I'm planning on making a new character to play around with, and I'm toying with a new idea: what if I have this guy sell out the team? Say he's a long-term runner for Aztech (who my group pissed off) and they sent him to infiltrate the group. He might do a few runs with them, but the second they go against anything the big A has control over, they get a little call from him detailing what they're hitting when...

The main problems are as follows: First, I am the "main" GM. I got the group together, and taught them about SR and RPing in general. However, I have since then "trained" two GMs, who are very competant. The thing here is that I'm not sure if I could tell them, becuase they usually run while I GM, and I would be destroying the group they're a part of. So, it would be a really nasty surprise
for everyone.

Second, it would most likely kill at least some of the group, and these are all their first characters. I don't want to be that mean, but it's such an interesting idea, I can't let go of it...

Opinions? Ideas? Flames?

If you're worried about killing their first characters, you aren't evil. Get over it and bake them some cookies.

Also, some groups may not fin d that fun at all, but frustrating. This can lead to them not enjoying the game. Depends on your group.

So long as it advances the plot, promotes fun in gaming, and allows for meaningful RP experiences, there's nothing wrong with that plan. If you have them walk into a room next session, say "roll body," and have them all die in a giant explosion (and then explain, "heh heh heh, my character sold you guys out. isn't that cool?"), then you've given everyone a sour taste for gaming, and upset a bunch of folks who wanted to give SR a chance.

So you could give your players clues-- "Bob" is not at the meet on time, "Bob" forgets the password and gives a "known" Azzie password, "Bob" suddenly comes into a lot of money, etc. That way players can be proactive. Maybe in selling out the runners, the Azzies have some evil plan for the players (much more entertaining, though less realistic than a sudden case of lead poisoning) from which they can escape.

For whose glory do you GM? Your, or your players'? Is there a difference, if you make good GM choices?

Hmmm, I like that idea, Rangerjoe. See if they can actually catch on to the spy. I still wonder if I should tell the GM, though.

Tell the GM, mate. In most circles, if the GM doesn't know about something, it just ain't real.

I'm discussing this idea with a player of mine, who's character has actually been around for a while but on hiatus for several months. Maybe he's coming back with the mission of killing or disabling the replacement badass. How I'd like to see it played out is for the returning character to struggle with his divided loyalties. Old PC friends that aren't in danger but would feel betrayed, plus making enemies out of the newer runners, versus big payoffs from his old (pre-character generation) friends.
I guess my point is that even if your new character joins the group with the intention of selling them out, he could change his mind.... and where does that lead the team...?

I would say no. I think PC vs. PC combat is a Bad Thing ™. It's far too easy for a PC to kill other PCs due to, what I have seen to be, an inherent trust amoung players; a trust that, I feel, is integral to a powerful, fun gaming experience (as always, YMMV).

For example, if the PCs trust the spy, then it's too easy for the spy to split them up and take them out one at a time. Granted, the first one he doesn't kill can always spill the beans, but the spy could very easily just poison the pizza he gets the team when they celebrate a job well done and, boom, they all die (assuming they don't pass body rolls, etc. It's just an example).

My suggestion would be to have an NPC become a member of the group. Perhaps this NPC is required to go along with the team on a run. Then, after that run, he likes the team and likes the job so he joins up. Next, the new player can play the spy, but have him kill the NPC first and/or only. Especially if the NPC was a turncoat against a specific organization.

For clarity: The original team has runners X, Y, and Z. They've been hired to enter a warehouse owned by the Azzies but it has a sophisticated security system that runner A can bypass as he was previously extracted from the Azzies for just this purpose. Runner A then joins with X, Y, and Z for the job but is only an NPC with a specific purpose. After the job, Mr. Johnson has nothing else for runner A so he hangs out with X, Y, and Z. The Azzies, however, send a hitman after the team. This hitman is your spy PC. The spy PC could then target and take out the NPC runner A without making any of the players taking it personally, althought their characters might.

Again, YMMV, but -- as Mr. Horse says -- no sir, I don't like it.

