Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Rigger Help
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Ruby
I want to make a technomancer rigger but I also want to make my own drones. I've determined I'm going to follow Unwired's mention of "dronomancers" for their sprites and fading, but I'm not sure where to go from there. Any ideas?
SpellBinder
A few thoughts: Qualities More Than Metahuman & Paragon Daedalus, Electronic Warfare, Hardware, Software, Mechanic, and Vehicle active skills, knowledge skills that emphasize vehicles, design, and the sort. If you don't mind taking a hit to your Essence & Resonance, a Cerebral Booster to help bolster your Logic as this will impact most of your skills (and you can use the leftover full Essence piont for a few other things, like a Sleep Regulator or Control Rig).
Ruby
Would the control rig make things easier for the technomancer? I'm concerned about letting their Resonance take a big hit but I could probably manage with 5 and justify the cyberware as something they got before their powers awoke.
SpellBinder
That you would have to talk to your GM about, emerging after implantation. Also, if you're making your character in BP a maxed out attribute doesn't always seem worth it (unless the GM says "hang the extra 15 BP").

I mentioned the Control Rig as it gives you a boost to any Vehicle test you have to make while jumped in, stacks with the technomancer's natural +2 to everything in VR, and seems to be one of the things a non-technomancer rigger always has. You could start with Cerebral Booster (2), a Math SPU, Sleep Regulator, and a Control Rig, all Standard grade implants, and you've only spent 0.925. Remember, whichever is taking up less Essence between cyberware & bioware counts for half.

And if you're really serious on the implants, Biocompatibility (Cyberware/Bioware) quality from Augmentation can actually help offset the Essence cost a little, along with buying stuff at Alphaware level (-30% to Essence costs for both). For what I listed above, if you had Biocompatibility (Cyberware) and bought everything at Alpha grade, that 0.925 Essence cost now just became 0.675 Essence and you've got room for even more if you want.

Just food for thought...
Ruby
I'm considering a non-cybered build at the moment (Although I will try a build with the cyberware on the side). Do I need to buy multiple copies of an autosoft or can I run one copy on several drones? The prefab rigger and smuggler both have only one copy of each of their autosofts.

Currently I was thinking of an elf since I get the bonus to charisma.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Ruby @ Jun 23 2013, 08:53 PM) *
Would the control rig make things easier for the technomancer? I'm concerned about letting their Resonance take a big hit but I could probably manage with 5 and justify the cyberware as something they got before their powers awoke.


Control rigs DO work with technomancers, and even stack with the echo for riggers.

However, for 0.5 essence cost, I"d lean more towards a Simsense Booster. A 4th pass is well worth it for a technomancer, and if you decide to go down the echo route that gives you more passes, you can always swap it with a control rig later. A trauma damper will give you an effective guaranteed hit on your fading resistance tests, too, which is worth 3 dice on average/4 if you buy hits.

The biggest thing you need to do is ask your GM if Machine Sprites can replace a drone pilot, since it has a pilot rating and can use autosofts already. If so, then you're in business. Machine sprites own. Tutor sprites can handle a lot of your Modding/Building if you give them some assembly tools for it(a lockheed vulcan with an automotive shop mod is a nice start), and both can pass as a doctor with an evo orderly to ride around in.

Command is going to be your bread and butter for a rigger due to being boostable with Sprites and Threading. I'd strongly consider taking Codeslinger: Control Device because it apples to EVERYthing you do with command. If you want to focus on Jump In rigging, More Than Metahuman is amazing. It lets you Jump Out of drones as a free action, and free actions can be explicitly delayed and taken later in the turn - if you don't use free actions over the course of the pass, you can reserve it to bail out of a drone that gets destroyed.
Ruby
I'm going for the wholly organic Technomancer at this point just so I can afford some drones. What complex forms/matrix actions should I be focusing on? Also, does my TM substitute her own Firewall for the drones in terms of protecting a drone I'm jumped into?
Neraph
QUOTE (Ruby @ Jun 26 2013, 01:49 PM) *
I'm going for the wholly organic Technomancer at this point just so I can afford some drones. What complex forms/matrix actions should I be focusing on? Also, does my TM substitute her own Firewall for the drones in terms of protecting a drone I'm jumped into?

