Guys. Last night I ended up in a debate with my GM and part of my gaming group.

Now...We all agree that it's possible to hack a gun with a Smartgun System, and thereby cause it to do various things. My GM, however, claims that any gun can be hacked, because all of them, in his understanding, have some form of software inside, and a wifi connection (unless specifically disconnected). Hence for instance an automatic handgun with no Smartgun System would be possible to hack and cause to either have it's safety turned on/off or eject the magazine.

Now, I'll grant him that a gun with an electronic firing system or some such might be possible to hack and make do something. But I can not for the death of me envision that it should be possible to hack a gun that doesn't come with some sort of software/operating system, and an obvious and clearly mentioned remote control option.

Maybe all guns come with some form of electronic tag that carries a serial no. and some owner data or some such. Maybe such a tag is hardwired into the gun. But even so, if it's not designed to be some form of operating system for the gun, I can not see how it should be possible to affect the operation of the gun, by hacking a datachip with some owner information and maybe some diagnostics info.

Part of my GM's reasoning is that pretty much everything is connected to the Matrix, and if the coffee machine and your clothes come with some form of wifi connectivity, then surely guns do too.


What's your take on this? Who of us is mad? If it's me who's running down the wrong road here, I'd appreciate any indication to places in a rulebook, that would support my GM's interpretation. Similarly any references that would support my interpretation would also be appreciated.


/Kyrel

If all guns have a WiFi system and software/hardware to do things like turn the safety on/off, eject the clip, and so on?

Then all guns should, indeed MUST, get the benefits of being Smartlinked, when it comes to those functions.

...

Which is to say, in a roundabout fashion: your GM is wrong.

I can't remember a reference that says all guns are wifi. literally there is no benefit to the user without as you say either electronic firing mechanism or Smart Link

on top of that, in this paranoid world no one of any skill will run with an open access wifi weapon,

it would be either slaved to their PAN and have firewall and encrypt up the wazoo or skinlinked

And lastly even if it is wifi on everything, surely the range on the weapon will be like ZERO ? i.e. so your PAN can pick it up.
so, hacking that means you'd need to get right up close to stand a chance ?

strikes me as your GM looking for a rules loophole to do "something different" to you than just shoot you, or to counter you keep killing his NPC's .

if it's a once in a while thing, suck it up! it's his world that you live in, just think of another way to kill that technomage he's trying to challenge you with.
it could be fun. let him GM handwave that this one guy was "special" but explain that in future no ALL weapons are wifi

if he keeps doing it repeatedly just because you as a person were not aware of buying firewall for EVERYTHING at character gen... then tell him to Poke it up his wazoo ! Player Characters would and SHOULD have the necessary knowledge to protect themselves from prevalent attacks.
i.e. turning off wifi or using other means of connection


***EDIT*** Pax ninja'd me

It hasn't been an issue in-game yet, and my character is a (throwing)knife wielding mage, so I don't really care all that much about it, one way or another. It was just something that cropped up as a debate last night, after one of the other characters got a clip ejected from his pistol (which did have a Smartlink though). I'm merely curious as to whether I've misunderstood something about how guns in 2072 is supposed to work or not. Especially since the debate was stored in the "to be continued" folder for further debate after the night's game (we were in the middle of a firefight at the time, so not the best time for that kind of debate).

IIRC, all guns are Signal 0, meaning a 3m range at best. If it's not a Smartgun, then I believe the best info you might get is an ammo count of the magazine, otherwise you might find a backup storage for a person's SR4 equivalent of iTunes storage.

This is the impression that I always had. The fact that not all guns were smart made it especially wonderful when we did have enemies with smartlinks.

So, while a capable hacker can get "into" an unwary runner's weapon, he or she can basically just count how many obnoxious hackers can still get shot.
Any additional functions like ejecting clips or possibly safety are intended for smartguns.
So, both of you weren't entirely wrong or right, it seems.

