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Vadth the Bluelock
I though of this during a game I was running and I wasn't sure how to resolve it. Lets say a team is connected on a LAN and the mage goes dual natured. The team comes across an enemy that is invisible. Now....

1. Can the mage put an outline of the enemy on his teammates' AR so they know exactly where to shoot? If yes, can he update it in real-time?
2. What would the teammates' dice pool be to hit the invisible target?
3. Would it be any difference if it was just someone who could see through the invisible instead of the dual natured mage?
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Vadth the Bluelock @ Mar 29 2013, 09:14 PM) *
1. Can the mage put an outline of the enemy on his teammates' AR so they know exactly where to shoot? If yes, can he update it in real-time?
2. What would the teammates' dice pool be to hit the invisible target?
3. Would it be any difference if it was just someone who could see through the invisible instead of the dual natured mage?

1. No...probably... Mages can't use AR while astrally perceiving. Maybe give the mage a laser pointer and point at the ground of the target...? That might work...? But of course at that point, I wonder why you just don't have the mage shoot the target with a spell.
2. -6 for blind fighting, and using intuition instead of agility. Or other characters can switch their vision to thermal or something.
3. Yes? You mean if someone was using a different vision mode or resisted the invisibility spell? Then yes? That is kind of different from having a made astrally perceive? I'm not sure if I understood that question correctly.
Vadth the Bluelock
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 29 2013, 03:43 PM) *
1. No...probably... Mages can't use AR while astrally perceiving. Maybe give the mage a laser pointer and point at the ground of the target...? That might work...? But of course at that point, I wonder why you just don't have the mage shoot the target with a spell.
2. -6 for blind fighting, and using intuition instead of agility. Or other characters can switch their vision to thermal or something.
3. Yes? You mean if someone was using a different vision mode or resisted the invisibility spell? Then yes? That is kind of different from having a made astrally perceive? I'm not sure if I understood their question correctly.


1. His AR should still be running as well as his connection to the LAN. He can't see his AR display but he should still be able to issue mental commands.
2. If the team has an AR outline of the target, why would they have the same dice pool to as someone who thinks they heard something and shoots.
3. I mean if someone resisted the spell, could they create an outline of the target on his team AR display.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (Vadth the Bluelock @ Mar 29 2013, 10:22 PM) *
1. His AR should still be running as well as his connection to the LAN. He can't see his AR display but he should still be able to issue mental commands.
2. If the team has an AR outline of the target, why would they have the same dice pool to as someone who thinks they heard something and shoots.
3. I mean if someone resisted the spell, could they create an outline of the target on his team AR display.

1. I don't think so. Even if the mage had trodes, so they could use the matrix with a thought, I would assume that the mages image linked camera still can't target an invisible target.
2. I don't know if they'd get that outline is the thing. But assuming if they did somehow, I'd probably use the vision modifiers, something like fighting with thermo in total darkness, so a -3, but that's only a guess since I don't think the AR outline is going to be making an invisible target all that clear to see.
3. Good question... the answer is maybe...? I guess this gets to the question of how improve invisibility works. If the target has light bending around them, and someone resists does that mean light stops bending for the target? That doesn't make sense, so odds are the person that resisted probably just noticed footprints or some kind of vision distortion while the others didn't. But that doesn't make sense either, because as soon at a character resisted the spell, they'd be able to point out the tells of the invisible character and everyone would know at that point. But the rules don't really support that... I'm going to lean a bit towards no...because there are already ways to counter invisibility and it seems to cheese the spell a bit to counter the caster completely with just one person resisting it.
Falconer
He can issue mental commands, but he can't see a thing on his AR display. So he doesn't know what he's entering... short of telling a smartgun to eject a clip with a mental command and other simple actions. He might as well not have AR/DNI.

More to the point you hand him a laser pointer... and he can't see the dot. Astral perception doesn't work on 'light'. It works on 'life lighting'. Similarly... the mage could fire a pistol or gun at the target at a -2 penalty for astrally percieving while performing a physical attack/action. (with no bonuses from laser sights or smartlinks since he can't see either).


