Spell name: Bug Zapper.
Class: Manipulation.
Type: Physical.
Range: Area (restricted target)
Duration: Sustained.
Effect: Restricted
Bug Zapper creates a field of electrostatic energy that zaps small insects like flys and mosquitoes. The spell can zap force times net hits insects per round, instantly killing them. The spell only targets insects, not arachnids such as spiders. Large insects (GM's discretion) and insect spirits are targeted by the spell but the electrical discharge is insufficient to damage such creatures, though infiltrating possession spirits may be revealed in this manner. Against large swarms such as locust plagues the spell may be overwhelmed through sheer numbers, with the GM deciding what effect if any it has in such a scenario.
Drain: Physical +1, Area +2, restricted targets (insects) -1, Sustained +0, Restricted effect (ineffective against targets larger than a beetle) -1. net drain 1/2 force + 1
So, what do we think?
Full Version: New Spell: Bug Zapper
What immediately comes to mind is the "One Less" and "Slaughter" species of spell.
Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
QUOTE (O'Ryan @ May 11 2013, 01:36 PM) 
What immediately comes to mind is the "One Less" and "Slaughter" species of spell.
Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
I thought about making it a combat spell, but the other forms of sustained damage dealing spells (EG elemental clouds, elemental walls, elemental auras) are all manipulation spells. I believe that Elemental cloud (Fire) is your sustained fireball, btw.
I think I want to be a magician and have this spell for Winnipeg in the summer.
Living on a flood plain sucks in a lot of ways! (And this is coming from a guy that lived next door to MUSKEG!)
Living on a flood plain sucks in a lot of ways! (And this is coming from a guy that lived next door to MUSKEG!)
QUOTE (O'Ryan @ May 10 2013, 10:36 PM)
What immediately comes to mind is the "One Less" and "Slaughter" species of spell.
Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
Yup, FuelDrop. Street Magic, page 162, under the heading "Combat Spells", "Combat spells are always Instant in duration; they may not be Sustained or Permanent."Slaughter Insect
Combat Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Damage: P
Duration: I
DV: (F/2) + 1
A custom version with sustained duration would have the same drain, (Though that does make me think of sustained fireballs... hmm) and seem to be significantly more useful, as I'm pretty sure a force low enough to kill insects would be well within buy-success range for drain tests, but could be amped up for pesky insect spirits.
(Street Magic 163 and 165)
On the other hand, a quick spell that came to mind:
Anti-Spirit Static
Manipulation Spell
Type: M
Range: LOS (Area)
Duration: S
DV: (F/2)+3
A variation on the Spirit Zapper spell (Street Magic, page 174), at +1 drain it functions like the Spirit Zapper spell but while any spirits remain in the area of the spell's effect they will take additional Physical damage equal to the spell's Force at the end of every Combat Turn. Materializing within the area of effect is treated the same as if coming in contact with spell and causes damage. It otherwise has no effect on dual natured beings or other astral forms, but will affect those possessed by spirits.
There is minor precedent for a sustained combat spell in War!... Grenade which states is sustained until it goes off at the end of the combat turn or a simple action is used by the caster to blow it. The important thing is that instantaneous damage effects are the sole province of combat spells. (flamethrower vs ignite... they do the same thing if your GM doesn't ignore the elemental secondary effects of fire. Flamethrower is instant combat spell though... while ignite is permenant/sustained manipulation).
Anyhow... one bit I'll add.
You're obviously patterning this off the 'spirit zapper' spell which is already restricted target. (it's also a favorite spell of mine). So the next step up is very restricted target. Generally this isn't 'bug' spirits... it would be 'roach spirit', or 'ant spirit'. Or you could do it with 'soldier spirits', that being a subtype common to almost all bug spirits.
Anti-spirit static... is broken. The zapper is a form of offensive mana barrier... barriers are only active at their surface/edge. They do not have an effect within the AOE they enclose. And yes soaking force direct damage with no test to resist taking the damage at all is broken.