Emphasis mine. This suggests very strongly to me that your interpretation's right, Kyrel. While pretty well everything does have RFIDs, the wireless functionality of those items is much more limited. Yeah, there are RFID tags in your clothes, but you can't program them to be a different colour. (inb4 someone lists examples of clothes that can do just that - you know what I mean. ) I agree that being able to mess with all those awesome things about the gun is a function of the smartlink system, not the gun itself. As for electronic firing, your mileage may vary, but I personally wouldn't count it - I've always thought of it more like those piezoelectric cigarette lighters that spark by running current through a circuit instead of striking a flint. Nifty, but still mechanically-operated, so they're not inherently wireless.



You guys are awfully forgiving. In my group, mid-combat would've been the PERFECT time to have a debate about whether you could hack all firearms or only smartlinked ones. (Mostly because the hacker would go "Ooh, me too!")

I wonder at the idea that everything gets filtered through the perspective of shadow runners. It is entirely readable that most products that are sold are set up exactly this way (continuous wifi broadcasting). Lots of apps on modern cell phones have a similar function, sending data back to the company for "quality assurance." Maybe the average weapon/car/com/toaster is set with a Signal 0 transmission that auto-connects to a public access WiFi whenever it can, to offer "anonymous" data to the designers.

In the world of SR2070+, it would probably be a lot more than just usage data and bug reports. There is also a reference in one of the Gun Haven books, iirc. Something about a text file that gets compiled and hidden in some obscure part of the software. It's also not entirely improbable that a bunch of stuff has a needless amount of electronics, software, and/or RFID tags. It gets more disturbing when you consider the average corporate citizen and their level of trust in the corporate machine they belong to.

Of course, most runners aren't the average schlub, and should already be aware of these things. Maybe only fools like me think about it. Could also be a logic hole that the writers have missed, or something so basic it doesn't get mentioned on JP.

Guns are not disposable. With even utterly minimal maintenance, stuff that was new in the 2030's is damn well still floating around in the 70's in perfect working order.

That said, were this my GM's interpretation, I'd be carrying cap-and-ball black powder just to fuck with him.

True, and I didn't mean to imply that everything was like that. Just what the average, law-abiding citizen is likely to have. Most runners scan their crap for such things. And the average street gun is gonna be "clean" of any tracking gear. Just thinking of random crap is all.

Don't need to go that far back. All those Vintage guns from Gun Haven? Purely Mechanical. Good luck hacking that. The Incompatible ones CAN be hacked, but you need Translation Software to talk to them (read: good luck with that without advance intel), and most of those aren't going to be smartlinked, thus the hacker can't do much (there's no link to the systems that do things like fire the gun). I believe some of them even take modern caseless ammunition.

The standard solution is to slave everything to your PAN, and either get a real 'link with a good firewall and some mean IC (remember to include one with a high rating Analyze program to see the hacker in the first place), or slave your own 'link to the party Hacker's, who can fight the opposing Hacker on more equal terms.

Just go skinlink, and don't let anyone touch you for more than 3/4 seconds.

The best there is in Hacking Weapons is a big huge Axe.

This.

Hell, I even spring for Skinlink on my CYBER EYES, for any security-savvy characters I make. I've even added Skinlink to datajacks (so I can have the full functionalityof jacking in .... without having a wire trailing away from my skull).

Skinlink trodes, contacts, earbuds... the list can go on.

Giveyeruncleahugyoulittlerascalyou!!

Sure thing!

*mental command "run: script(HugFromUncleRubic)" ...*
Script suspends ALL non-hardline network traffic for thirty seconds.

^_^

Okay, this was serious lulz. I did not expect that sort of response.

This is brilliant. Thank you for that suggestion.

Also, if your GM decides to keep his interpretation, just have your hacker try and start hacking any and all guns he sees. Those corp security goons chasing after you? Eject their clips. That BBEG who took your Face hostage? Turn his safety on. Those gangers guarding the entrance to the building you need to get into? Spoof their ammo counts to zero, so their guns don't fire.

After all, many rules that screw you can be turned right around on the NPCs...

Just don't forget that these same can turn around to bite you on the ass. Predator vs. Prey after all...

That's why you use a bow and arrow.

Which is why you specifically go in, and BURN OUT the wireless and RFID elements of your own guns. Get Skinlink on everything.

I was going to say get a cyber safety, but skinlinking your datajack does the same damn thing, but doesn't cost capacity, and is cheaper... Damn, I love Dumpshock!

