Hey guys,

So our team keeps running into Voo-Doo themed guardians.
I'm trying to figure out how toxins affect zombies and possessed NPCs.

1. I don't think toxins work on spirits, but what about vessels (living/non-living)?
2. Is it possible to pop a spirit out of a possessed caster without killing the caster?
3. Would something like gamma-scopolamine or narco-jet work to knock out the vessel and thereby eject the spirit?

1. Toxins actually work totally fine on spirits, but ITNW applies.

2. Yes. Stun damage will do this. So will Banishing, and without KOing the caster (if you like melting your own face off). Mana Static will do this too if you can get enough hits. Other options doubtless exist.

3. No. There is no "vessel" and "spirit," there is a combined being with shared attributes. If the Power of the toxin is high enough to bypass ITNW then the combined being is affected. You wouldn't "eject" the spirit, you would knock out the combined being which disrupts the spirit (and leaves the vessel unconscious).

Ninja'd a bit by Umaro, but I already have it all written out so I'll leave it... Looks like we pretty much agree.

I'm not with book right now, but I have done a fair amount of looking into Possession spirits for the game I am running. We have a Possession mage and have run into a few situations where we realized that Possession made the possible resulting mage possibly rediculously powerful.

1. Nothing innately makes spirits immune to toxins, apart from their innate Immunity to Normal Weapons. I would probably treat toxins just like any other weapon, so if the DV is higher than their Immunity rating, they can be affected by it. This is particularly true for Possession-style spirits as they sort of "fuse" themselves with the vessel they are using.

2. You can Banish a spirit to remove it from a vessel without needing to deal any damage. You can also try to push them through a Barrier, if the spirit fails to push through, then it gets disrupted while the vessel moves physically through. And see point 3.

3. The Vessel and the Spirit share damage tracks, both Physical and Stun. So enough damage to knock out the Spirit will disrupt it. When it is disrupted you apply all the damage to the vessel as well. If, for instance the Spirit (a Force 5) has a Stun track of 11, but the possessed individual only had a Willpower of 3, so a Stun track of 10, then the extra 1 box of damage would overflow into Physical.

That means if you try to use Physical damage to disrupt the spirit you will most likely kill the vessel.

1) The above two people are wrong. ItNW does not affect toxins because toxins' damage is a factor of the Toxin Resistance Test and not the Damage Resistance Test - since ItNW gives the spirit a certain quality dependent of an effective Ballistic/Impact armor. That's why there's Immunity (Toxins).

Other than that they're pretty much right.

Welcome Back Neraph...

So could someone hit a possessed vessel with a DMSO Gamma-scopalopmine patch to dissipate the spirit?
1. DMSO = contact toxin - bypasses armor?
2. Gamma-Scopalopmine - paralysis (not damage)?

Does the spirit get ejected once the vessel is paralyzed or does that vessel need to be unconscious from damage?

And if paralysis does not work, would DMSO + Slab get rid of the spirit?

Toxins "bypass" armor because they do not care about Armor Ratings; this is why Narcoject/Pepper Punch works just as well on trolltanks also. Paralysis would not disrupt the spirit but it would seriously hamper what the spirit could do. As a GM I'd House-Rule it similar to a possessed statue - can't move and all that, but still very much aware of its surroundings and can still use its Powers.

Since a possessed vessel is now a new combined entity(see Kiirnodel's #3 answer above) sending the vessel unconscious would disrupt the spirit by default, as the spirit is unconscious as well at that point.

The way I worked slab capsules in a game I had a while back was like this: it sent the vessel to sleep but the spirit was able to still manipulate the body. I described it as being almost like Lord Marshall from Chronicles of Riddick.

I don't think that's correct.

1. "Immunity to Normal Weapons" is a specific form of "Immunity," as is "Immunity (Toxins)." If your argument were correct, Immunity (Toxins) would do nothing.

2. The "certain quality" to which you refer is Hardened Armor but I do not agree with your characterization of Hardened Armor as "dependent of [I assume you mean on] an effective Ballistic/Impact armor."

Hardened Armor in fact states: "If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating."

Note that the "Ballistic/Impact armor" is part of the "Otherwise" clause.

So the effect of Immunity here is that if the DV of the toxin (which would be equal to its power per SR4A 245) is less than or equal to the applicable Hardened Armor rating (2x magic in this case) it bounces, otherwise the immunity does nothing.

You could I guess argue that toxins aren't weapons, but that strikes me as highly fishy.

Normal Immunity does not require that the damage be from a weapon - it provides Hardened Armour against specific sorts of damage. It is only ItNW that specifically calls out weapons.

