Hey guys,

I recently started GMing Shadowrun 4th ed, in the 2050 setting (in Seattle).
I have a little "probelm" in the fact that one of my player is not really enjoying his PC, right now (at least in the only session we had).

The PCs were :
- a "fallen" Yakuza daughter, with no relation with her father anymore, street-sam with many contacts (played by a shadowrun veteran with previous editions).
- a Rigger, with both a heavily modded vehicle (but with no weapon) and 2 drones (a little spy one, and a weaponized one), old smuggler for the yakuzas and friend of the above PC (played by a friend of the above player, with some Sahdowrun knowledge).
- a Shaman, clearly optimized in magic in general but without many things outside. Versatile enough with his magic to be useful in most situations (played by a shadowrun veteran, 4th ed and others).
- a mercenary, heavily cybered, with many weapons, and some external skills and contacts. Mostly useful in combat, and not useless outside of it (played by a Shadowrun neawbie, who apparently liked the one-shot, where their plan was smooth enough not to fire a single round).
- a Phys Adept, the sample character of the 2050 book. He is unarmed combat oriented, with infiltration as a side-skill (the player is a friend of the mercenary's player, and that was his first session of Shadowrun too).

This last player didn't really enjoyed the oen-shot. He told me he felt like he was not really useful outside of combat situations, and the fact is, in the only situation he "handled" things (neutralize an ennemy, who was already under the shaman's influence and walking alone outside his motel at 7AM), half the party could have done it.
He also told me that having nearly no gear was kind of disappointing, but I told him he was kind of an advantage (having nothing to let go when entering the airport, for exemple), ... don't know whether it's really a problem...
Another point worth be noted, he was really happy to be able to get a BMW Blitzen from his previous owner (a friend of the above mentionned neutralized ennemy); both for the "I got a bike" side and the "wow, this one is nice" side (when the veterans told him it is really a nice one and when I showed him a picture of it).


He played the Sample Adept because i'm quite a noob at Shadowrun (it was my first time GMing SR, as you can see from the other threads), and I didn't really catched the "thing" of the adepts. I spent some time studying different things I could find about them yesterday, but can't really figure what are the real archetypes behind them...
I want to try and show him 3 or 4 different home-made samples of what he could be, for him to choose.

So here is the real thing :
What can a (Physical, or half physical) Adept do ?
Given that the Shaman is "bad" at assensing (only 7 dice pool), how would it be possible to give the Adept some talent in this without really inpeding on the combat aspect ?

I feel like he may like a "Robert Downey Jr's Sherlock Holmes" feel for his adept : being a strong melee fighter, focusing on weak points of the ennemy (one of the Martial Art focuses on this IIRC), and having the skills necessary to track down someone, follow them unseen, and mostly use one or two adept powers (metamagic ?) to find things other peoples CAN'T find ...
How possible is that ? (metamagic psychometry ?)
Would there be a Mentor spirit with this concept in mind ?
(I know they are just examples, but I don't really trust myself in making a balanced one... The owl may be the closest to what is mecanically useful)

Do you have any other idea of what would be really useful in the party that an adept could do ?

The Metamagic Cognition seemed nice for an outside-of-combat utility metamagic, to make the adept usefull in a wide variety of skills (getting a little basic formation in many skills, or looking for a quality that would boost the "default" dice pool, combo-ing with cognition to get a high attribute score when needed); then I read the 9DV for a 3 points shift... Is there a way to reduce this damage or enhance his recovering, so that it could become his main skilling ability ?

Finally, the party lacked some DataSearch and general computer-side skills. I don't want to be "your mates said the party lacked this particular skill last time, so I strongly suggest your character max it" type of guy, but is there a classic (half-phys) adept with high logic and a fluffed high value in computer skills ?

That's all folks !



PS:As before, my english is not very good, as it's not my native language... So excuse me if some sentences are not really understandable. Tell me and I'll try my best to correct this

I play a cybered social adept with a sprinkle of PhysAD powers and he's the party's B&E specialist. Adepts don't have to be black and white, even if you're following a specific Way imho.