Yes and no. The cybersafety will still keep your gun (relatively) unhackable if you're grappled by someone running a Pocket Hacker in a skinlink-enabled device. But that's such a narrow edge-case .... yeah.

If I'm that close then it doesn't matter.

The Cyber-safety will also prevent the weapon from being fired via the trigger, in the event the weapon is taken from you somehow.

Anyway, that particular system does still have some applications. Skinlinking is just a means of maintaining network security, including to your gun(s).

You can have your smartgun set to lock the trigger if the skinlink connection is broken without the proper command, thereby negating the issue of someone disarming you. Maybe it'd take a cyber-safety or a built-in weapon's comm/agent setup, but that would work fairly well.

Yes. And that kind of synergy between systems is a great idea, IMO.

It's not that you should be wary of any hacker with skinlink touching you. A microdrone with skinlink and a decent covert ops autosoft is far more dangerous.

And those are going to happen .... how often, exactly?

...

Yeah.

Besides which, you know what? If you can get a microdrone to TOUCH me, without my knowledge? Fuck hacking my gun. Have it deliver a slap-patch of Slab, FFS, and just TAKE ME PRISONER.

I mean, seriously; overthinking it, much?

Not a bad idea for a paranoia angle...

Like how some now believe that sugar is loaded with tiny RFID tags so the government can monitor everything you do...

If the microdrone can touch and hack your commlink there are more interesting things to do than ejecting the weapon's magazine.

that is pretty much canon . .
the example from the book uses coffee, but i see no reason for it to not work with other stuff too . .

Wait, there are people who do not skinlink their datajacks?

Bye
Thanee

I am sure there are... Of course, they are probably not Shadowrunners.

why would you need to skinlink a datajack?
a datajack is already connected by wire to your wetare by default, as it is a direct neural interface anyway right?
only need to melt out the wireless capabilities of that thing and you are good to go . .

You skinlink it so that your non-wired, worn paraphenalia can interface with your datajack without having to transmit with a Signal of 0 or greater.

Okay, great. You have a datajack, and your brain can talk to it, no problem.

You also have a skinlink-equipped commlink.

...

How does the datajack communicate with the commlink?

...

Let me answer that for you: either you run a physical cable between them ... or you plug a Wireless Adapter into the datajack (and don't use the skinlink capability of the commlink) ... or you skinlink the Datajack so that it can transmit ignals via skinlink.

Same thing goes for that Smartgun, too. And your Chameleon Suit. Etc.

EDIT: or, you know, how Tymeaus put it ...

Just don't skinlink your underwear.

That never works out.




-k

ALL internal Hardware is hardwired anyway. Burn out all Wireless in there. Yes, on the internal Comlink too.
And only connect to an external, disposable comlink via cable if you really really need wireless for something.
As for Smartlink: Yes, run a cable to the Datajack. It's how Bull did it when he was young some 20 Years ago.
Or you use the fragging Induction-Pad you get if you did not go the cheap-skate eye-ware route!
Or was that done away with completely?

I think the pads were "re"introduced via the 2050 book.

While wiring everything works, why not use skinlink?

why pay for something, especially in essence, if you can have, in essence, the same thing for free by simply declaring it when buying your ware in the first place?

Skinlink doesn't cost essence. It costs 50¥ per device - so for gun-and-link, 100¥.

It would cost more than 100¥ to run a wire from your eye to your hand, then add an induction pad to both your hand and the gun.

It would also cost more than 100¥ to install a datajack, and run a wire from it to your gun.

...

Hell. You don't even need the implant. Skinlink a pair of glasses, or even a pair of contact lenses, that have the Smartlink hardware installed. Skinlink the smartgun. Poof.

Well, that is if the user using the skinlink also was smart enough to slave the gun to the commlink regardless of non-wireless transmission. Some people just don't do that because of subskription limits.
Also, I meant that as a general piece of advice, not limited to ejecting one's magazine, because you are right: Why stop there?
And, well, yes, skinlink is still far more secure than wireless traffic.

Because it is much harder to splice into a wire running under your skin than find a way into a skinlink.