If it's a casual game and no one's heavily into roleplaying, then, yes, PC v. PC combat is generally bad. If it's a very heavy roleplaying game, go with what works in character, and that's just life. That's really all it comes down to. And if a GM decides that a character died in a way not beneficial to the story, it's always within his power to make him one very lucky (and somewhat alive) bastard.

The big question is can the other players handle it. Killing/betraying other characters in a game where people tend to at least somewhat trust the other players can be bad for you on a level beyond the game itself. If nothing else, you might find that you never have a character trusted again.

I generally run the games for us, but on occassion I have played. One such occassion was in a situation similar to the ones described in this thread. We had fun with it, but I admit the players were on to me from moment one. It was very difficult for me to orchestrate the events that eventually led to them being captured and subjected the Arcology shut down. I also ended up eating some heavy caliber lead. Heh.

Bah. An evil GM would use the spy to help Aztechnology screw the runners and the J(s) who set up the runs against Aztech for a while, and exploit the intelligence they collected when running against other corps. Then, only kill them when they are no longer useful. Like S-K's SOP.

But I'd also stretch out the situation for them to figure it out if they're really clever. (Hell, Alias did this with Jenny Garner's character for a season and a half, and the new double agent for at least half of this one.)

Just killing the PCs is lame. If Aztech wanted to kill them, well... Eh. Neighborhoods explode all the time. What're you gonna do?

Several good points. I personally like the idea of red herrings in this kind of situation. I've had a plan for a while to have a "mole" as it were among the players -- I talk with one player privately and have him sell out the rest of the team. Meanwhile, a new NPC shows up just about the time things start getting weird (the opponents have weird intel they shouldn't have, contacts go missing, stuff like that). This makes the playerss immediately suspect the NPC as a PC would never sell out the team. This is, of course, metagame thinking and one of the reasons I want to run this adventure.

My plan for this was during Universal Brotherhood (new players, don't know the backstory ), have one of the PCs actually be a bug. Then, when the Big Showdown happens that the traitor shows his hand, the traitor immediately becomes an NPC and the player takes over the Red Herring NPC as his new character.

One thing I made sure to plan out was the discussion afterwards -- why the player sold them out, why I allowed it as a GM, why they shouldn't take it personally, etc. When a group that are friends outside the game, this sort of thing can be taken in stride. But if there are players that don't know each other outside the game, things can get tense as the players get angry at the traitor and/or GM. Make sure you explain everything to them and make sure there's no hard feelings.

Also, in a situation like this, it's almost guaranteed at least one PC will die. If not, the traitor sucked. Just try to make sure the deaths of the PCs are fun and they go out in glory. It takes the sting out of losing a character if you know that character died to save the rest of the team/take out the bad guy/save the girl/save the guy/whatever.

The Abstruse One

Talk to the GM bepore you do anything too drastic, but I like the idea. Start by telling him you have some things planned based on earlier things they've done, and ask him if he is okay with helping you executing the char... ehrm I mean the plan.

For instance, your 'spy' gets the mission to trap the runners so they can be used for a special ritual sacrifice. Have the character lead the runners into the trap, turn on them, and get them caught. They should have a chance to avoid it - leave clues that something is amiss, like RangerJoe said. Have the runners find something belonging to RangerJoe that has Azzie ties. For instance, in one book it says that Aztechnology has their own versions of all the SecureTech clothing (I think it's the Aztlan book) - maybe he wears a Secure Ultra-Vest of azzie manufacture.

Once they are caught, they should get the opportunity to escape and fight their way out. Maybe a rookie blood shaman disapproves of the ritual and helps the team. Maybe they 'just' loose their gear and have to make a running battle out of the area (say a power site on NAN soil).

I think it comes down to how other players handle it. would htey get po'ed? Deffinatly there should be some clues, so they're not completely blind sided. Do not tell the other GM's. when they're runnig the ship, play it straight. There's precedence for this in litterature, like Agatha Christie's The murder of Roger Ackroyd when it's revealed that the narrator is the murderer.

In our group, we run different characters with different GM's so there isn't this overlap and worry

I find some times I have to restrain myself from killing certain PC"s...specially when they are idiots in the redmond and start talking trash to every one.