My 2 nuyen.gif : Buy a Satellite Link and upgrade all your drones with Satellite Communications - that way you're working off of Signal of 8 instead of Signal of Crap. Then, slave your drones to your bio-node so that they are immune to hacking unless the hacker is also a Technomancer.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Ruby @ Jun 26 2013, 12:49 PM) *
I'm going for the wholly organic Technomancer at this point just so I can afford some drones. What complex forms/matrix actions should I be focusing on? Also, does my TM substitute her own Firewall for the drones in terms of protecting a drone I'm jumped into?


I would strongly suggest getting a point of ware.

It lets you do things like datajacking to a device that actually has a signal above 3.

Think of it this way. As at technomancer with resonance 6, you have signal 3.
If anyone turns on a rating 4 jammer, and you're rigging, you get dumpshock, lose connection to your drones, and have to soak 5p damage. The alternative is buying ECCM(opportunity cost of another CF), taking a -2 penalty on everything to thread it, or buying another source of Signal - but you still have to connect to it through wi-fi because skinlinks are an echo for you which doesn't solve the 'i can be killed through jamming' problem.

Anyway, ask your GM if you can, as a dronomancer, take Control Rig as a complex form. Its essence cost is remarkably similiar to Simrigs, which technos can already emulate with resonance abilities.

Your firewall rating is your OWN - its used if someone logs into your drone and attacks you directly. However, its fairly cheap to buy a firewall 6(it is not limited by system, getting FW6 on anything with a gun is a good idea)
You have 3 methods of controlling drones.
Real Time Strategy/Autonomous, where a drone acts on its own using its dumb autopilot(dogbrain) to decide how to act in any given situation - but is programed with orders and tasks remotely. Basically throwing a robot at a goal. A technomancer can throw machine sprites in their drones to make it better via Diagnostics, though(you REALLY NEED to ask you gm if you can replace a drone's pilot with a summoned sprite).
Captain's Chair: Where a rigger sits back and commands a single drone remotely, often to incredible effect since Command replaces the linked statistic in what you're doing, making it easy to get an effective 6(or more!) in a stat. The downside, is that using Command via the Control Device action is Inefficient. Everything takes a Complex Action. The upside is that it is very easy to get tons of dice, and the action inefficiency doesn't matter if you choose your actions right.
Be The Drone/Jumped In: Where you become the drone directly, as if you were there yourself. Merges your stats and the drone's hardware in interesting ways. Doesn't require a vehicle rig, though it helps immensely. Opens the rigger up to getting damaged via biofeedback, though. If you're doing this, a high Response and Sensor on your drones are critical. Reality filter is worth threading.

And you can swap between the three methods nearly instantly.
You need to decide which ones you want to focus on.

1 is expensive, because autosofts are expensive, unless you can use registered sprites in which case go hogwild.
2 is amazingly inexpensive and doesn't give a shit about the hardware quality because command overrides it.
3 has the potential to be badass as fuck, and can either be inexpensive or requires an intensive knowledge of drone and the arsenal modding system to make budget buys.

For a technomancer, with the potential to thread command up to 10-12 (or using sprite assistance), you want the Command complex form. You need the command complex form. It is your lifeblood and the main way you get shit done.
Stealth is important for not being caught.
Exploit is important for breaking into things
Analyze is way the hell more important than you think it is, so much that it is mandatory.
Spoof is nice if you want to change your access ID on the fly.
Attack is nice because it works against everything.
Armor is pretty worthless, get Shield(unwired) instead, since it works against all attacks.
Smartlink (as the cf) is worth getting if you put Smartlinks in your drone's cameras.
Encrypt is pretty much mandatory.
Reality filter is way way way useful for a rigger, since Response is such a big deal. Don't buy it, though - if you thread it when you need it, it has an off switch.
Biofeedback Filter keeps you alive. Buy it up to max if you're Jumpin rigging or afraid of black ice.
ECCM keeps you from losing connection with your drones, and is a preventative measure against dumpshock.
Decrypt is mandatory if you plan on doing any hacking. Period. If you don't have it, anyone with encrypt 1 can keep you out.