1. No he can't
2. -6 for invisible target. *IF* you had something like a recon drone with UWB or ultrasound... you could use the 'info-guided' attacks in Arsenal. But the mage cannot provide this information... tech does not interface with astral perception at all. Not only this, since you are firing blind you use Intution + weapon instead of Agility + weapon.
3. If they see through the illusion they attack normally.

Everyone should get a good chance to resist the invisibility spell automatically.
Improved invisibility works on drones only if it beats the OR of the drone when cast.
Invisibility (mana not physical/improved) doesn't work on cameras or drones at all.
And living targets resist the spell with willpower (mana) or intution (physical) + counterspelling (if your mage isn't providing allies counterspelling they got bigger issues).
If they get as many successes as the spellcaster they see through the invisibility.


Also... why isn't your mage just dispelling the other guys invisibility spell?! Or nuke the target with a combat spell instead?

Mage uses a complex action to dispel magic... rolls Magic + counterspelling... reduce the number of successes of the initial casting by the dispelling successes. Mage resists drain as if he had cast the invisibility himself. People resist the spell at the reduced hits though and probably see right through it.
phlapjack77
For 1:
I think in this situation, if the team had a tacnet going, the mage with trodes MIGHT be able to send some kind of location data over the AR/tacnet to give some kind of benefit, but this is definitely in house rule territory. I would think only rough information like the feed of where your natural vision is focused, and the message "he's there behind the boxes".

Another idea is if the mage has the Edit program, he could make an Edit complex action to try to edit an AR feed to draw a crude picture of where the invisible guy is. Still wouldn't be as good as if the rest of the team could see the invisible target, but maybe some kind of benefit could be had.

As others have said, all in all the mage seems like he'd be better served either directly attacking the invisible target or attempting to do something about the invisibility with counterspelling.
Vadth the Bluelock
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 29 2013, 09:28 PM) *
For 1:
I think in this situation, if the team had a tacnet going, the mage with trodes MIGHT be able to send some kind of location data over the AR/tacnet to give some kind of benefit, but this is definitely in house rule territory. I would think only rough information like the feed of where your natural vision is focused, and the message "he's there behind the boxes".

Another idea is if the mage has the Edit program, he could make an Edit complex action to try to edit an AR feed to draw a crude picture of where the invisible guy is. Still wouldn't be as good as if the rest of the team could see the invisible target, but maybe some kind of benefit could be had.

As others have said, all in all the mage seems like he'd be better served either directly attacking the invisible target or attempting to do something about the invisibility with counterspelling.


These are the rules I was looking for. In particular the Edit complex action. I figure there had to be a way for a mage to do this but it turns out to much harder than I thought. As for why not have the mage just attack, 1 I didn't know you could use counterspell in that way. 2 in my example the mage in question got fubar earlier in the round and realize his up against a much stronger mage. Someone he doubt he could affect if he was healthy, much less now that he is injured. He also had one initiative pass as oppose to his buddy with the big gun whom had three. Lastly he didn't have much in combat spells.
_Pax._
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 29 2013, 04:43 PM) *
1. No...probably... Mages can't use AR while astrally perceiving.

But they can subvocalise commands to their commlink to highlight a particular location. Or touch-type a text message of those commands.
phlapjack77
Ok, so it looks like counterspelling might be the mage's best option.

As for attacking, it doesn't have to be spells in particular. I guess the mage isn't that good with a gun? smile.gif Also, does the mage have summoning? A spirit could also astrally see the target and would be more of a threat, plus if it's materialized it might be able to help the others see where the invisible guy is.

Does the mage have any other "technological" vision additions? Thermo? UWB? X-Ray? Invisibility would only work against normal vision. If he had, say, thermographic glasses, he could feed that to his teammates, I would think.

These last ideas need for the GM to be sort of willing to play along:

Does the mage have anything like water or something with gecko tape? Throw it on the invisible guy, it sticks to him, gives the location away. Any non-combat spells that might have a similar result like this?
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 30 2013, 05:40 AM) *
But they can subvocalise commands to their commlink to highlight a particular location. Or touch-type a text message of those commands.

