As the title?

Per RAW yes (ish) per RAI don't know?

I'm neither for or against either option but from a realism perspective both can make sense in game world reality. Which is my credo.
Makes magical groups more powerful as you would expect and levels the uber archmage elder syndrome. But game balance could be seriously unhinged by this very fact with less karma by number of magicians needed.

Thoughts?

Where does RAW say a mage can use his own metamagic techniques on someone else's spells? AFAIK, all descriptions of metamagical techniques refer exclusively to the initiate learning to alter his own spells in some way.

I don't think RAW directly states that "metamagic in general can only be applied to oneself" so much as that it doesn't explictly ban it, but yes, individual metamagical techniques (at least in SR4A) do specifically refer to a mage's own spells/aura/etc.

Saying that it makes sense to allow it either way is kind of generous, IMHO, if you treat "anchored" or "quickened" like any other attribute of a spell. Once a spell has actually been cast, even the original caster can't modify the attributes the spell on the fly; they have to dispel it and re-cast it with the attributes they want. I'm not sure how a different caster would be able to do so under the same circumstances. Even Counterspelling just breaks a spell down from the outside instead of actually going "inside" a spell and modifying it, if that makes any sense. (Chalk it up to the whole "mystical link" thing if you want.)

On the other hand, I don't think there's anything preventing the initiate from anchoring or quickening a spell that has another person as its target. Both of those metamagics say the spell needs to be cast "as normal", so if you can normally target the spell on another person you could just do it that way. In fact, I'm 90% sure I've seen an NPC stat block that had a mundane with a spell anchored on him, I just can't remember which book it was in.

Nothing stops you from performing your quickening/anchoring in a group with ritual magic, does it?

Don't all the participants need to know the spell being cast? At that point, the difference between "my spell" and "his spell" becomes entirely academic.

I don't think anything stops you in the sense of a rule saying "you can't do that", no. I guess it depends on how strictly you want to read the rules; one magician might be able to slip a metamagic in during casting, but it might be that all the magicians present need to know the metamagic the same way they all need to know the spell, otherwise things'll go out of whack.

Well, just a Note...

Adepts can sustain another mage's spell with the Adept Power "Living Focus" so I do not see a problem with a Mage "sustaining" another Mages's Spell with Anchoring or Quickening. *shrug*

Yes, that's true, and if the goal of the exercise is "to have a spell sustained by a magician without those metamagics" that works perfectly well. I'm not sure that's quite what the OP wanted to do, though. The way the Living Focus power (or a normal sustaining focus) seems to work is this:

Spellcaster -----> Spell target (Focus) w/ integral metamagic

I think what the OP wants to do is this (if I'm wrong, please clarify for me):

Spellcaster -----> Metamagic from initiate -----> Spell target

In normal use of metamagic or a sustaining/anchoring focus (including an adept with the power TJ mentioned), either the spell or the focus will already be quickened at the time the spell is cast. Again, if your goal is to have a spell quickened, sustaining foci and/or the Living Focus power can go a long way toward that. My argument above really only comes into play if you're asking for the sake of being curious about how magic/quickening mechanics work.

To clarify I know the example in the books are written from an initiate working their own mojo. This may be as it is intended or simply because most magic is cast this way.

Theoretically though is the sole use of metamagics 'best' in game as stand alone initiate power OR Sota combination with other spell casters powers to do more than the sum of its parts.

This is a thought experiment and no more. I am looking for a tipping point via the forum as the arguments are balanced in my eyes.

Just how malleable is mana and the power balance of the game?

So its
Spell casting--- initiate meta magic ---- spell target effect

From both fluff and crunch perspectives, I would not allow it. Fluffily, magicians shape mana into spells with their minds, and I just can't see two people being able to synch their mental processes to the degree necessary. Crunchily, I just wouldn't allow a spellcaster to use a metamagic technique he hasn't paid for.

Out of curiousity, Why Not? If the Adept is using Living Focus to assist the mage, the Mage has not paid for that ability. It really is a direct correlation.

No, it isn't. Living Focus only works on the adept who possesses it and has paid for it; moreover, the adept now takes the -2 sustaining penalty rather than the magician. The cost hasn't disappeared, just been moved around. OP is talking about Alice casting Invisibility and Bob Quickening that spell for her. Effectively, Alice can Quicken any spell, cast on any legal target, for free.