If you want to engage in Tacnet Spoof Games with other riggers, which may be required if you want to take someone elses drones, or if they want to steal yours, you need:
Scan, because threshold 4 hidden node tests suck if you don't have a good dice pool.
Trace, because it lets you find out where people are and what their access ID is(this is a very important number)
Occasionally Sniffer, which is best paired with Edit and Spoof.

Did I forget anything?
Ruby
So I'm picking out my drones now and I have a Kanmushi. If I understand right, it can only have 1 thing on its microdrone sensor? Because I want a camera and a microphone on it.
Bearclaw
Can't a technomancer use a com link as a retrans unit if he needs extra signal?
Ruby
Um... what?

Also, do I use my Response or the Drone's when I'm jumped in?
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 2 2013, 12:15 PM) *
Can't a technomancer use a com link as a retrans unit if he needs extra signal?
With how the mesh network in Shadowrun works, yes. Getting too stretched out, though, puts a rigger at greater risk of being jammed, unless all are able to run cutting edge ECCM programs as well.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jul 2 2013, 12:19 PM) *
With how the mesh network in Shadowrun works, yes. Getting too stretched out, though, puts a rigger at greater risk of being jammed, unless all are able to run cutting edge ECCM programs as well.


Right. My point is, giving up a point of essence/resonance to avoid jamming isn't a very good usage of your resources, IMHO.
Redjack
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 26 2013, 06:04 PM) *
My 2 nuyen.gif : Buy a Satellite Link and upgrade all your drones with Satellite Communications - that way you're working off of Signal of 8 instead of Signal of Crap. Then, slave your drones to your bio-node so that they are immune to hacking unless the hacker is also a Technomancer.
Couple of points here:
- You can only slave nodes in mutual signal range
- Slaving a node does not make it "immune to hacking".
- When you put a satellite in the middle of the conversation, you negate "mutual signal range".
Bearclaw
If everyone has satellite uplink, aren't they within mutual signal range?
Slaving a node to a living persona does make it almost immune to "hacking". Spoofing is a different matter.
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 09:43 AM) *
If everyone has satellite uplink, aren't they within mutual signal range?
As stated above, a satellite link puts a satellite in the middle of the conversation... or to state it a different way, you have mutual signal range to a satellite, but not another comlink also equipped with a sat link. Mutual signal range requires a direct connection between comlinks.
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 09:43 AM) *
Slaving a node to a living persona does make it almost immune to "hacking". Spoofing is a different matter.
As you just stated, simply spoofing commands negates any perceived immunity.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 3 2013, 08:53 AM) *
As stated above, a satellite link puts a satellite in the middle of the conversation... or to state it a different way, you have mutual signal range to a satellite, but not another comlink also equipped with a sat link. Mutual signal range requires a direct connection between comlinks.


A satellite link is just a microwave retrans unit. Are we saying that retrans units don't work?
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 10:38 AM) *
A satellite link is just a microwave retrans unit.
Here is the description of a satellite link
QUOTE (sr4a @ pg228)
Satellite Link: is allows the user to uplink to communication satellites in low-Earth orbit, connecting to the Matrix from places where no local wireless networks exist.  is link has a Signal rating of 8. Includes a portable satellite dish.
It does not state the added functionality of comlink to comlink communication, nor the retransmit functionality you assert.