The elemental cloud spells in War again are a good alternative here... manipulation... they create a cloud of elemental effect which functions as a suppressive fire zone. IE: it attacks everything in the AOE repeatedly and it gets to resist with a dodge & soak test. There's no reason you could not restrict the target to spirits and act accordingly.... Casting both spirit zapper to trap things... then casting the anti-spirit cloud spell to finish the job would actually be a pretty mean combo.
Anyhow... one bit I'll add.
You're obviously patterning this off the 'spirit zapper' spell which is already restricted target. (it's also a favorite spell of mine). So the next step up is very restricted target. Generally this isn't 'bug' spirits... it would be 'roach spirit', or 'ant spirit'. Or you could do it with 'soldier spirits', that being a subtype common to almost all bug spirits.
Anti-spirit static... is broken. The zapper is a form of offensive mana barrier... barriers are only active at their surface/edge. They do not have an effect within the AOE they enclose. And yes soaking force direct damage with no test to resist taking the damage at all is broken.
The elemental cloud spells in War again are a good alternative here... manipulation... they create a cloud of elemental effect which functions as a suppressive fire zone. IE: it attacks everything in the AOE repeatedly and it gets to resist with a dodge & soak test. There's no reason you could not restrict the target to spirits and act accordingly.... Casting both spirit zapper to trap things... then casting the anti-spirit cloud spell to finish the job would actually be a pretty mean combo.
I would examine Running Wild and the Swarm Rules which have rules around swarms and combat spells. This spell is worded differently than any other SR spell that I've seen in that it kills rather than doing damage.
A single insect, any damage would instantly kill it. Swarms have different mechanics because they gain a Body attribute above zero.
A single insect, any damage would instantly kill it. Swarms have different mechanics because they gain a Body attribute above zero.
"Electrostatic field" immediately made me think of Element Aura from Street Magic (p. 173). Posted here for reference, emphasis on the second paragraph mine:
It looks like what you've got here is basically the non-"elemental" version of Element Aura (since you don't specify elemental effects, which accounts for the 2-point Drain difference), so +1 from me. This may not be an issue either way, but if you wanted you could also reduce the Drain down to (Force/2) by making it a mana rather than a physical spell. It'll still affect living targets, and IMO it fits a little better with the "may detect bug spirits" possibility than a physical spell would.
Edit: The mental image I had while writing this was of a magically-powered bug zapper lamp. If you wanted to do something more "area denial"-like, the AoE spells mentioned above are probably better choices.
QUOTE
[Element] Aura (Environmental)
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold, Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155, SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.
Type: P • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 3
This spell creates a rippling aura of elemental energies around a subject’s body. Each element requires a different spell (Flame Aura, Electrical Aura, Cold Aura, etc.). This fiery aura does not affect the subject, but increase the DV of any melee attacks by the caster’s hits. Attacks are treated as Cold, Electricity, Fire, or some other elemental damage (see p. 155, SR4, and pp. 164–165 of this book), as appropriate to the aura, and are resisted with half Impact armor.
Any successful physical melee attack against the subject also means that the attacker must resist similar damage from the aura. The aura’s Damage Value equals the spell’s Force.
It looks like what you've got here is basically the non-"elemental" version of Element Aura (since you don't specify elemental effects, which accounts for the 2-point Drain difference), so +1 from me. This may not be an issue either way, but if you wanted you could also reduce the Drain down to (Force/2) by making it a mana rather than a physical spell. It'll still affect living targets, and IMO it fits a little better with the "may detect bug spirits" possibility than a physical spell would.
Edit: The mental image I had while writing this was of a magically-powered bug zapper lamp. If you wanted to do something more "area denial"-like, the AoE spells mentioned above are probably better choices.
The problem is it doesn't work like that... you need to read page 162-164.
