where they find out that it wasn't really organized crime but instead a Corp that was using an Organized crime front. Follow up raids in other places trying to get to the 'top'.


With in-vitro fecundation, you don't have to get the fathers. As far as 'raw mterial' go, with a place like Tarislar in Seatle, I'd think there is enough of it, though if you need specific genes it may narrow the pool. The whole operation was involving roughly fifty women, netting something like one one or two fetus a week. Comparable in scale with a bunraku parlor. Which makes me think that BTLS coulf also be a way to keep the inmates docile.

The players never knew exactly whi was behind. In my writeupthe idea was anti-aging treatment for a small number of well monyed old croaks, most them involved with organized crime. Having some corpoate types amongst the clients probably help with the coverup.

The facility was somewhat out of the Seattle, amongs the mount Rainier lava flows, a former geothermal plant converted to yeast farming (using the hot water). It also helped with discretion as the yeast culture made sure they didn't ave to get much food in. (And offered one clue as one of the hitmen involved had an habitof carrying raw yeast to fuel his suprathyroïd on the cheap).
Pepsi Jedi
That narrow pool is going to be alot of trouble if you're doing more than first gen trials. One faulty gene and your entire run is scrubbed. You'll want diversity and what not.

Still, either way, there's alot of depth to probe depending on your players and how far down the rabbit hole you wanna go. With all the stuff going down lately in the SR universe, 50 missing elves in one city is going to pop like a serial killer.
Manunancy
Or the work of a white slavers groups - which isn't too far of the mark here. In my opinion the whole deal is likely be be based on some discarded corporate research : with leonization and essence restoration becoming better and more accesible, the potential income isn't great enough to be worth the potential PR damage for a corp. And even a an organized crime project (where PR concerns aren't the same) long-term profitability is bound to be doomed once leonization gets more affordable (not likely to happen as long as the process stays proprietary, and odds are that retirement fund will dislike the notion).

I didn't have the opportunity to GM a followup, but it would probably have involved a corp lab setting some sort of partnership to defray teh cost of an unwholesome project that got axed - not out of moral outrage, but as I said becasue the potential windfall would be more than ofset by a potential for very expensive PR damage. "That project might bring us millions, that's nice. But it's likely to cost billions in PR damage. We might go full black on it, but the payoff isn't high enough to justify it. Dump it"
RHat
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 25 2013, 10:48 PM) *
With all the stuff going down lately in the SR universe, 50 missing elves in one city is going to pop like a serial killer.


Unlikely, especially if the targets are SINless. Hell, that's basically just Tuesday.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 26 2013, 01:44 AM) *
Unlikely, especially if the targets are SINless. Hell, that's basically just Tuesday.


No, not so unlikely. Read up on the Serial copycat in the Dirty tricks. Read up on the Meal Time Killer. Read up on the 'fear the night' killings.

Then add in what I'd pointed out about Elves and 1) The infrequency of that expressed Meta-type. and 2) The general social strata that most elves seem to hail from.

I.E. they're uncommon and the ones you run into tend to be middle class or upper class. Not sinless noone's living off the street. Sure, there are some sinless elves living in the slums, but there out numbered many times by humans and out numbered by Orcs. Likely out numbered by Trolls too in the lower social strata. (( Not that there's more trolls than elves, but there's more POOR trolls than POOR elves.))

Now this is just generalization. There's exception to every rule. Just note that it'll be the exception. So yes, if 50 elf women suddenly dissapear you gotta figure 40 of them are going to be middle class or higher. It's going to trigger a big blip on the radar. "Elven Hunter" is going to be all over the trid. Some of those elven families are going to have money and are going to spend it, either legit, PI's, and Private security to get their daughters back, or... runners.

It even comes out in one of the books. (( I can't for the life of me remember which one, but someone else might remember better than me)) That many prostitutes are Orcs. Not Elves. I think someone points out that it's not like porn. That street walkers don't come from high society. (( Those are "Escorts")) and that you find many many times more orc hookers than pretty elves, because there's just not that many pretty elves in the slums.
RHat
You forget that for a project like this that they'd specifically target people that wouldn't be missed.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 26 2013, 02:42 AM) *
You forget that for a project like this that they'd specifically target people that wouldn't be missed.


And I'm pointing out that elves can, but don't often, fall into that catagory. Even then you scoop up more than 5 and people are going to be talking. Elves stand out. They draw people to them. People miss them when they're suddenly gone.