Edit: Page 50 of Unwired is even clearer that satellites are an uplink.
Bearclaw
Everything is an "uplink". The satellite section is right after the radio waves section. And just before the beam connection. They are just different kinds of connections. Satellite connections are slower, because of the distance traveled, which is covered in the rules. You can hack through it, at -1 response, so you can do anything else through it.

edit> Sorry, it's at half response. I'm not sure how to translate that to rigging, but there's absolutely no reason to say you can't communicate with your drones over a satellite link.
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 12:49 PM) *
Everything is an "uplink".
Negative. A direct connection is not an 'uplink'.

QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 12:49 PM) *
there's absolutely no reason to say you can't communicate with your drones over a satellite link.
Agreed. But it is not the same as a connection in 'mutual signal range', which allows a device to be slaved. ergo: A device cannot be slaved over a routed connection. An uplink infers routing (at least in Shadowrun sr4).
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 3 2013, 12:57 PM) *
Agreed. But it is not the same as a connection in 'mutual signal range', which allows a device to be slaved. ergo: A device cannot be slaved over a routed connection. An uplink infers routing (at least in Shadowrun sr4).


Like a retrans unit. A device is receiving and then re-transmitting the signal. Isn't that the same thing?

But, maybe we're arguing two different things. I guess the point I'm actually arguing for is the ability to rig over a satellite connection, rather than if you can "slave" over that connection.
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 02:31 PM) *
But, maybe we're arguing two different things. I guess the point I'm actually arguing for is the ability to rig over a satellite connection, rather than if you can "slave" over that connection.

I started from here:
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 26 2013, 05:04 PM) *
My 2 nuyen.gif : Buy a Satellite Link and upgrade all your drones with Satellite Communications - that way you're working off of Signal of 8 instead of Signal of Crap. Then, slave your drones to your bio-node so that they are immune to hacking unless the hacker is also a Technomancer.

I agree you can do either (1) slave your drones to your bio-node or (2) buy a Satellite Link and upgrade all your drones and rig over a satellite link, not both at the same time.
Bearclaw
So where does it say "mutual signal range". I just read all of the uses of the word slave in the BBB and Unwired and it doesn't seem to say that anywhere.

edit>the reason I'm still discussing this is: I know you can slave nodes through any kind of a connection, and I don't get what makes drones different from toasters or com-links. I thought they were all the same thing, with different levels of complexity.
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 3 2013, 02:50 PM) *
So where does it say "mutual signal range".
QUOTE (Unwired @ pg55)
When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master

Bearclaw
So, you cannot slave the toaster in your house in Belvue to your comm link, drive to Tacoma, connect through the matrix and give the toaster instructions?
Or, you can't issue orders to your slaved drone hrough the re-trans unit in your Cyberspace Designs Nexus?

Or, I can't use a VPN to connect to my customers network, even though I go through at least 4 routers on the way?

edit> I guess I always pictured it as using Tunneling to create a virtually private connection, and that tunneling goes through routing just fine.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
Sorry, Redjack, but that says absolutely nothing about Mutual Signal Range. All it says is that it will reject any other matrix connections other than the Master Node. But since the Mesh does not actually forge a connection, they only pass through, the Master Node is the only Subscription.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Ruby @ Jul 2 2013, 11:00 AM) *
So I'm picking out my drones now and I have a Kanmushi. If I understand right, it can only have 1 thing on its microdrone sensor? Because I want a camera and a microphone on it.


Improved Sensor upgrade in Arsenal, page 138 should give it a sensor bay capacity of 3. Its fairly cheap, too.


QUOTE (Ruby @ Jul 2 2013, 12:09 PM) *
Also, do I use my Response or the Drone's when I'm jumped in?


Jumped in: your drones response. Also it's Sensor. 4A Page 245 for details.
Redjack
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 3 2013, 06:22 PM) *
But since the Mesh does not actually forge a connection, they only pass through, the Master Node is the only Subscription.
The mesh routes the connection. You must be in mutual signal range to slave a node.