Direct is in all ways better but only available to combat spells. Look at the chart... the only option available to manipulation spells are sustained Elemental effects which are generally inferior to actual combat spells. Elemental cloud for example
Manipulations are limited to providing elemental effects. They are not 'indirect combat spells'... they are elemental manipulations in and of their own right. So the spell constructed is not valid by the construction rules... you can't just drop the elemental effect from a sustained manipulation spell and still do damage.
Ignite as a manipulation is generally inferior to flamethrower combat spell... the sustained elemental cloud spells... work at suppressive fire... which means that the targets resist them with reaction + edge + counterspelling making it hard to make them hit. And when they do... they only do base force damage (not force + net hits since suppressive fire doesn't use net hits).
Direct is just a complete no go. For more drain... you do elemental damage and it's soaked with body + armor... but by reducing drain you can eliminate the damage soak completely (there is no resistance roll)... you don't see the problem in that logic.
Direct is in all ways better but only available to combat spells. Look at the chart... the only option available to manipulation spells are sustained Elemental effects which are generally inferior to actual combat spells. Elemental cloud for example
Manipulations are limited to providing elemental effects. They are not 'indirect combat spells'... they are elemental manipulations in and of their own right. So the spell constructed is not valid by the construction rules... you can't just drop the elemental effect from a sustained manipulation spell and still do damage.
Ignite as a manipulation is generally inferior to flamethrower combat spell... the sustained elemental cloud spells... work at suppressive fire... which means that the targets resist them with reaction + edge + counterspelling making it hard to make them hit. And when they do... they only do base force damage (not force + net hits since suppressive fire doesn't use net hits).
Direct is just a complete no go. For more drain... you do elemental damage and it's soaked with body + armor... but by reducing drain you can eliminate the damage soak completely (there is no resistance roll)... you don't see the problem in that logic.
OK, here is a challenge for you all: Create a spell that wards an area against biting insects such as mosquitos, to prevent them ruining your camping trip. Barriers are a no go as they cover an inferior area.
Go!
Go!
There's no reason for this to be a spell. For a "drain" of a couple nuyen you can buy a can of insect repellant, apply it, and then enjoy a "duration" of several hours. Available almost anywhere, comes in small discrete cans or even foldable wipes, the technological solution is so simple, I have no idea why anyone would need a more complicated magical version.
What possible reason would someone have for creating a spell like this? It's a waste of effort and magical resources, as well as having no real basis in magical theory. "But what if we're stuck in the wild and have nowhere to get more insect repellant?" There are natural insect repellants - use your Survival skill to harvest some appropriate plants and prepare a salve or lotion.
~Umi
What possible reason would someone have for creating a spell like this? It's a waste of effort and magical resources, as well as having no real basis in magical theory. "But what if we're stuck in the wild and have nowhere to get more insect repellant?" There are natural insect repellants - use your Survival skill to harvest some appropriate plants and prepare a salve or lotion.
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 12 2013, 10:44 PM)
There's no reason for this to be a spell. For a "drain" of a couple nuyen you can buy a can of insect repellant, apply it, and then enjoy a "duration" of several hours. Available almost anywhere, comes in small discrete cans or even foldable wipes, the technological solution is so simple, I have no idea why anyone would need a more complicated magical version.
What possible reason would someone have for creating a spell like this? It's a waste of effort and magical resources, as well as having no real basis in magical theory. "But what if we're stuck in the wild and have nowhere to get more insect repellant?" There are natural insect repellants - use your Survival skill to harvest some appropriate plants and prepare a salve or lotion.
~Umi
What possible reason would someone have for creating a spell like this? It's a waste of effort and magical resources, as well as having no real basis in magical theory. "But what if we're stuck in the wild and have nowhere to get more insect repellant?" There are natural insect repellants - use your Survival skill to harvest some appropriate plants and prepare a salve or lotion.
~Umi
Because they can. People will use and abuse new technology for everything, so why not magic?
Longish post... since I started to get very rules lawyery looking at all the problems with individual options... but the only option I can see is an environmental manipulation. Specifically the 'environmental cloud' spell from War with a restricted target.