Yes...but what's the mage going to say? "Shoot at the box!" So the street sam shoots in the direction of the box. It's still going to be a blind shot...
_Pax._
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Mar 30 2013, 01:57 AM) *
Yes...but what's the mage going to say? "Shoot at the box!" So the street sam shoots in the direction of the box. It's still going to be a blind shot...

"mark Alpha, six-zero at seven plus two"

And his commlink puts a flashing red 1m sphere on the TacNet's AR display, seven meters away and two meters up, sixty degrees to the right of the mage's facing.

Next IP, "mark Alpha, zero at six plus five"

And the commlink reduces the first sphere to 0.5M diameter, not flashing, and orange ... draws a line to the new location, and pops a flashing red 1m sphere six meters out and five meters up from wherever the mage is facing.

...

Perfect? No. Might require a roll or two fo the mage to estimate bearings and distances? Yes.

Still damned useful? Hell yes. smile.gif Especially after a couple of those marks have been put up, and the rest of the team (and their TacNet) can start working on predicting the enemy's NEXT move.
Vadth the Bluelock
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 29 2013, 11:43 PM) *
Ok, so it looks like counterspelling might be the mage's best option.


I just looked up the counterspelling rules, that's very unlikely to work. In my example the mage had 5 dice and would be against a dice pool of 10-12.

QUOTE
As for attacking, it doesn't have to be spells in particular. I guess the mage isn't that good with a gun? smile.gif Also, does the mage have summoning? A spirit could also astrally see the target and would be more of a threat, plus if it's materialized it might be able to help the others see where the invisible guy is.

Does the mage have any other "technological" vision additions? Thermo? UWB? X-Ray? Invisibility would only work against normal vision. If he had, say, thermographic glasses, he could feed that to his teammates, I would think.

These last ideas need for the GM to be sort of willing to play along:

Does the mage have anything like water or something with gecko tape? Throw it on the invisible guy, it sticks to him, gives the location away. Any non-combat spells that might have a similar result like this?


Just to be clear, in the game where I thought this up I was the GM and I was running a module. Given who the mage was, I would think the answer to many of those questions should be yes but the adventure was very light on his gear. He did have a gun but the only way for him to see the player mage was to be astrally perceiving. So his dice pool would have been 1.

I have gone beyond what happen in my game to trying to figure out how to get this to work in the rules.
Falconer
Pax:
Which is exactly my point... the mage can't see his own AR display to know if he even marked the target properly.

That's why 'editing' a map is drawing like a blind monkey in the middle of combat. The mage can't see what he's doing in AR... so is operating just as blindly as the rest of his team.

Mages shift their entire perception to the astral when they do so... and blind their normal senses. That's the drawback compared to 'dual-natured' critter power... the advantage is you can turn it off.


Phlapjack:
No... invisibility blocks all natural forms of vision... low-light, normal, and thermo. This is stated directly in the spell description.

You need a radar, or UWB radar, or ultrasound sonar to penetrate the invisibility. (all things which any half decent sam should be packing! and are also fairly commonly added to drones as part of their sensor suite).

You also don't need a tacnet for an info guided attack. p162 arsenal... just need a guy with the relevant sensor and others with smartguns.


OP:
If I were the mage in that situation... I'd do two things... first I'd dispel the other mages 'increase reflexes'. If he only has 3 passes if I get 2 successes on the test... the other mage immediately also drops to only a single pass (initiative rules... losses take effect immediately. Gains don't take affect til the next combat turn after it's cast). This protects me and the rest of my team from the mages immediate displeasure and counter-attack if he's acted already (likely if he's under increase ref and you aren't).

Then I'd spend edge for an extra pass... and dispel the invisibility. Now with the rest of the team probably able to see the now out of actions mage... it should be a simple exercise in 'geek the mage 101'.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 30 2013, 09:45 PM) *
Pax:
Which is exactly my point... the mage can't see his own AR display to know if he even marked the target properly.

He doesn't really have to. Sure, the threshold may be higher than if he could, but ... *shrug* ...
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Mar 31 2013, 03:18 AM) *
He doesn't really have to. Sure, the threshold may be higher than if he could, but ... *shrug* ...