Edit: Please read "Routing", UnWired pg 54

Edit-2: To follow up from my quote above, please note the difference in the terms "connect" and "log onto"
QUOTE (UnWired @ pg55)
If a node wants to go online, it just connects to the next available node around it, which in turn is connected to other nodes, and so on, through to the destination.  These connection processes are hidden to Matrix users; a persona never “sees” the nodes through which it is routed, nor is there any possibility to log onto the nodes through which a connection is routed
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 3 2013, 08:22 PM) *
The mesh routes the connection. You must be in mutual signal range to slave a node.

Edit: Please read "Routing", UnWired pg 54

Edit-2: To follow up from my quote above, please note the difference in the terms "connect" and "log onto"


Point Taken! smile.gif
Ryu
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 4 2013, 04:22 AM) *
The mesh routes the connection. You must be in mutual signal range to slave a node.

Edit: Please read "Routing", UnWired pg 54

Edit-2: To follow up from my quote above, please note the difference in the terms "connect" and "log onto"


Routing is less safe because other nodes can analyze the routed traffic. Ok. Im pretty sure that "mutual signal range" is not "direct connection without routing". Any subscription requires mutual signal range, so as long as you can access a node you can slave it.
Redjack
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 6 2013, 01:36 PM) *
Im pretty sure that "mutual signal range" is not "direct connection without routing".
Actually, that is EXACTLY what it is.

EDIT: Adding reference:
QUOTE (sr4a @ pg218)
When a wireless device needs to pass information to another device in mutual Signal range, it simply sends the data. If the destination is not within this range, for example when you are in the UCAS and trying to speak to Mr. Johnson in Lisbon, the information travels from device to device in a process called routing.
Ryu
Found my English Unwired, looked up pg. 55 on Subscriptions. Those need a "fast, two-way, maintained connection", not "mutual signal range". Master-slave connections are on the list of things requiring subscriptions.

Further evidence is pg. 54 on Routing, describing how a connection is achieved. As long as both master and slave are able to connect to the same network (matrix), the connection is automatically maintained.

Where do I find special rules for mutual signal range? There are disadvantages listed for routing, but I cant find info on "not routing".

Redjack
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 6 2013, 11:56 PM) *
Further evidence is pg. 54 on Routing, describing how a connection is achieved. As long as both master and slave are able to connect to the same network (matrix), the connection is automatically maintained.
You made that up: pg54 does not say anything about slaved nodes. Pg55 does, as I quoted above.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 7 2013, 12:56 AM) *
Master-slave connections are on the list of things requiring subscriptions.
Yes, they also require a subscription. That does not negate the additional need for mutual signal range.

If you wish to contradict my quotes, please provide direct quotes that do so. The quotes I have provided are VERY clear and vague generalities will not invalidate them.


QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 7 2013, 12:56 AM) *
Where do I find special rules for mutual signal range?
The advantages of mutual signal range, beyond the obvious, are the ability to slave a device, as noted in quotes above.
Ryu
Routing is able to establish connections, a connection allows a subscription, a slave forwards all other connection attempts to the master. That is as far as I can follow.

All those quotes are valid as far as I know, none of them demands mutual signal range for master-slave connections.

pg. 53-54 Unwired
"If a node wants to go online, it just connects to the next available node around it, which in turn is connected to other nodes, and so on, through to the destination.  These connection processes are hidden to Matrix users; a persona never sees the nodes through which it is routed, nor is there any possibility to log onto the nodes through which a connection is routed"

This talks about connections between routing devices. The routing section talks about the whole route as connection ("The destination then follows the route request trails back, and a connection is established"). Regarding intent I cant tell you which interpretation of the term is correct, I only just found out where you are coming from; yet we have not had trouble with worldwide slaving, at all. There is certainly a stronger incentive for being local if your interpretation is correct, so Ill talk to the group anyway.
Redjack
I don't know how to say it any clearer than with my quotes above; you are simply wrong. Let me state this one more time, both quotes in the same post:
QUOTE (Unwired @ pg55)
When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master
If the slave will not connect to ANY other node, it cannot connect to ANY other node... routing included, as routing requires a connection (even if seamless to the end user, it is still a connection.)
QUOTE (UnWired @ pg55)
If a node wants to go online, it just connects to the next available node around it, which in turn is connected to other nodes, and so on, through to the destination.  These connection processes are hidden to Matrix users; a persona never sees the nodes through which it is routed, nor is there any possibility to log onto the nodes through which a connection is routed


I really am not seeing what about this concept you are not getting?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 3 2013, 10:53 AM) *
As you just stated, simply spoofing commands negates any perceived immunity.