Okay... by process of elimination. Your only option is manipulation. Your range requirement can't have anything done about it... as all of these are going to have a Force meter radius. The only spell type with extended AOE option are detection spells (and those only tell you just how very badly outnumbered you are... bring on the paranoia!). Your best bet there is to keep the drain low so you can cast at higher force and withhold dice to increase the AOE size at casting time (so don't need a lot of successes to work)... fortunately most little bugs aren't going to have much in the way of resistance stats so 2 or 3 successes should be almost guaranteed to work for even the nastier specimens.
Another problem is your targeting restriction... "magic is not intelligent. Mana only does as it is told when manipulated by Magical skills such as Sorcery. Magical effects do not make independent decisions." Targetting all insects, or even only say ants is an option... but at what point are you requiring magic to exercise intelligence in it's targetting decision. If I cast slay troll on a human... the spell doesn't decide not to work on the human it tries to work on the human as I cast it.. it simply doesn't work (some intentional part of the spell design tries to force a square peg through a round hole and the whole thing fizzles).
Combat spells: do instantaneous damage once... not sustained
Detection spells: yeah... nuff said
Health spells: generally must be touch range and are never AOE
Illusion spells: Outside of a physical illusion which makes it appear spiders are crawling over everything (which will attract some insects rather than repel). Not overly useful... Hypothetically a mana illusion which makes insects in the AOE sense that there is a predator in your direction in which case... they might continue acting normally... try to skitter away.. or hide and go to ground.
That only leaves manipulations. Here you most likely don't want to need to exercise active mental control.
4 types... Environmental manipulations... an option. mental manipultions... also an option. physical manipulations not so much they tend to require active control. mana manipulations , not really gonna help either. Also remember spells don't have an intelligence beyond... is this a valid spell target.. or more properly try to work on all targets in AOE and if it's not the right type of target... it just doesn't work.
First general targeting options..
Restricted (-1 drain) or very restricted target(-2). Your GM might allow 'vermin' as a targetting option as well though that's a little more nebulous as the definition of what is vermin varies and is subjective. Are rats vermin to a rat shaman? What about an animal rights type. Remember no matter the tradition, the actual spell form is the same, they only record them differently or use different mental process to produce the same result dependent on the tradition. So it gets close to the spell needs to make an objective decision problem.
Anyhow... some useful targetting distinctions... 'insectae' a bit limited... won't get spiders, ticks, snails, slugs... etc. But we can step it up the animal classification tree... 'Sectopods' is perfect, it'll cover insects, spiders, ticks, centipedes, lobsters, crabs... etc. (though not slugs or snails, mollusks are a seperate order, and they don't really bite so much as are sometimes poisonous).
You might get a -2 drain for that for very restricted... depending on if you can sell the GM that 'critters' is a valid step for a -1 drain restricted target and you're making it even more restrictive.
Mental manipulation: Possible but has some problems... see the end list of problems.
Must be mana, which brings up an old side argument... I cast a mana AoE I 'see' but don't recongize the camouflaged target. Does the spell work? (I say yes, it's an AoE with higher drain... for a single target spell I must target the spell... but non-targetted AOE should hit everything in the area whether my mind realizes I see it or not; otherwise aoes are no different than multicasting single target spells at once). Reason i bring this up... do you see all the biting insects? What about the one sneaking up to you from behind! Unless you have eyes in the back of your head you don't even see it.... drat!
But in any case...
Mana spell (+0), Sustained (+0), Area (+2)
Very Restricted Target (-2, or maybe -1 if you can't sell the GM on sectopods).
Mental manipulation (+0)
Restricted effect (-1): Rather than controlling their thoughts... only impart a single compulsion on the chitinous bastards, to move away from the center of the AoE.
Total drain... -1 or 0 drain code.
Other problems... the spell is targetted on all insects initially in LOS within the AOE at time of casting... after that is merely sustained. With a cumulative resistance roll.. so the chitinous bastards will eventually resist and come back! And does nothing to stop 'new arrivals' or the ones hiding behind that tree. Drats... such an elegant idea...