I think here in lies the rub...

If Alice is casting Invisibilty on Bob, IMO either Alice or Bob should be able to quicken it, however Kelly shouldn't be able to quicken Alice's spell on Bob.

With Living Focus I would not allow the adept to sustain a spell cast on anyone other than herself, but again that is only my opinion I'm not sure if that is truly RAW, or even RAI.

That is RAW. The Living Focus power allows an adept to "sustain a spell cast solely on him." (Street Magic)

@Pendaric: I'm inclined to believe that "initiate using metamagic solely on their own spells" is what was intended. My reasoning is that there are no examples of a magician being able to alter a spell after it's cast, even their own spells. You can't cast a spell at Force 3, then go back and say "actually, I'd like to upgrade that to Force 4" without re-casting the spell from scratch. Likewise, if you cast Increase Reflexes on Alice, you can't then go back and say "actually, I'd like to shift that to Bob" - you have to drop the one you cast on Alice, then re-cast the spell on Bob. Thus, since adding a metamagic to a spell after the fact is effectively the same mechanic, it won't work.

Counterspelling doesn't fall into that mechanic because it affects whether a spell exists or doesn't exist, nothing else. (You can turn a light on or off, but you can't change its colour without replacing the bulb.) Anchoring and sustaining foci also don't fall into that mechanic, because what you have is "a spell that can't normally be anchored/sustained" plus "a focus that can anchor/sustain a spell that can't normally be anchored/sustained". The ability to anchor/sustain the spell is a function of the focus, not the spell itself.

@TJ: In terms of "using an ability you didn't pay for", the magician hasn't actually gained an ability themselves so much as the opportunity to use an ability that someone else has gained. If not for the adept's presence, the magician's abilities wouldn't have been affected at all. (If you control a drone that has a machine gun mounted, you don't actually possess a machine gun, you possess the opportunity to use someone else's machine gun.) EDIT: Yes, I agree that there's a parallel in that the magician didn't pay for the outside ability in either example, but Living Focus both explicitly states its ability to aid others and sets limitations on that. When it comes to using outside metamagics, the RAW stays silent at best and disallows it at worst.

Also, general note: after going back and checking the description again, the write-up for Living Focus in Street Magic does specifically say it has to be used on a spell cast "solely" on the adept.

My opinion is, it would require another metamagic on the part of the Quickenign or Anchoring mage.

After all, Adepts need to take a power specifically to take over sustaining a spell cast on them. There's no reason to think that being a Magician would change that requirement (or do Mystic Adepts get Living Focus as a free power, then?) ...

Metamagical techniques represent the expansion of a magicians understanding of magical potential gained via Initiation. If you don't Initiate you don't get to use the added capabilities.

Somebody asked where it would say that Metamagic can only be used on the initiate's own spells. I can't say it for all Metamagic, but for Quickening it says it right in the description of Quickening on page 198 SR4A, emphasis mine:


So by RAW the caster can quicken his own spell, but neither the target of the spell can do it nor somebody else.

Yes, and RAW, the Casting Mage is getting the benefit of someone else's "Metamagic" at that point.

I agree that One Mage casting a spell at Target X while Mage Y Quickens the spell being cast on Target X is a possible no go (2 mages working in tandem for the benefit/detriment of a target). But, I think I would allow a Mage casting a Spell on Mage Y while Mage Y Quickened the spell on himself. I mean really, we already have mages quickening spells on Mundanes (The Triads come to mind here, via tattoo magic), so it really is not a stretch, in my opinion, though I might require an Advanced Metamagic to do so.

EDIT: I can agree with later posts of all involved (Blaze2050, Shaidar, _Pax_, and Freya)... Thanks.

You could possibly combine Quicken and Living Focus to allow an Adept (that knows both Metamagics) to Quicken a spell that they take on the Sustaining for. Past that, there doesn't seem to be a way to subvert the fact that Quickening is a modification of a mage's own sustained spell.

... that's .... that's brilliant. It's an actual reason for some Adepts to take Quickening ...! I would certainly allow an Adept to take that metamagic and benefit form it, if they also invested a full power point in Living Focus.

Unless you add an advanced version of Quickening to allow its application to another Mage's spell.