As for the lack of Datasearch and computery skills, you can simply have an NPC tag along for those purposes or pay a hacker contact to do it all for you.

The problem of being the B&E specialist is that the Shaman, being very good with influence powers (and me being bad at general magic knowledge), managed to get the whole party in a building twice. Improved invisibility and other spells helped him very well on this.
I know it won't be the cause everytime, but it bugs me to have a special "you shaman don't know how to enter this one, this one is the the adept to fell useful ! D:"building ... I want him to be "better" at something ...

As for the Datasearch side, the "default" option seem to be for the Rigger or the mercenary (both with logic 4) to get some skill in it. The Street Sam have a skillSoft reader thingy, and may try & buy something to help them on this, too.
It was more a lead, telling you that there may be a lack of general computer skills in the party, but I can't feel a adept really into this...
As my mind works better with "examples" (from movies & series), I don't remember a character who would fit this theme...

heck, for datasearch, he wanted gear, give him a commlink with a decent rating agent and a few basic programs and you've got your bases pretty decently covered. you probably wouldn't want to hack anything that's high security (and honestly, if anyone's going to invest significantly in computer skills, it really should be that rigger), but it should cover the basics pretty well.

for an adept, you could pretty easily mix in a bit of social adept. you could also potentially add in a lot of mentally-focused adept abilities, if that's your preference. but in my opinion, being able to talk your way out of nearly anything is likely to be important and useful on a regular basis (which is not to say that having excellent analysis abilities is bad, just that being able to get more money out of Mr J, lying to the cops, bluffing your way through security, etc, is an incredibly useful and powerful skill to have).

in general, just building the character from scratch rather than using a prebuilt is likely to make a huge difference at any rate.

The Problem with the Character is probably, that it's one of the SR4 Premade ones . .
And these are doubleplusnotgood as far as i remember . .

Err ... 2050 ! No commlink !

But yeah, the other ones may try & look at the datasearch skill (or the whole electronic group) with their new karma ... ^^

Also, another adept-related question : Is it possible for the Adept to have achieved initiation at chargen ?

If he was hand built using the karma system, you could have allowed it.
But not with the Point System PreMade one i am afraid.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so unless it's karmagen (what Stalhseele said) though as a GM I'd allow maybe maximum grade 1 if it's backstory related (and the player can give me a really, really good reasoning for it)

Edit: Ninja'd.

OK, that's what I though ....
I may look at karmagen, then ...
would it stay balanced, with BPgen for most PCs, and karmagen for another ?

It depends.
If you are using 750 points and x5 Attribute Cost it should be balanced to the BP System.
If you use the officially de-errataed version where you get 1k Karma for the x5 Attribute cost it is in no way balanced anymore.

Stahlseele, what version of Runner's Companion are you using that allows 1000 karma for character generation? The one I have lists 750 karma along with the 5x karma cost for attributes (The one with the new cover). The only place it lists 1000 karma is as an option if making drakes or infected or something else that calls for a lot of karma.

look into your private messages because: reasons!

OK, so I tried 2 builds, for now.

The first one is more or less based on the Sherlock Holmes character in the last movies. He is a good Melee fighter, neutralizing his opponents quickly, but may have a hard time against a particularly tough one. He is also a very good detective, and the adept-side of the character even let him know what happened from the astral signature left behind. From running the shadows, he learned he sometimes have to stay away and use some gear to do what he does best : investigate and neutralize; so he grabbed some spying stuff and a Rifle.


Melee combat : 13d. Nerve strike + finishing move (and second nerve strike).
Ranged combat : 9d 7P AP: -1 RC: 1(3).
Social : 9d
Psychometry : 13d
Infiltration/Shadowing/Tracking: 8-9d

I know he is not that good, but he doesn't have negative qualities yet, so I might boost his ranged combat by 2 points and social by 1, or something...
I like the whole "Eldetic Sense Memory to remember where I was + Psychometry to remember where I wasn't" thing. Plus the party doesn't have a Face, for now (the Shaman with 5 charisma defaulting all the skills is nearly the best ... ).
and you may have seen I put the initiation-Metamagic thing in the BP chargen... That's cause I don't like mixing karmagen and BPgen in the same party, it doesn't feel right... It is even worse : karmagen makes generalists easier to build, and this one would be a generalist, so ...
If you think initiation-Metamagic should be more expensive in BP, tell me, I really don't know how to evaluate it ... (the negatives qualities may balance it)