That leaves only environmental manipulations... indirect and elemental... which will affect things you can't see within the AOE.
Read the element cloud spell in War... it would setup a suppressive fire zone. Though to be honest, can you restrict targets on those. (flamethrower... can you make a troll only version... remember it invokes an indirect magical effect a ball of fire which flies from you to the target... it's magic... so maybe it can 'magically' leave the human unscathed while flaming the troll. Magic being magic...
Going with that.. the cloud spells have a drain code of +5 (ouch)... But an appropriate element like sound, blast, or electricity... (hehe a magical bug zapper really). Shouldn't obscure the area... and with a very restricted targetting. Create a suppressive fire effect which only targets chitinous bastards (sectopods). It will have a sustained effect on both old targets, and new arrivals wandering into the AOE. It does not require the caster to 'see' the target to operate.
Okay... by process of elimination. Your only option is manipulation. Your range requirement can't have anything done about it... as all of these are going to have a Force meter radius. The only spell type with extended AOE option are detection spells (and those only tell you just how very badly outnumbered you are... bring on the paranoia!). Your best bet there is to keep the drain low so you can cast at higher force and withhold dice to increase the AOE size at casting time (so don't need a lot of successes to work)... fortunately most little bugs aren't going to have much in the way of resistance stats so 2 or 3 successes should be almost guaranteed to work for even the nastier specimens.
Another problem is your targeting restriction... "magic is not intelligent. Mana only does as it is told when manipulated by Magical skills such as Sorcery. Magical effects do not make independent decisions." Targetting all insects, or even only say ants is an option... but at what point are you requiring magic to exercise intelligence in it's targetting decision. If I cast slay troll on a human... the spell doesn't decide not to work on the human it tries to work on the human as I cast it.. it simply doesn't work (some intentional part of the spell design tries to force a square peg through a round hole and the whole thing fizzles).
Combat spells: do instantaneous damage once... not sustained
Detection spells: yeah... nuff said
Health spells: generally must be touch range and are never AOE
Illusion spells: Outside of a physical illusion which makes it appear spiders are crawling over everything (which will attract some insects rather than repel). Not overly useful... Hypothetically a mana illusion which makes insects in the AOE sense that there is a predator in your direction in which case... they might continue acting normally... try to skitter away.. or hide and go to ground.
That only leaves manipulations. Here you most likely don't want to need to exercise active mental control.
4 types... Environmental manipulations... an option. mental manipultions... also an option. physical manipulations not so much they tend to require active control. mana manipulations , not really gonna help either. Also remember spells don't have an intelligence beyond... is this a valid spell target.. or more properly try to work on all targets in AOE and if it's not the right type of target... it just doesn't work.
First general targeting options..
Restricted (-1 drain) or very restricted target(-2). Your GM might allow 'vermin' as a targetting option as well though that's a little more nebulous as the definition of what is vermin varies and is subjective. Are rats vermin to a rat shaman? What about an animal rights type. Remember no matter the tradition, the actual spell form is the same, they only record them differently or use different mental process to produce the same result dependent on the tradition. So it gets close to the spell needs to make an objective decision problem.
Anyhow... some useful targetting distinctions... 'insectae' a bit limited... won't get spiders, ticks, snails, slugs... etc. But we can step it up the animal classification tree... 'Sectopods' is perfect, it'll cover insects, spiders, ticks, centipedes, lobsters, crabs... etc. (though not slugs or snails, mollusks are a seperate order, and they don't really bite so much as are sometimes poisonous).
You might get a -2 drain for that for very restricted... depending on if you can sell the GM that 'critters' is a valid step for a -1 drain restricted target and you're making it even more restrictive.
Mental manipulation: Possible but has some problems... see the end list of problems.