I could see it being a second Metamagic (one taken by the initiate that has Quickening already) that allows the mage to perform a ritual that lets the target of a spell to spend the Karma necessary to Quicken the spell. That is definitely a house rule metamagic though.

.... the thing is, I'd make the new Metamagic work pretty much like Living Focus: the mage can take over sustaining a spell as if it were their own. Which would have benefits above and beyond just quickening others' spells, too.

I can see that... most definitely.

These are brilliant ideas. I MAY end up hijacking them for a campaign I'm doing.

Another idea I had on the subject of new metamagics was some variant of Great Ritual that made it easier for an initiate to feed a metamagic into a ritual casting, maybe with the karma cost split between the entire group for something like quickening. Thoughts?

Edit: When I read back over that idea, it seems like the kind of thing Harlequin would do. You know, whip up an immensely powerful ritual spell complete with metamagic, then stick everyone else with the bill.

OK so mostly its a new advance meta magics or personal meta magic needed.

Practical and slightly more conservative than expected I must admit. Some very inventive uses of living focus though.

Thank you everyone.

First, Living Focus is an adept power, not a metamagic, and second, the only "benefit" the magician gains is not having to eat the -2 sustaining penalty for that spell.

The example of tattoo magic is a red herring. You're mistaking targeting for quickening: the magician is quickening his own spell, which happens to be targeted on a mundane. It's a bog-standard use of quickening, and does not, by any stretch of the imagination, suggest that a second magician would be able to quicken the first one's spell.

While the section of SR4A dealing with ritual spellcasting doesn't mention metamagic, I would allow any member of a ritual team to apply any metamagic they may know to the spell being cast. That's the only way, by RAW, that magicians can collaborate on a spell.

Yes, I understand that Tanegar... The point is that there are already abilities that allow someone else to take over a spell from the caster. Since we know what those look like, it is but a small step to expand upon them. And I see no harm in doing so, if that is the way you want to go. And per your own explanation, if I perform my Tttoo Magic ritually (as many of the Triads do) then what we are talking about is already possible, acording to you, by dint of it being ritualized.

And as I have already pointed out more than once. Adepts and Magicians can collaborate on a spell as well, assuming the Adept has Living Focus.
And if you are going to allow Ritual Magic to do so without any caveat (per your above statement), then allowing Magicians to do so outside of Ritual Magic (Which can be anything already) is not much of a stretch. *shrug*

Especially not if you cook up an appropriate Metamagic to represent "this mage knows how to do that thing with magic".

You're stretching the definition of "collaborate." The adept isn't helping build the astral construct, he's just taking the handoff for sustaining purposes. Channeling mana into an established construct is much different than shaping it from scratch. What you're talking about is two different magicians casting a spell together, and the only way that has ever been possible in Shadowrun is through the use of a ritual.

Which is why we are talking about an ADVANCED METAMAGIC technique. Just because it has not happened that way before does not mean it cannot happen that way in the future. And much like I indicated above, if you are using the Ritual Spellcasting caveat that you appear to be using, you can do what we are talking about already, with no changes, by just declaring it to be a Ritual. I have no problems with that, personally. But it seems odd that you are saying "no, don't do that" and are then allowing Ritual Magic to do just that.

I agree, it does seem odd... probably because that's not actually what I'm saying.

Let me break it down.

OP wants two magicians to cast a spell together.
The way to do this is by using a ritual.
OP and others want a metamagic that eliminates the need for a ritual.
Your table, your rules; but IMO what you are describing makes magic more broken.

Any questions?

Apparently, you seem to also be under a misapprehension...

We do not do what I am suggesting, at our table, though I have looked at it as an interesting idea. I am suggesting it because the OP was curious how to accomplish it. The easy way to do so would be with Customized Advanced Metamagics. I do not see it as broken, since Ritual Magic can accomplish this already to some degree. Structuring this as an Advanced Metamagic would likely require two or more Initiations (Depending upon your prerequisites) just to start playing with the idea, so not something that will be common, since Ritual Magic can already accomplish many of the things being discussed (again, to a degree). *shrug*

I do think it is an interesting idea. May require a bit more thought, but it does not look unbalancing on the face of things, at least on this initial look.

Had a thought- how would the above effect spells cast by an ally spirit and quickened/anchored by its master?

Assuming you subscribe to the idea that it is possible, it would work like any other application of Quickening/Anchoring.