The Second Character is based on me reading the "Gliding" and "Wall Running" powers. He is based on the classic ninjas from the Naruto-typed animes, with characters jumping from trees to trees, only staying on tiny branches, running vertically, etc ...
"Half" the build is really close to the previous one (the whole electronic gear + longarm, because I don't want him to be "stuck" when he can't figure how to go in melee.


As you may see, he's already a little above his 400bp, but doesn't have negatives qualities either.
I as thinking about trying an Orc with grade 2 Synaptic Accelerator to improve his base attributes and lessen the cost of his initiative boost in terms of PowerPoints (but increase it in BP).
Anyway, this on is MUCH more combat oriented, with infiltration put in, really improved by the adept powers.
The problem of this on is that : The rigger's primary drone is a (silent) flying one with a LMG and a mechanic arm, and the shaman knows improved invisility and levitation. The first one can nearly replace the assassin typed character (even more when assisted by invisibility shaman) and the second one can enhance anyone in the party to make nearly the same job...

Now, I may try to build a "utility fists" (take elemental Strike with 3 different elements) for fun, but it may not be as playable ...


And i'm nearly stuck. I don't know what to build, which could be both combat oriented and with something really useless aside. Even worse, I know the player is clearly a "I want combat" type of guy (Heck, he even went in the Redmond streets before delivering what the Johnson wanted, in our one-shot, to see whether he could handle a fight with 2 gangers... and killed one).

actually, both gliding and wallrunning can be done better with ware than with magic for a change . .

Even in 2050 ?

nnno idea actually . .

The problem with Wall Running and Gliding is that they're stupefying expensive and are largely redundant with other non-adept skills. This is doubly true since the ninja hardcapped Magic and spent 25 BP on that final power point. Let's do some math.

Setting aside the Attribute Boost (STR) power for the moment, the ninja's average wall running test (Strength 4 + Running 2) is going to generate 2 successes, which equals 2 meters of wall running. Congratulations, you can wall-run to the top of your refrigerator. It's more than I can do but is decidedly unimpressive for an adept. Try using the Climbing or Gymnastics skill instead, or have him stand on someone's shoulders. Wall Running might be nifty to gain a tactical advantage in the middle of a firefight but it's certainly not worth 25 BP.

Gliding allows you to run (Magic) meters over a surface that won't support the character's weight. That's 6 meters for our Magic 6 adept, but he can already leap 4 meters with a running jump without too much of a challenge. A running jump is Agility (5) + Gymnastics (2) = 7 dice to make the jumping test. That will reliably produce 2 successes, which is enough to make it 4 meters. Even a standing jump will make it 2 meters with the same dice. Attribute Boost (AGI) narrows the gap too. There are very particular circumstances where Gliding would be better but none that are common enough to justify spending a full power point on it.

If you're the GM, you could heavily discount the cost of these powers to free up power points to make the adept more effective in other areas. Personally, I wouldn't pay (or charge) more than 0.25 power points for either ability. Either that or drop them entirely, which frees up 25 BP and 1 power point for other opportunities.

OK, these powers are crap ... -_-
Fluff was nice, but mechanically ... -_-

and now, I have to find another adept build that would fit ...

There's a REASON why everybody is complaining about Adepts . .
Because they are simply tacked on top of a good and viable mundane concept usually.
Pure Adepts are very very limited in what they can do. They need to heavily specialise.

Tom, you're probably not as far away as you think. My favorite character of all time is a B&E adept that's not dramatically different from your ninja. I'm not going to make any arguments about adepts being optimal, but they do have a few tricks up their sleeves, things which mundanes cannot easily replicate. The recommendations below are based on the "I want combat" desires of the PC. Also, I don't have the 2050 book in front of me right now so I can't remember if any of the below-mentioned powers have yet to exist, but I'm guessing they're all kosher.

