In the copy of SR3 I have, when it explains spirits, what they are and how Shamans use them, a section is apparently missing. You look at one page and it's calmly talking about it, and on the next (which is after a picture) it's just finished saying "action."

Now, by deduction and checking, I've determined it's saying the shaman can summon by a complex action, and as far as I know from the example it uses at one point, there's no 'summoning' rules in the way of preparation and stuff (other than the rules of 1 spirit at a time, domains and such).

So is that true? Is a section in yours missing like that also?

What page are you talking about?

I assume you mean page 186 in the BBB. The first paragraph reads

*nodnods* that's it! Except my book starts on the complex part, so I wasn't aware it was exclusive as well, that's important too!

Since I seem to be the only one with it atm, and the errata never mentions it, I'm guessing it was a fluke in print.

BTW, you can have more than one spirit at a time, but the second you summon another spirit, all tasks you are owed by the first spirit are null, though it will continue to perform the last action. IE You get a spirit to use its Concealment power on you, then you summon another spirit to use its Movement power on you, the Concealment keeps going until you leave the domain of the spirit. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this...

The Abstruse One

[Disprovethis]
Actually: It might not be technically possible to do that, or rather it is only possible to do that in an area where domains overlap (or where you can hop between the two by moving from one domain to another). The stuff avout a spirit continuing to do the last service is only talking about once you leave the domain, and it dosen't say that you can dismiss nature spirits like you can elementals.
[/Disprovethis]

I put the disprovethis tags around it because I'm not entierly sure it's true. Someone else want to check it over too?

you should take your copy back to where you bought it, and get it replaced. assuming you bought it with the page missing.

Or it's an older printing.

Fast Forward games has a bad habit of shipping out new books that are 3 or 4 printings behind the listed revision.

Check teh errata at the official site, this should help clear the spirit stuff up.

it was ordered, and technically my brother was the one that had ordered it. It's fairly up to date, only some of the errata applies, but the errata doesn't discuss the error in mine at all, which is why I asked here. If it's not on there then others haven't complained on it so it is likely a printing fluke.

I do know it says you can only have 1 active spirit in a domain at a time, but you can switch domains and summon another, the last spirit fullfills anything they need and depart.

indeed. you should definitely send it back and ask for a replacement.

Please correct me if im wrong, but dont you have to have a shamatic lodge of a force equal to or greater than the spirit being summoned?

You're wrong.

Nature spirits, spirits of the elements, thought forms and loa can be summoned as an exclusive complex action anywhere their domain restriction (if present) allows. Elementals, ancestors, free spirits of all sorts, and allies are ritually conjured spirits. You need an appropriate ritual setting to conjure them. Hermetic circle for hermetics and wu jen. Lodge for shamen of all sorts.

Consider yourself corrected. Shamans can conjure anywhere. They don't need a lodge, so whatever rating their lodge may be dosen't affect the force of spirits they can summon.

A similar restriction applies to Mages, however, as they can't summon spirits with force greater than the rating of the magic circle used.

BTW remember that Great form nature spirits, requiring the metamagic Invoking, don't follow the normal rules about nature spirit domains. They can not only cross out of their home domains, they also don't count against your domain limit of 1 for regular spirits meaning you can, for example, have both a Great Forrest spirit and a Forrest spirit owing you services simultaneously. You can also have multiple Great form spirits owing you services (your Charisma limits the total spirits you can have).

Since we are on Spirits and Book explanation:

Here is my question, what is the difference between Disrupting and Killing a Spirit.


And how would I go about Disrupting a spirit (give an example please.)

How would I go about Killing a spirit(give an example here as well.)

Banishment and Astral Quest are the only methods to permanently destroy a spirit.

Causing 10 boxes of Physical or Mental damage merely Disrupts the spirit.

Shamanic Lodge is for learning spells and ritual magic, generally. Nature Spirits have so many limitations, they are hardly cheesy. YMMV.

Typical Nature Spirits: Cause Drain "in the field," have domain limitations, and only stick around for 12 hours at the most. In exchange they have more powers available.

Typical Elementals: Don't cause Drain in the field thus allowing you to put more oomph into them, thus conjuring more powerful spirits. This is made up for by conjuring materials (which are dirt cheap to make on your own using Talismongering) and a conjuring circle. They tend to be stronger in combat and can augment a mage's power, but lack the wide diversity of powers a nature spirit has. They have no time limitation whatsoever, thus allowing a mage to add services on and on and on without worrying about them disappearing after a couple of hours.

They're pretty balanced all around. People around here just tend to dismiss elementals because they like the flashy powers nature spirits have and horribly underestimate the benefits of an elemental.

I have to admit, though. It would be nice if hermetic mages could at least have a shot at conjuring Spirits of the Elements, too. Their domains aren't exactly common or easy to come by, so it wouldn't be horribly unbalancing, yet at the same time it would give them some of that diversity and spontanity in the conjuring department they otherwise lack outside of Watchers.

I have always found elementals to be better than nature spirits because you can have so fraggin many of them. The aid sorcery power rocks and they have some very usefull powers such as engulf and movement. In one run I was astrally projecting and I had to save a guy from the bottom of a lake so I had an air elemental engulf him to provide him with air and i had an earth elemental move him underground to the top of a cliff face while the air elemental allowed him to breath underground. Elementals are way better than nature spirits

EDIT: What exactly are spirits of the elements

I would rather see Thought Forms or something very similar for mages than open the bag of spirits to one another. Thought Forms make so much sense even from a Hermetic PoV (Watchers are consider minor Thought Forms anyway), and not nearly a fluff killer as access to Spirits of the Elements (Salamders - Flames, Gnomes - Ground, Slyphs -Winds , Undines - Waves, Manitous - Wood) would be.

Spirits of the Elements are on page 105 of Magic in the Shadows.

And Wujen conjur Spirits of the Elements and Spirits of Man (or Ancestor, Wujen's choice).

I just ran a Spirit combat a little while ago for the first time and I wanted to verify that they are as powerful as they seem. Does a Force 6 Fire Elemental really have 18 dice in Combat Pool?!? That just seemed like an incredible amount - and likewise an Air Elemental 24 dice?

...okay, those multipliers listed after the Qui, that's the running modifier. a force 6 fire elemental has Qui of (F+2) 8, not 24.

Ahhhhhhh - thank you . . . i should have read that legend a little more carefully! Thanks!

np.