Must be mana, which brings up an old side argument... I cast a mana AoE I 'see' but don't recongize the camouflaged target. Does the spell work? (I say yes, it's an AoE with higher drain... for a single target spell I must target the spell... but non-targetted AOE should hit everything in the area whether my mind realizes I see it or not; otherwise aoes are no different than multicasting single target spells at once). Reason i bring this up... do you see all the biting insects? What about the one sneaking up to you from behind! Unless you have eyes in the back of your head you don't even see it.... drat!
But in any case...
Mana spell (+0), Sustained (+0), Area (+2)
Very Restricted Target (-2, or maybe -1 if you can't sell the GM on sectopods).
Mental manipulation (+0)
Restricted effect (-1): Rather than controlling their thoughts... only impart a single compulsion on the chitinous bastards, to move away from the center of the AoE.
Total drain... -1 or 0 drain code.
Other problems... the spell is targetted on all insects initially in LOS within the AOE at time of casting... after that is merely sustained. With a cumulative resistance roll.. so the chitinous bastards will eventually resist and come back! And does nothing to stop 'new arrivals' or the ones hiding behind that tree. Drats... such an elegant idea...
That leaves only environmental manipulations... indirect and elemental... which will affect things you can't see within the AOE.
Read the element cloud spell in War... it would setup a suppressive fire zone. Though to be honest, can you restrict targets on those. (flamethrower... can you make a troll only version... remember it invokes an indirect magical effect a ball of fire which flies from you to the target... it's magic... so maybe it can 'magically' leave the human unscathed while flaming the troll. Magic being magic...
Going with that.. the cloud spells have a drain code of +5 (ouch)... But an appropriate element like sound, blast, or electricity... (hehe a magical bug zapper really). Shouldn't obscure the area... and with a very restricted targetting. Create a suppressive fire effect which only targets chitinous bastards (sectopods). It will have a sustained effect on both old targets, and new arrivals wandering into the AOE. It does not require the caster to 'see' the target to operate.
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 11 2013, 11:26 PM)
The problem is it doesn't work like that... you need to read page 162-164.
Direct is in all ways better but only available to combat spells. Look at the chart... the only option available to manipulation spells are sustained Elemental effects which are generally inferior to actual combat spells. Elemental cloud for example
Manipulations are limited to providing elemental effects. They are not 'indirect combat spells'... they are elemental manipulations in and of their own right. So the spell constructed is not valid by the construction rules... you can't just drop the elemental effect from a sustained manipulation spell and still do damage.
Ignite as a manipulation is generally inferior to flamethrower combat spell... the sustained elemental cloud spells... work at suppressive fire... which means that the targets resist them with reaction + edge + counterspelling making it hard to make them hit. And when they do... they only do base force damage (not force + net hits since suppressive fire doesn't use net hits).
Direct is just a complete no go. For more drain... you do elemental damage and it's soaked with body + armor... but by reducing drain you can eliminate the damage soak completely (there is no resistance roll)... you don't see the problem in that logic.
Direct is in all ways better but only available to combat spells. Look at the chart... the only option available to manipulation spells are sustained Elemental effects which are generally inferior to actual combat spells. Elemental cloud for example
Manipulations are limited to providing elemental effects. They are not 'indirect combat spells'... they are elemental manipulations in and of their own right. So the spell constructed is not valid by the construction rules... you can't just drop the elemental effect from a sustained manipulation spell and still do damage.
Ignite as a manipulation is generally inferior to flamethrower combat spell... the sustained elemental cloud spells... work at suppressive fire... which means that the targets resist them with reaction + edge + counterspelling making it hard to make them hit. And when they do... they only do base force damage (not force + net hits since suppressive fire doesn't use net hits).
Direct is just a complete no go. For more drain... you do elemental damage and it's soaked with body + armor... but by reducing drain you can eliminate the damage soak completely (there is no resistance roll)... you don't see the problem in that logic.