I don't know if you've ever drawn without looking at your paper...but its very difficult... And that's basically what the mage would be doing. Only harder because he's working with 3D space...
_Pax._
It's not drawing. It's SPEAKING (quietly) to a voice-controlled system.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Falconer @ Mar 31 2013, 10:45 AM) *
Phlapjack:
No... invisibility blocks all natural forms of vision... low-light, normal, and thermo. This is stated directly in the spell description.

You need a radar, or UWB radar, or ultrasound sonar to penetrate the invisibility. (all things which any half decent sam should be packing! and are also fairly commonly added to drones as part of their sensor suite).

You also don't need a tacnet for an info guided attack. p162 arsenal... just need a guy with the relevant sensor and others with smartguns.

Yeah, I had been thinking that thermo on glasses would count as a technological sensor and thus not be affected by invisibility. But reading the spell more, I probably would agree with you - anyone that's affected by the spell can't visually see the target, period.

Good find on the indirect targetting. Still probably not usable for this situation, but overall good to know.
Tanegar
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Mar 29 2013, 10:28 PM) *
Another idea is if the mage has the Edit program, he could make an Edit complex action to try to edit an AR feed to draw a crude picture of where the invisible guy is. Still wouldn't be as good as if the rest of the team could see the invisible target, but maybe some kind of benefit could be had.

After giving it some thought, I think this is probably a good way to handle it.
1) The mage makes an Edit complex action to mark an invisible target on the team's AR tacnet feed. Note the number of hits on this test (for the sake of demonstration, we'll say 3).
2) The shooter then makes his attack roll, applying the Blind Fire penalty (-6), and applying the number of hits from the mage's Edit action as a positive modifier (+3). Note that this attack cannot benefit from a smartlink bonus unless the gun has been explicitly modified with sensors which defeat invisibility; and cannot benefit from the normal tacnet bonus unless all contributors are likewise equipped with sensors which defeat invisibility. If that's the case, however, all of this is moot, as you don't need the Edit action to begin with. nyahnyah.gif

All in all, this is the kind of thing that's vastly more useful as an ambush tool than in a stand-up fight. Invisible mage thinks he's safe from snipers... until an assensing spotter marks him for a sniper, who then blows his head off.
DMiller
I think what I'd do in this situation, assuming the mage isn't going to use magic to counter magic is to have the mage make a Computer + Intuition (2) test with a -2 for doing so while using Astral Perception (simple action, use skill). Then I'd use the net hits from that test to reduce the Blind Fire (-6) modifier for the rest of the team. Of course that is assuming that the team is using TACNET.

Just my 2¥
DeathStrobe
Why wouldn't the mage get a -6 for doing a Matrix action while blind to the Matrix?

While I can agree that the mage can input things in to the Matrix, he'll have no idea what he's doing or if he's doing it right, which sounds kind of like a blind fight, just with the Matrix.
Shaidar
A TacNet is a definite must for this IMO, a straight AR network is not suited to making sense of this kind of in-depth tactical information.

I like DMiller's approach of applying the Blind Fire modifier (-6) and then partially, or fully if the dice throw well, negating the over-all modifier for his teammates.
DMiller
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Apr 1 2013, 12:25 PM) *
Why wouldn't the mage get a -6 for doing a Matrix action while blind to the Matrix?

While I can agree that the mage can input things in to the Matrix, he'll have no idea what he's doing or if he's doing it right, which sounds kind of like a blind fight, just with the Matrix.

Astral Perception makes your AR blind; however it only imposes a -2 to physical actions. So if the Mage is perceiving astrally, he should be able to tell where his face is pointed and using mental commands through his PAN issue instructions to draw a rough circle, sphere or box around the person he knows is there.

Think of it this way… If I were to put on someone else's glasses I could no longer see in detail (imposing a -2 to physical actions). I’ll bet that I could still hold my tablet up with the camera on and draw a rough circle around someone that I know is standing in front of me. In ShadowRun this circle drawing becomes easier with DNI. I know that Astral Perception isn't exactly like wearing someone else's glasses but in my opinion it's a close enough analogy for this situation.
DeathStrobe
QUOTE (DMiller @ Apr 1 2013, 07:01 AM) *
Astral Perception makes your AR blind; however it only imposes a -2 to physical actions. So if the Mage is perceiving astrally, he should be able to tell where his face is pointed and using mental commands through his PAN issue instructions to draw a rough circle, sphere or box around the person he knows is there.