Are there SOME elves in the barrens etc? SURE. I'm --SURE-- there are. but they're not a dime a dozen and if you take more than a few, word's gonna get out REAL fast someone's taking elves left right and center. They are not in the top 2 Metatypes. Humans, Orks, are the most prevelient. Then Elves dwarves and Trolls. Elves are less than..... I wanna say 7% of the population total. (( Can't find it in the book but I think that's right)) So less than 1 in ten people is an elf. Add in the 'type' of person your looking for, add in how many 'more' of those type of people are Humans, orcs and trolls, and you're looking at a 1 in 20, 1 in 50 if not more break down of Elves to other metatype in the slums. You start picking off more than two or three of that pretty rare type of person and it's going to stand out like crazy.
RHat
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2013, 01:01 AM) *
And I'm pointing out that elves can, but don't often, fall into that catagory. Even then you scoop up more than 5 and people are going to be talking. Elves stand out. They draw people to them. People miss them when they're suddenly gone.


Sorry, should have specified: SINless don't count. Because even if someone does miss them, no one who'd be in a position to do anything about it would give a shit.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 26 2013, 04:13 AM) *
Sorry, should have specified: SINless don't count. Because even if someone does miss them, no one who'd be in a position to do anything about it would give a shit.


You're missing the point where there just aren't enough of them (Poor, sinless Elves of one specific gender) that 50 suddenly disappearing from one city wouldn't cause people to freak out.

I don't have exact numbers on all the Metahuman races. (( I've looked for a bit and couldn't find them all. ))

Runner's companion puts Humans at 68% of the Metahuman population. That leaves 32%. They classify "other" sapients at 2% world wide. That takes us down to 30%. SURGE are 1% so that takes us to 29% It's said that Orcs are by far the second highest in percentage of Metahumanity. One place I read said 25% but it wasn't in a book and that seems high to me. But if we put it at 15% that leaves 14% for Elves, Dwarves and Trolls. They say Trolls are by far the smallest percentage, so we give them 3% so that leaves 11 percent For Elves and Dwarves. The book says Elves are the third in rankings for Metatype so we give them the extra at 6% and dwarves at 5%

So it'd break down (Roughly!!))
Humans 68%
Orcs 15%
Elves 6%
Dwarves 5%
Trolls 3%
"Others" 2%
SURGE 1%

Now this is largely based on Orcs having that higher percent in the rankings. It could be a bit more or a bit less but this break down looks pretty good. Less Orcs and they wouldn't be hands down second and above elves and dwarves.

So you're looking atr 6 to 7 percent of the global population being Elves. You take out The 'elven' nations as spikes on the curve.

So in any one 'normal' part of the globe. 6 people out of 100 are Elves. Even not factoring in social and economical factors, which very are much factored in... You're looking at 6 out of 100 people being elves. Then you need FEMALE elves. So 3 out of 100 people, that might be targets. Assuming you grab every one you see, you'd need to weed through 1,666 people to get your 'breeders' and that's if you took ---every--- female elf they had. That's ignoring the fact that more elves are middle class and upper class than are lower.

you're telling me that you could gank that many elves and noone would notice? That it wouldn't make the news that a serial killer/abductor had just gone through and taken ALL the elves hidden amongst the wretched masses to the point you would have to surround them with 1666 other people, just to get your 50, and that would be abducting every elf with a vigina you could find among them. Doing this all among the gangs and stuff. It's not like they'll just willingly get into your van for candy. You're going to have to abduct them. How many "Single" Elves do you foresee living alone in cirumstances like that? They ARE the beautiful people. They're going to live with friends or family who are going to pick up the same guns that they take with them when going to the Stuffer Shack, to blow your head off when you try and snatch um.

Can it be done? Sure. Of course it can. Can you go through a population and abduct that sort of percentage and noone notice? Not likely. It'd be like going through south Central and suddenly abducting all the red headed women.

Some One's gonna notice that, and it's not going to be when you hit 49 or 50.. It's gonna be when you hit 3 or 4.
RHat
The population of Seattle is listed as "3 000 000+" in Seattle 2072. 13% of that is made up of elves. And given the lack of a proper SINless census, that's going to be a large underestimation. So, let's round the number off at 400 000. 50 people out of 400 000.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 26 2013, 05:08 AM) *
The population of Seattle is listed as "3 000 000+" in Seattle 2072. 13% of that is made up of elves. And given the lack of a proper SINless census, that's going to be a large underestimation. So, let's round the number off at 400 000. 50 people out of 400 000.


That same page also claims that there's 300,000 SURGEd people in Seattle, 10 times the average.

Again, there's not going to be tons and tons of Sinless Elves, but even then, how many victims before Serial killers or Kidnappers make the news? Two.. three? In a dark world like Shadowrun. Five, Ten? 400,000 is roughly the size of Cleavland or Tulsa these days. You're telling me that 50 people could dissapear in a population that size, all of one 'type', all one gender, etc and noone would notice? It wouldn't make national news?