And strictly speaking, a toxin isn't a weapon. It's delivery system is, sure - so ItNW would apply to the Stun damage caused by the capsule round. That doesn't mean it applies to the toxin.

Pretty much this. Much more succinct then I was going to do.

Neraph has the right of it.
ItNW does not cover this.


This is part of the reasons why the use of any 'chemical' on a spirit is kind of contentious and nebulous. Less so for possession than materialization.

And I got that after three months of boot camp without looking at books for reference. Nice to know I haven't lost my touch.

The "ItNW doesn't work on toxins because toxins aren't weapons" argument isn't what Neraph originally posted, he was originally arguing that it had to do with Immunity granting Hardened Armor rather than the question of whether "toxins" are "normal weapons" or not.

It's fairly pointless to argue about the "are toxins weapons" question because it's ultimately a semantic argument. I will point out that you could make the same sort of semantic arguments for other things - ITNW doesn't work on SnS, because electricity isn't a weapon and the bullet is just a delivery system for the electricity, etc.

No, that was exactly my argument. Since toxins involve a Toxin Resistance Test and not a Damage Resistance Test the Hardened Armor from ItNW does not apply. That's like asking if your Firewall program helps defend against social interactions - these are two completely different things.

As for SnS, yes ItNW works against it. ItNW gives you armor and SnS ammo targets armor. The only reason SnS works oddly with ItNW is because, as an elemental effect, it halves the effective armor, thereby greatly reducing the effectiveness of ItNW. The explanation (fluff) of how SnS works means nothing when compared to the hard rules (crunch) of what SnS actually does.

Immunity (Toxins) also works by granting Hardened Armor against toxins.

Not exactly, but close (Immunity either grants an actual immunity [like against Age] or an effect similar to Hardened Armor against only the source listed [like Immunity (Fire)]). Since that effect is specifically designed for Toxins it works, whereas ItNW is specifically just armor which doesn't care about toxins.

Source? All I see is a blanket rule with a special exception for Age.

Immunity to Toxins exceptionally grants armour against something not normally effected by armour. ItNW has no such exceptional status.

So only Pathogens/Toxins with a Power greater than critter/spirit Magicx2 would have any effect on the Possessed/Spirit singular dual natured amalgamation.

Wrong, and you even bolded out the section that proves you wrong.

ItNW gives you effectively Hardened Armor and it specifically mentions making Damage Resistance Tests. TOXINS DO NOT USE DAMAGE RESISTANCE TESTS. Maybe putting it in all caps will help you people realize this. Toxins have TOXIN RESISTANCE TESTS, which ItNW does not help in the least. That is why they have Immunity (Toxins).

Toxins themselves are not considered weapons; they are not listed with weapons and their rules are not in the weapons section of rules. ItNW does not protect against toxins.

Immunity to Normal Weapons is not the same thing as Immunity to Pathogens/Toxins, and is set out in different game terms.

Sorry, I hadn't done my homework on Toxin Resistance Tests in SR4.

But, Immunity lends it a shading that intimates that the critter is indeed Immune to some Pathogens/Toxins. Anyhow, I agree with Neraph & RHat. ItNW doesn't affect Toxins (and the Resistance Tests) directly, but it could affect injection vector delivery. Which isn't that hard to overcome DMSO handles that nicely.

So, given that Immunity (Toxins), as set out in Running Wild, gives you Hardened Armor versus Toxins and a bonus to Toxin Resistance Tests, you would conclude that Immunity (Toxins) in effect only gives the bonus to Toxin Resistance Tests and does not actually ever provide immunity?

Exactly. The same goes with Fire, and is actually worse with Fire. Goblins have Immunity (Fire), which gives them Hardened Armor equal to twice their Magic rating against fire attacks, but fire halves all armor, essentially making their Immunity equal to their Magic rating, which means that most fire can still affect them.

The term "Immunity" is slightly misleading in Shadowrun.

So both materialized spirits and possessed vessels can be poisoned?
Neither of them have Immunity: Toxins listed.
What happens when a vessel is paralyzed?

Post number eight from this very thread:

I saw that earlier, but I don't think it answers the question.
Can a spirit be poisoned/paralyzed?

Technically yes. I don't think they should be able to, as toxins and pathogens affect living tissue, something which even materialized spirits lack.

RAW--Yes, the spirits can be affected by toxins and SNS etc.

These things all work on people because of our physiology and the way our nervous system and tissues respond to electricity and various chemicals. Spirits don't have any physiology or nervous systems (which is why they can't use simsense etc).