Think of it this way… If I were to put on someone else's glasses I could no longer see in detail (imposing a -2 to physical actions). I’ll bet that I could still hold my tablet up with the camera on and draw a rough circle around someone that I know is standing in front of me. In ShadowRun this circle drawing becomes easier with DNI. I know that Astral Perception isn't exactly like wearing someone else's glasses but in my opinion it's a close enough analogy for this situation.

Yes, -2 to physical actions. The Matrix isn't a physical action. When you are in full VR and try to act in meat space you get a -6 to all tests. Why would it work that a mage would only get a -2 to Matrix actions if they can't even perceive the Matrix actions? And how are you going to draw something on your tablet that your tablet can't even see. The computer program can't help assist you because the program isn't seeing what you are seeing. And how is the program suppose to gage depth on this target that it can't see? There is no way it can give an accuracy bonus without the mage blinding himself to the astral to see the AR, or blinding himself to the Matrix to see the invisible target.
DMiller
QUOTE (DeathStrobe @ Apr 1 2013, 05:08 PM) *
Yes, -2 to physical actions. The Matrix isn't a physical action. When you are in full VR and try to act in meat space you get a -6 to all tests. Why would it work that a mage would only get a -2 to Matrix actions if they can't even perceive the Matrix actions? And how are you going to draw something on your tablet that your tablet can't even see. The computer program can't help assist you because the program isn't seeing what you are seeing. And how is the program suppose to gage depth on this target that it can't see? There is no way it can give an accuracy bonus without the mage blinding himself to the astral to see the AR, or blinding himself to the Matrix to see the invisible target.

I guess we are just of differing opinions of what is possible. Both can be valid arguments and without hard rules (or living it) there is no way to be sure which interpretation is correct. Both provide options for the original post.
Starmage21
Wasnt there something in the corebook about one of the things that hackers can do is maintain AROs in the team's AR interfaces thus giving the team an init boost? As long as the mage is not astrally projecting, astrally perception gives that -2 dice pool, but his eyes dont stop working. He could see and use AR just fine especially if he's using glasses for the AR display. Nothing would stop him from spending whatever action it takes to update the location of invisi-guy's ARO. This would tell the rest of the team his approximate location and give them the chance to make that -6 blind-fight AND a chance to resist the invisibility spell.
Falconer
A lot of people need to re-read the astral chapter in magic.

While astrally perceiving a mage completely shifts his perception to the astral. A mage CANNOT perceive AR while astrally perceiving or projecting. Critters with the 'dual-natured' powers are the one which experience both at the same time without penalty, but they can't turn off astral perception at will either leaving them always open to astral attack! The mage doesn't simply use AR at a -2 penalty, he's blind to AR (and again can't use AR aiming aids like smartguns or laser sights while astrally perceiving).

So no, a mage who is astrally perceiving gains no benefits whatsoever from a tacnet, or any other AR enhancement. His sight and hearing are completely shifted to the astral plane. His ability to meaningfully interact with it is also quite questionable since he's drawing blind.


In the example given... the best the mage can do is use a 'free action' to communicate with teammates with short message "There's someone invisible behind the box in the center of the room". You don't vocally control an edit program... especially one you can't even see the interface on!!! (giving verbal orders to programs is the realm of "Pilot" programs and subject to a dice roll if the doggy brain agent/pilot even understands the orders. And other party members are far more likely to understand a quick voice or text message... than a pilot program is.

Falconer
p191 SR4a
"It takes a Simple Action to shift one's perception from the astral to the physical, and another to shift it back again (it is not possible to see both at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail)."
DMiller
Hmm, I really don't want to argue the finer points of perception and operating blind, but here is a drawing blind test for you…

Take a picture (out of a book or magazine or some other source), place it face up on the table in front of you. Take a piece of construction paper and place it on the picture. Now draw a rough circle around the main subject of the picture. I'll bet you get really close to accurate even though you were blind to the picture when you drew the circle.