Yeah the numbers are inflated due to where Seattle is and what not. 3 million is alot of people and yeah it's easy to get lost in a sea of metahumanity that big. Still if you start snagging all the female elves off the streets, people are gonna know pretty quick. They stand out, and it'll stand out when they're targeted.
RHat
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2013, 02:14 PM) *
That same page also claims that there's 300,000 SURGEd people in Seattle, 10 times the average.

Again, there's not going to be tons and tons of Sinless Elves, but even then, how many victims before Serial killers or Kidnappers make the news? Two.. three? In a dark world like Shadowrun. Five, Ten? 400,000 is roughly the size of Cleavland or Tulsa these days. You're telling me that 50 people could dissapear in a population that size, all of one 'type', all one gender, etc and noone would notice? It wouldn't make national news?

Yeah the numbers are inflated due to where Seattle is and what not. 3 million is alot of people and yeah it's easy to get lost in a sea of metahumanity that big. Still if you start snagging all the female elves off the streets, people are gonna know pretty quick. They stand out, and it'll stand out when they're targeted.


50 people who don't officially exist, and thus who the media at large won't bother reporting on, Knight Errant won't bother investigating into any single case of... It's not that no one would notice - it's that no one in a position to do anything about it would both notice and care; the SINless just don't matter.

Of course, this also makes for a good way to bring the runners in, especially if any character is something of an investigator. Nothing will get done through official channels, so someone in the community asks for some help.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (RHat @ Mar 26 2013, 07:49 PM) *
50 people who don't officially exist, and thus who the media at large won't bother reporting on, Knight Errant won't bother investigating into any single case of... It's not that no one would notice - it's that no one in a position to do anything about it would both notice and care; the SINless just don't matter.

Of course, this also makes for a good way to bring the runners in, especially if any character is something of an investigator. Nothing will get done through official channels, so someone in the community asks for some help.


I'm saying that if 5, 10, 20... 30.... 40.... 50 female elves just up and utterly dissapear, the media WILL report on it. Just look at how few victims it takes for a serial killer to make the news. Then look at the SR universe and see that they not only make the news, but inspire copycats, in multiple publications. The killer that killed Bulls Daughter was a copycat. (Granted, hired, but still)) The Mealtime Killer spread to multiple cities etc.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect. Sinless don't pay taxes and what not but it's not like Knight Errant will just step over the corpse on the way to get coffee. If nothing else, someone preying on dozens and dozens of female elves, will have the elf population up at arms. Many of which are very well off and don't wanna be the killer/abductor's next victim.

*shrugs* Your game may vary. More serial killers or 50 female elves all disappearing not raise any flags.
RHat
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2013, 06:22 PM) *
I think there's a bit of a disconnect. Sinless don't pay taxes and what not but it's not like Knight Errant will just step over the corpse on the way to get coffee.


Largely because they're not even in the same area in the first place. KE's not going to go out to the Barrens without a reason in the first place, and the SINless have no means of getting any sort of living space outside of the Barrens.
Manunancy
Abduction isn't the only way to get the gals - bogus job offers and the like let you draw from a wider pool. Prostitution rings do it all the time. Ad some faked mail or the like to slow down mom and dad noticing their girl slippedo ff the radar and you can get away with a lot.

Also I think you're overstatting the average elf's social status. What's the middle class and above in the 2070s ? I'd say 20, 25% percent of the population. Even if they're better off, it would leave two third of the elves lower than middle class. There's stil la significant number of minimum-wage earners and SINless to draw from.

I grant you that getting everyoen through abduction is on the noticeable side, so some diversity here would be nice. But if several Bunraku parlors manage to get their 'staff' without troubles, odds are these peoples could manage it too.
Rubic
You're also ignoring one of the most densely-populated elven areas: the Tir. Criminals aren't against crossing international boundaries to try to muddy their trails in criminal investigation, and not all of the Elves have to be kidnapped from Seattle. How many might be African, Chinese, Russian, etc.? If any were taken from Tir, it sets up a more desperate political situation where politicians would be wanting to stave off potential acts of war, and glossing over certain activities in the interest of either eliminating the evidence or solving and punishing the crime. The victims, as well, may be too broken to recover, or may wish to die (and the players may never know it; it could be a mind-hack failsafe to kill off escapees and destroy evidence). It's too narrow-minded to think that Seattle is the ONLY place in the world with elves, or that foreign interests WON'T be poking around and making life difficult.

Edit:
I just realized, it's also possible that the criminal organization that's harvesting "elf fetuses" might also be harvesting a fair amount of "counterfeits," either vat-grown clones (regardless of metatype), other metatypes they were able to get their hands on to supplement supply, and even animals to do the same. If they're already criminals, what's to stop them from lying to the people they're supplying (if the dupes are too stupid or simply unable to confirm the quality of the goods). It makes for a good complication (convenient kidnappings muddying the Serial Killer/Abductor angle), and each link in the supply chain could be separately working it's own angle. Just food for thought.
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