I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying, here. When I say "bug zapper lamp" I mean the ones that bugs fly into and get electrocuted, basically like a stationary taser. The Element Aura spell explicitly says that someone who lands a successful melee attack on the user (i.e. touches them) suffers damage. I agree that it's not "direct" by the definition in pp. 162-164, but when you already have a spell that works by that method, how does restricting its effects make it stop working?
Now, in terms of what's more effective when it comes to applying damage, I completely agree that combat spells are the way to go. I'm just not sure whether you're saying "elemental Manipulation spells are inferior" or "elemental Manipulation spells simply don't function". The latter seems a little silly when we have several spells that function in exactly that way.
I'm directly referring to the history of the game...
Originally, what we now know as indirect combat spells... were elemental manipulation spells. They manipulated an indirect elemental effect to do damage. They were changed to combat spells... because the 'manipulation' school of magic was (and still is) too expansive. (people used to make 'aspected' magicians who could only do manipulations and were almost as powerful as full blown mages... because they had access to pretty much everything... instantaneous spell damage, all kinds of utility, and mind manipulations... very little loss). Anything approaching instantaneous elemental damage has largely been removed from the manipulation school of magic, the only thing left is sustained spells (because combat spells aren't sustained) which makes them poor substitutes for
Elemental auras are a bit odd... yes when things hit you they take the damage... which is soaked (which makes it a fine pick for a personal bug zapper since insects have practically no soak... though by the time they're zapped they will have bit/stung you). It creates a sustained effect but the delivery of that effect is contingent on the other guys actions... or you successfully making an unarmed attack. It's not a direct spell attack as most would understand it.
It causes damage... yes, but that damage is soaked by body + armor as normal. IE: if a troll hits your force 4 elemental aura with his fist and he soaks the damage down to nothing with his ap-half impact armor plus body it's a non-event. A direct spell does not work like this... and direct spells have never been in the history of game been manipulations. Exactly how is the damage 'soaked' before being applied to the damage track? So not only do you reduce drain, but you also drastically increase the damage inflicted by this.
What you're talking about is more akin to taking a Physical barrier spell. (not a mana barrier.. those are a different class of spells altogether despite the name similarity)... slapping a restricted target, and an elemental effect on it to turn it into an 'offensive physical barrier. Now any bugs which wander into it... would get zapped no attack roll needed... though any bugs enclosed in the area would not. Barrier spells are only active at their edges....
The 'elemental cloud' spells in war are different... they attack everything in their AOE repeatedly... for as long as they're sustained with attack rolls. But compare that to a fireball.. fireball you make the attack against reaction + counterspelling, net hits are added to the damage... then things get soaked. Against the cloud since it's a suppresive fire attack... it's reaction + edge + counterspelling and it's purely a success test you're either hit for force damage or not and then proceed to soak it. So once again it's inferior to the combat spell... except in it's utility in providing a sustained damage AOE.
Originally, what we now know as indirect combat spells... were elemental manipulation spells. They manipulated an indirect elemental effect to do damage. They were changed to combat spells... because the 'manipulation' school of magic was (and still is) too expansive. (people used to make 'aspected' magicians who could only do manipulations and were almost as powerful as full blown mages... because they had access to pretty much everything... instantaneous spell damage, all kinds of utility, and mind manipulations... very little loss). Anything approaching instantaneous elemental damage has largely been removed from the manipulation school of magic, the only thing left is sustained spells (because combat spells aren't sustained) which makes them poor substitutes for
Elemental auras are a bit odd... yes when things hit you they take the damage... which is soaked (which makes it a fine pick for a personal bug zapper since insects have practically no soak... though by the time they're zapped they will have bit/stung you). It creates a sustained effect but the delivery of that effect is contingent on the other guys actions... or you successfully making an unarmed attack. It's not a direct spell attack as most would understand it.
It causes damage... yes, but that damage is soaked by body + armor as normal. IE: if a troll hits your force 4 elemental aura with his fist and he soaks the damage down to nothing with his ap-half impact armor plus body it's a non-event. A direct spell does not work like this... and direct spells have never been in the history of game been manipulations. Exactly how is the damage 'soaked' before being applied to the damage track? So not only do you reduce drain, but you also drastically increase the damage inflicted by this.