Now let’s take this a step further. Fire up your tablet and turn on the camera, set the color on the screen so that the entire picture looks black, hold the tablet between you and a friend so that it is directly in your line of sight, now draw a rough circle around your friend. Now without moving the tablet, change the color back to normal. Again I bet you're really close.

With DNI and goggles all of this becomes even easier. So the -2 to an INT + Computer (2) test seems quite adequate for this test in my opinion, even if the mage is blind to detailed information on his surroundings. I do agree that he can not see AR, but he can still interact with technology. He knows where the display is, the system can track his eye movements, his brain has not stopped functioning, his direct neural interface is still operational. There is no reason this shouldn't work. However since the rules do not spell it out it is up to interpretation as to how to proceed.

Another option might be the Mage uses free (or longer) actions and describes where the target is verbally and the team uses basic information guided attacks. I don’t have access to my books right now, but as a GM using this route (without bogging things down to look up the actual rules on info guided attacks) I'd have the mage roll a Leadership + INT (2) test and the net hits would reduce the Blind Fire modifier, or I would use the option I mentioned above. I would leave it up to the mage how to proceed.
Falconer
Really and exactly where is the AR drawing window.... in your field of view. Oh now you're intentionally holding an actual AR pad... instead of a gun. How convenient. One which provides you convenient visual cues even if you can't see what's on the pad. Oh and do all this in under a second!!!

Sorry I object strenuously to this... the rules are intentionally designed to be incompatible. Even to the point that simsense cannot tell what a mage is seeing through assensing. (There exists no technological means to record assensing data and feed it to others, like you can use a sim rig to record a persons first person view and feelings and transmit them to others to experience).


There are well defined rules for interfacing ACTUAL electronic sensors to make info-guided attacks. They require the spotter to sacrifice his attack to intentionally do a full fledged active sensor lock-on (that is for most all purposes identical to the rules that drone use for active target locks)... then share that technological lock with other peoples smartguns (automatically as part of that complex action).

I'm all for tech operating with tech. Even to the point of the mage alerting the rigger/street sam that there is a target to perforate (since these two archetypes normally pack the sensors that see right through invis spells).

But most of the house rule suggestions... especially the computer + intuition without any penalty... are complete bunk and superior to the actual tech. Intuition is a commonly pumped stat on mages (and is the single best drain stat provided you're ready to boost it magically). Why because assensing, perception, astral combat defense, initiative, and astral initiative all key off of it. It also resists physical illusions like improved invisibility in the first place.

And most of it again reflects trying to do something the rules discourage.. for no good reason. It's not enough for the mage to simply say he's behind the box then people to take the -6 blindfire penalty with a reasonable idea where the target is (perfect case for a spray and pray wide burst attack). As I pointed out earlier in the thread the mage has no shortage of other options to function as the 'magic against magic' so the rest of the team can bring steel to bear and see the target directly without trying to tie the AR/assensing rules into a knot.
_Pax._
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 2 2013, 12:49 AM) *
Really and exactly where is the AR drawing window.... in your field of view. Oh now you're intentionally holding an actual AR pad... instead of a gun. How convenient. One which provides you convenient visual cues even if you can't see what's on the pad. Oh and do all this in under a second!!!

Voice. Command.

The effort on the part of the Mage is no mroe than her shouting "guys, invisible dude over by the big tree!" and pointing her hand/arm that way - it's just, instead of shouting, instead of using landmarks, and instead of pointing physically ... you're using a quick verbal shorthand, that some software is interpreting in order to .... well, point and shout, in it's own way.

...

It shouldn't be impossible.

If there's no rolls involved, it should be as effective as pointing and telling the others "there's an invisible dude over there".

If there's rolls involved, then it should be potentially MORE accurate, as well as potentially less-accurate, than said point-and-say.
phlapjack77
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 2 2013, 12:49 PM) *
But most of the house rule suggestions... especially the computer + intuition without any penalty... are complete bunk and superior to the actual tech. Intuition is a commonly pumped stat on mages (and is the single best drain stat provided you're ready to boost it magically). Why because assensing, perception, astral combat defense, initiative, and astral initiative all key off of it. It also resists physical illusions like improved invisibility in the first place.