But street Justice has prevailed.

Two major points I'd like to make.

1. Always talk about it with the GM(s). If it's an orchestrated plot to further the overall story, it's a good thing. If it's just a rogue player killing PCs 'cause he can and claims it as "good roleplaying," it's a bad thing.

2. If/when the time for betrayal comes, do it in such a way that it gives the other player characters a chance. Have the spy set them up for an ambush, let the other players catch you sending some spy information (thus giving them a heads-up before the guns start blazing), or otherwise allow them a chance to react. Just murdering them in cold blood is not only boring, but completely unfair. Clutch on to Shadowrun's gritty feeling all you like, but it's still a game.

Personally, if I were playing a character like this, I would lean towards setting the players up for an ambush and then "playing along" with them as they get attacked (taking pains to only use blanks when shooting at the "bad guys" and whatnot). That way, if the ambush failed, you'd still have a trusted position within the team and could continue to set them up until they either catch you or they get toasted. I'd save the personal attacks until the last, desperate battle when it becomes obvious that they're losing... few things could be cooler than that very last scene when you walk up to the only living but mortally wounded character, pull out your gun, smile, then blow their brains out. At that point it doesn't really matter who's pulling the trigger -- they were dead anyway.

Fewer chances for personal grievences and bitter feelings amongst the other players that way.

Bah that's not evil!

I had a player who wanted to have a very expensive flaw he knew nothing about. "GM Surprise" we call it. So I made HIM the Aztechnology plant. He was one of their best agents, who had volunteered to infiltrate the group.

One of his contacts was a talismonger. Every time he went to the Talismonger he was actually going to a dark back room and having the personality mod chip removed. He would then become "himself" again and promptly tell Aztech everything that was going on. By the time he was done the chip had been uploaded with smoe stock memories of "another trip to the talsimonger" they gave him the materials that went with the memory and sent him on his merry way, reactivated.

The party never figured out why Aztech was always one step ahead of them. Till the last run when they broke into a very secret little Aztech compound and the decker accessed the files, read them, jacked out and promptly filled the mage with all the lead he could find.

The Mage, who never had a clue, read the file afterwards.

" You bastard. " He said to me as he realized what I'd been up to all this time.
" You God damned bastard. "

I just smiled and said " When you make a deal with the devil, be prepared to pay the price."

From that day onward, he always picked his own disadvantages instead of letting me do it, clever him.

Sunday

BASTLOLROFLSHHSNS!!!

and for those that like it word for word

*blinks and stares, then laughs out loud, rolling on floor laughing so hard his sides nearly split!!!*

Sunday Gamer, that's great.

Generally, I agree with Crimson Dude. You can have your guy spy, but for a long while (4+ runs) have him just reporting ahead of the group, so Aztechnology can prepare themselves. The run goes sour somehow, or they keep returning with the wrong information, something like that. If the Azzies want the group dead, there's no getting around that. They'd do better using their mole to use the group for their own purposes (and for free!) Then, at the end, they can kill off the group, but by that time the group should at least be suspicious.

Oh, or another idea... The mole gets too fond for the group, and decides to sit on the fence. He sets things up so the group doesn't succeed, but also is working to make sure they aren't killed either. That way, if the group gets whacked, it's not totally your fault, or if they find out, they have an RP judgement call to make....

Sunday: Thats Fantastic!!

I'm assuming this cat was new to RPing?

"GM's Surprise" as a flaw? Sucker!!

"Okay you took GM surprise as a 6 point flaw. Feel free to add those points anywhere you see fit within the Creation Rules"

"So, whats the flaw?"

"Eh? Oh, I'm feeling lazy so I don't have anything planned..."

"Sweet!"

"...so I want you to go out back and crush your own nuts with a hammer and we'll call it even."

The GM Surprise is a standard disad we use in Hero System. It just means the GM buys the disadvantage for you and doesn't tell you what it is. We also tend to think of people who take "Gm surprise" as being suicidal bastards who deserve what they get. =)

Sunday.

"GM Surprise" sounds an awful lot like hunted amnesiacs.

Heh.



YES, I AM TALKING TO YOU, MONKEY!