What you're talking about is more akin to taking a Physical barrier spell. (not a mana barrier.. those are a different class of spells altogether despite the name similarity)... slapping a restricted target, and an elemental effect on it to turn it into an 'offensive physical barrier. Now any bugs which wander into it... would get zapped no attack roll needed... though any bugs enclosed in the area would not. Barrier spells are only active at their edges....
The 'elemental cloud' spells in war are different... they attack everything in their AOE repeatedly... for as long as they're sustained with attack rolls. But compare that to a fireball.. fireball you make the attack against reaction + counterspelling, net hits are added to the damage... then things get soaked. Against the cloud since it's a suppresive fire attack... it's reaction + edge + counterspelling and it's purely a success test you're either hit for force damage or not and then proceed to soak it. So once again it's inferior to the combat spell... except in it's utility in providing a sustained damage AOE.
Aha, thank you for clearing that up. I've only played SR4, none of the previous editions, so this is very informative. 
QUOTE (Falconer @ May 12 2013, 08:49 PM)
I'm directly referring to the history of the game...
Originally, what we now know as indirect combat spells... were elemental manipulation spells. <snip>
Originally, what we now know as indirect combat spells... were elemental manipulation spells. <snip>
Actually Falconer, if you are going historically, they started as combat spells. Fire Dart, Fire Missile, Fire Bolt, and everyone's favorite Hellblast. All combat spells in 1st Ed and 2nd Ed. 1st Ed Grimoire added damaging manipulations. 2nd Ed. had both in the main book. 3rd Ed is where they were dropped from the combat spell list and went straight manipulations.
I popped my old copy of the grimoire out, as well as 1e and 2e, and 3e... you're only partially correct on this point. The only elemental manipulations classified as combat are the classics 'fireball' and fire spells. Ignite was still a manipulation.
Acid splash, Toxic wave, thunderclap, even flame burst!.... and such were still all manipulations. Not combat spells.
3rd moved them all the ones which weren't manipulations to also be manipulations you are correct.
So yes I was very slightly wrong as regards 'fireball's history.. but I was dead on as regards the other elements
Acid splash, Toxic wave, thunderclap, even flame burst!.... and such were still all manipulations. Not combat spells.
3rd moved them all the ones which weren't manipulations to also be manipulations you are correct.
So yes I was very slightly wrong as regards 'fireball's history.. but I was dead on as regards the other elements
Okay, if you absolutely have to have a spell for this, a sustained illusion that makes insects in an area falsely sense insect repellant would be nice and simple.
If you absolutely have to actually zap the bugs dead, Elemental Aura or Elemental Wall should do just fine. I had thought there was an Offensive Physical Barrier to go along with the Offensive Mana Barrier, but I guess I was confused because I can find no trace of such.
~Umi
If you absolutely have to actually zap the bugs dead, Elemental Aura or Elemental Wall should do just fine. I had thought there was an Offensive Physical Barrier to go along with the Offensive Mana Barrier, but I guess I was confused because I can find no trace of such.
~Umi
QUOTE (Umidori @ May 13 2013, 02:49 AM)
Okay, if you absolutely have to have a spell for this, a sustained illusion that makes insects in an area falsely sense insect repellant would be nice and simple.
If you absolutely have to actually zap the bugs dead, Elemental Aura or Elemental Wall should do just fine. I had thought there was an Offensive Physical Barrier to go along with the Offensive Mana Barrier, but I guess I was confused because I can find no trace of such.
~Umi
If you absolutely have to actually zap the bugs dead, Elemental Aura or Elemental Wall should do just fine. I had thought there was an Offensive Physical Barrier to go along with the Offensive Mana Barrier, but I guess I was confused because I can find no trace of such.
~Umi
I found that odd too. But, there is no reason why there can't be one.
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