The attributes are largely okay. I would shift a point from Willpower to Strength, since that extra point of strength will add a box of damage when punching fools in the face.

For the powers, drop Nerve Strike, Gliding, and Wall Running. Instead, pick up Killing Hands, Critical Strike (lots), and Combat Sense. Right now you're only using 1 of the 3 discounts that the Warrior's Way provides on combat abilities. Apply the other 2 discounts to Critical Strike and Combat Sense. This is the basic build of a "I punch through worlds" adept. Critical Strike 6 + Strength 5 = 9S base damage for Punchy McPunchFace. Killing Hands makes that damage Physical for when slapping spirits and/or someone who needs to have their head chopped off with your bare hands. Oh, and you have points left over for your favorite Elemental Strike for additional LOLs.

For Qualities, I would drop High Pain Tolerance and trust in Reaction + Improved Reflexes + Combat Sense to keep the PC undamaged. Add drugs, if paranoid. Snuff is cheap and doesn't have significant downsides, other than a chance to sneeze while sneaking up on a hapless grunt. For skills, don't buy the specializations with BP at chargen - wait and buy them with karma, especially since the PC has already earned some.

Pick up some negative qualities for flavor. Reinvest the points saved from High Pain Tolerance. That should provide a significant boost to the PC. Top priority: Perception.

Do they have armor in 2050? Pretty sure they did/do/will. I would get some armor.

There! No so bad, was it?

The 2050 is quite a boost for them actually : there is nothing negative for a "pure" adept in 2050. All the powers are here, the wualities as well, ... It may be a little bit harder if you want Initiative bioware + adept powers (as the bioware is more expensive), things like that, but I figured (after building some adepts, today) 2050 is a good thing for Adepts.
And it doesn't even feel enough.



In fact, I began by building a damage focused Adept, and got this :
But that's not what I want ... It spends 330 points, and can only punch...
I want an adept from which we can feel the power outside of combat situations. Even better, feel some power outside infiltration situations !

That's why I like the Psychometry metamagic, the Eldetic Sense Memory and kinesics powers ... utilities are what a character feel like ...
Putting 2 or 6 levelson critical strike won't change how it feels. 1 power points in critical or 1 power point in Nerve Strike will.

Well... here's a little something you might find interesting. He's decent in combat, good at stealth, and can see bloody near anything, so he make s a great scout or spotter. Great as assensing, so picking up Psychometry with an Initiation would be ideal. He does rely on Jazz as an IP booster, and I'm not sure if Lone Star had developed it by 2050 (if that's an issue, drop the Improved Infil and get Rush... and accept the inevitable Drain).

I like what you made here ^^

I may try to bu away crit strike+killing hands+elemental Strike and put nerve strike, and maybe the low-essence IP bioware...
Moreover, I find the maneuver "finishing move" really effective with the assassin concept, as it permits to double strike an enemy to death (or paralyzing here) more easily...

And the "Enhanced Perception" is golden for the perception of the assassin side and the Psychometry of the detective side


He's a good mix between the Sherlock and the assassin, in fact

I tried another build. seems maybe too generalist : wanted the social focus, the detective (percep + assens with psychometry) one, the stealth one (with some athetics of course), and some ranged capacities.
The result is this (dice pools at the end) :



I may lower the contacts by 2 and Percep/Assens by 1 to improve Stealth group by 1...

But I feel it's not that bad. Any suggestion about this one ?

I hate saying this but:
Make him an Elf.

Oh yeah, i'm dumb ...

I made him a human because I didn't want an Orc (for all the usual racism and the fact he will be the face), but .. yeah, Elf sounds better -_-

Yeah, if you're going to pump his charisma so high might as well.

Question though, what do you plan on using as throwing weapons?

No no, going ork in SR4 is pretty smart.
From a cost/bonus POV they are the Master Race.
Of course, only for kinda combaty oriented characters usually.
For a generalist Elf is better, because more skills fall under charisma and agility than under STR and BOD

The throwing weapon is for grenades
I may look at the specializations, for a cheap improvement.

The cell phones are superfluous, a Pocket Secretary is basically today's Smart Phone.