And most of it again reflects trying to do something the rules discourage.. for no good reason. It's not enough for the mage to simply say he's behind the box then people to take the -6 blindfire penalty with a reasonable idea where the target is (perfect case for a spray and pray wide burst attack). As I pointed out earlier in the thread the mage has no shortage of other options to function as the 'magic against magic' so the rest of the team can bring steel to bear and see the target directly without trying to tie the AR/assensing rules into a knot.

Everyone agrees we're talking house rules, which is good smile.gif

So, I say that a GM should be more permissive rather than less permissive. You should reward players for creative thinking instead of constantly shutting them down. Try to find ways to say "Yes" instead of "No".

This type of mage/sam interaction is already present in the game, in the form of teamwork tests. People are trying to find ways to make a sort of teamwork test in this situation. It doesn't break the game to let someone roll Int+Computer for a teamwork test. The bonus dice would be like what, 3 at most? 1 extra hit for the sam? And that's with a pretty good roll. If you feel that has the potential to get too high, cap the hits with Computer or something. Find ways to say yes to the players ideas.

The mage is using their whole action round instead of doing something else. There should be a tangible benefit, because otherwise they can use a free action to say "he's over there" and the sam gets the -6 and shoots. It might not be the best use of the mage's actions, but that's not really for you or the GM to decide. The player wants to try it, fuck, let them try it within some limits. The limits that others (and I smile.gif) have stated seem like a really good start.

And ultimately, I think everyone agrees this isn't some crazy game-breaking killer combo. "Tieing the rules in knots" is secondary to having fun.
Falconer
Actually phlapjack... I enjoy working within the straitjacket confines of the rules... because it's like a difficulty slider. Things become too easy. Also if you haven't figured it out... I operate as a GM-side rules lawyer on the forums, playing devil's advocate more often than not. (the vast majority of rules lawyers tend to focus on the most permissive possible reading of the rules I notice... not trying to turn it on it's head and figure how a GM can read them restrictively instead without house ruling to limit abuses).

For example... look at Pax's stock answer... voice commands.... It's unrealistic to draw the room in a second or less that reflects a normal single initiative pass. So look at the next closest thing... issuing a command to a drone or agent to do it for you.

An agent has no ability whatsoever to interact with things outside the matrix nor even understand them. Agent's don't even get Electronic Warfare skill abilities to find other nodes, traffic, and encryption. Drone pilots have those abilities, but if they can do it they can spot and provide active targetting information as per the normal rules. (sensor + clearsight + sensor vision mods just like normal for active targetting, only done as a complex action instead of a simple when it does an active target lock for itself).

You issue an agent/drone a command for something it is not normally programmed to do... and you're supposed to roll to check if the pilot even understands the command at all.

You're talking about doing this to

It's a complex action to work a piece of software like edit. It's a simple action to swift perception back to the physical. So you can't quite pull both off in the same action.
phlapjack77
I do agree with you that Pax's idea seems a little TOO beneficial and specific. To permit it as a GM, I'd need some really really good reasons to allow it, like the character having a (non-meta-gamey) background reason to know how to do something like this. But the other ideas seem fine (roughly, using DNI to Edit/Computer an AR feed to teammates, must have tacnet, teamwork-test bonuses).

I guess it all comes down to play style. Strictly by a rules-lawyer interpretation, this probably isn't possible. From a "this is plausible, and really, why not?" perspective though? Totally possible.
DMiller
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 2 2013, 01:49 PM) *
Really and exactly where is the AR drawing window.... in your field of view. Oh now you're intentionally holding an actual AR pad... instead of a gun. How convenient. One which provides you convenient visual cues even if you can't see what's on the pad. Oh and do all this in under a second!!!

It's already in front of your eyes, if you are wearing glasses or goggles or have gone so far as to have your eyes replaced (or augmented).