So, it comes down to if you want to follow the books which streamline and gloss over some pesky problems or if you want to play a realistic game with dragons and magic.

Edit: Neraph wrote this more succinctly

Ditto with Neraph and BishopMcQ. Our group makes ordinary toxins etc. have no effect on spirits, but Awakened drugs etc. do. Just to give my Free Spirit PC something to worry about, I guess.

Technically, when Materialized, the spirits do have a physical form that can be damaged, just like anybody else. So at the very least the SnS definitely have something to hit and release the electricity damage. Note that ItNW still applies to SnS ammo, it just halves the Armor value so it has a higher chance of dealing damage.

As for toxins and pathogens, I would say that strong enough toxins could still possibly affect spirits as after a certain point it isn't so much how it relates to the human body as it is just naturally toxic and damaging to anything living. But I do agree that at least some poisons shouldn't really affect spirits. A great way to show this would be letting the ItNW apply to toxins as weapons. So if the DV of the toxin is not higher than the spirits ItNW, it doesn't apply. If it is enough, they get the rating as a bonus to the resistance test. Magical toxins would override this (magical). Either way it would be a houserule...

I'd feel better if I saw Immunity to Toxins alongside Immunity to Normal Weapons in the RAW.
They're two different things.

Yesferatu--GMs can easily add the Immunity to Toxins to spirits if they choose. Hell, they're encouraged to change things up...

SR4A, Powers p. 292:
The game mechanics given for the powers below are not intended as hard and fast rules, but as guidelines for the gamemaster. Players should never be absolutely certain of the capabilities of a critter, particularly Awakened ones.

I could also see it as an oversight. And a GM could also rule Toxins/Pathogens as biological weapons, and therefore are encompassed by the Immunity to Normal Weapons. They added Immunity to Toxins/Pathogens in Running Wild as a specific callout because of the reason mentioned earlier, Armor doesn't apply to Toxins because it is a different kind of Resistance Test. The specifics for it in Running Wild simply clarify that the creature gets a bonus on the Toxin Resistance Test equal to the Immunity Rating.

Ask and ye shall receive.



And Kiirnodel, they receive Magic x2 as a bonus to their Pathogen/Toxin Resistance Test, not just their Magic.

Shaidar, isn't that just listing assorted types of immunity, not just stating if you're immune to one thing you're immune to all?
That said, I completely agree that materialized spirits should be immune to poison. Possession... not so much.

No. A normal weapon is what everyone would immediately assume is a normal weapon, so first off your logic of NBC being a "normal" weapon isn't. Secondly, ItNW specifically gives an effect like Hardened Armor, which specifically calls out Damage Resistance Tests (I can't believe I'm having to repeat myself again). Toxins do not fall under effects that are resisted by Damage Resisted Tests - they are handled with Toxin Resistance Tests.

It doesn't work the way you want it to without houseruling the system away from its intentions.

EDIT:

It should be noted that those extra dice granted are considered Hardened, so if the Immunity defense is above the Power of the toxin then you don't even have to roll for it. That's the over-arching rule for Immunity, with Toxin only being what it is applied against.

So you can't toss KEIV insecticide at a true form materialized bug spirit...

Sorry rules make it fairly clear that is supposed to work.

Except all Insect Spirits have a Severe Allergy to Insecticides, and True Forms don't have ItNW (only Hybrid- and Flesh-Form Insects have ItNW); additionally No Insect Spirit has Immunity to Pathogens /Toxins, and even if they did have ItP/T the Insecticide would ignore the Immunity due to the Allergy..

Immunity appears to be a general classification consisting of 4 semi-related powers.

True Form is a type of inhabitation, which is from possession. (SM 100).

KE IV says it's for killing "awakened insects such as the wyrd mantis" (Arsenal 84), though it does mention it might cause spirits to go berserk. This seems to fit with everything already discussed because of that "may"... even if you say ItNW covers poison, the "may" allows for it to cover spirits of Force 3 and less and not 4+.

Edit: Removed some superfluous stuff.

Which results in a materialization spirit as the body is completely consumed.

So no, you're making things up without any rules backing. The spirit does not have immunity to toxins.


Shaidar:
True forms gain 'Materialization'. Materialization grants ItnW when used the same as any other spirit.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

That's a good point about the host being consumed; That'll teach me.

Also, note that an Allergy to a substance bypasses all of the Immunity to Normal Weapons for any attacks made with that substance. So, a bug spirit's allergy to insecticides would ignore the ITNW.