I do understand your point of view, however I disagree with it. I did suggest the standard -2 dice pool modifier to the Computer + INT test for using a physical object while astrally perceiving so it wasn't "without penalty". I do also agree that the mage should be better doing something else (more magical in nature), but that wasn't the request in the OP. I try to stick on-topic when I post and answer the question(s) asked without impugning anyone's play style.
DMiller
As an aside: I would actually suggest that the mage, if (s)he didn’t feel confident that spells or counterspelling were the best options in the situation, use a gun. Skill + Agility -2 (for using a device while astrally perceiving) might do better then all of the other suggestions. It would allow the others to have a general idea where the target is so that they could blind fire at it.
SpellBinder
Remember, tracers work both ways. wink.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 1 2013, 09:49 PM) *
Sorry I object strenuously to this... the rules are intentionally designed to be incompatible. Even to the point that simsense cannot tell what a mage is seeing through assensing. (There exists no technological means to record assensing data and feed it to others, like you can use a sim rig to record a persons first person view and feelings and transmit them to others to experience).


Functionally Wrong. There is a Camera that takes astral pictures that can then be shared (fed to others, though possibly not electonically). *shrug*
It is not the SAME as simsense (as you indicated), but the astral impression can be photographed and shared. I have a character concept (A Forensic Mage) that does exactly this.
Falconer
TJ:
Incorrect... the camera does not read the mages assensing and mental state directly. It is not compatible at all with SIMSENSE. It does not provide data at the speed of simrig... relevant to the above at all.

The camera itself takes *30 MINUTES* to develop a single picture and is entirely dependent on the quality of the photographers astral perception. It is an old-school film retrotech glass-plate camera... not some whiz bang electronic gizmo. More to the point the camera does not integrate with tech in any way like a normal camera would... as the captured astral image is still on a photographic plate... and you can only read assensing information off it by reading the alchemical plate. Not a picture of the plate. So while it's manatech it still does not play nice with normal tech.
_Pax._
QUOTE (phlapjack77 @ Apr 2 2013, 02:04 AM) *
I do agree with you that Pax's idea seems a little TOO beneficial and specific.

I disagree - to me, it's all in the "what does this mean to other players' rolls".

They would still have a hefty penalty to their attacks - I wouldn't be giving them a flat "no penalty" effect. I don't have my books to hand currently, but as an off-the-cuff guess? If no roll was involved for the Mage, I'd ease up the Blind Fire penalty by 1 or 2 dice. If there was a roll by the mage, I'd be willing to ease it further - say, by 1 die per 2 successes by the Mage, to a m-nimum penalty of -2. Compounding that: I'd require the group had an active, running TacNet; I'd require that the group had set up a system for doing this beforehand; I would not allow Called Shots regardless; I might require the Mage to spend a Simple Action to designate the target (each time).

See, previous to now, I haven't said one word as to the actual, strict mechanical effects. I've only talked about how the magician could interact at all with a largely AR-driven system like a TacNet.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Apr 2 2013, 09:19 AM) *
TJ:
Incorrect... the camera does not read the mages assensing and mental state directly. It is not compatible at all with SIMSENSE. It does not provide data at the speed of simrig... relevant to the above at all.

The camera itself takes *30 MINUTES* to develop a single picture and is entirely dependent on the quality of the photographers astral perception. It is an old-school film retrotech glass-plate camera... not some whiz bang electronic gizmo. More to the point the camera does not integrate with tech in any way like a normal camera would... as the captured astral image is still on a photographic plate... and you can only read assensing information off it by reading the alchemical plate. Not a picture of the plate. So while it's manatech it still does not play nice with normal tech.


Yes, I know, I did indicate that is was different, as you indicated. smile.gif
However, you said there was no way to translate an Assensing effect to others (of course it does not record the photographer's mental state/aura, that would be dumb), and there is. Which was all I was pointing out. Yes, the Quicksilver camera takes a bit of time, but in the end, you have a physical image of an Aura/Signature that you can pass around. It remains to be seen whether that technology will advance enough to actually integrate with electronic feeds/storage technology, but I see it happening in the not-so-distant future of Shadowrun. The hard part was photographing the aura/signature. Everything else can be figured out from there, in time. smile.gif
_Pax._
Yayy for orichalcum-laced CCDs. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (_Pax._ @ Apr 3 2013, 12:11 PM) *
Yayy for orichalcum-laced CCDs. smile.gif


Yay?
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