Well, unless the user has thought to lock out certain commands in the slaved device.

"Do not accept any new user accounts established over wireless connections" is a popular one.



-k
Redjack
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 7 2013, 03:27 PM) *
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 3 2013, 10:53 AM) *
As you just stated, simply spoofing commands negates any perceived immunity.
Well, unless the user has thought to lock out certain commands in the slaved device.

"Do not accept any new user accounts established over wireless connections" is a popular one.
That doesn't stop me from spoofing commands. It only stops me from creating new accounts... and remember, I can hack around that as well.
Bearclaw
So really, tunneling. That's what tunneling does. It creates a direct connection between two computers over the air and through routers, making as if they were directly wired together.

"When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master" does not mean what you think it means. The idea that it needs direct communications between the two devices with no routing of any kind in between them is contrary to the way networking works. My reading, and I think everyone else's reading, is that any connection that would support a subscription would support a slave connection.

edit> I was referring to post #36, and should have quoted it so it would be clear.
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 7 2013, 02:39 PM) *
Well, unless the user has thought to lock out certain commands in the slaved device.

"Do not accept any new user accounts established over wireless connections" is a popular one.That doesn't stop me from spoofing commands. It only stops me from creating new accounts... and remember, I can hack around that as well.


I agree with this completely smile.gif
Redjack
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 7 2013, 03:53 PM) *
So really, tunneling. That's what tunneling does. It creates a direct connection between two computers over the air and through routers, making as if they were directly wired together.
Actually, a slaved device tunnels all its matrix connections via its master. In a way, you are partially right about tunneling, just not fully understanding how it works.
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 7 2013, 03:53 PM) *
"When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master" does not mean what you think it means. The idea that it needs direct communications between the two devices with no routing of any kind in between them is contrary to the way networking works.
It means exactly what it says. A few of you wanting it to mean something else so you can exploit it simply does not make it so.
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 7 2013, 03:53 PM) *
My reading, and I think everyone else's reading, is that any connection that would support a subscription would support a slave connection.
I disagree that it is everyone else's reading. In every game I've played where we've discussed this (quite a few), we have agreed on the mutual signal range.
Ryu
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 7 2013, 10:38 PM) *
I don't know how to say it any clearer than with my quotes above; you are simply wrong. Let me state this one more time, both quotes in the same post:
If the slave will not connect to ANY other node, it cannot connect to ANY other node... routing included, as routing requires a connection (even if seamless to the end user, it is still a connection.)


I really am not seeing what about this concept you are not getting?

The support for your way to read the rules from the quotes: A device goes online by connecting to other devices. Therefore slaves dont accept routing, as routing needs connecting.


The support for the other way: "Routing" tells us a connection can be relayed via routing. We check the originating node of the full connection attempt, you check the last part of the chain. Both are valid ways to interpret "from the master".


Im a GM, player of mages when Im not, and have run games with TM/hacker/rigger as individual PCs (at the same time). Quite blatantly: No exploits, not even attempts on this front. Ill ask the group if they want to follow your interpretation, as I said. IMO this discussion should end in its own thread.
Redjack
QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 8 2013, 06:37 AM) *
The support for your way to read the rules from the quotes: A device goes online by connecting to other devices. Therefore slaves dont accept routing, as routing needs connecting.
Then I'm sorry. You've missed a basic of how it works.

QUOTE (Ryu @ Jul 8 2013, 06:37 AM) *
IMO this discussion should end in its own thread.
There really isn't anything else to discuss. I'm not going to try to argue or browbeat you into understanding something this basic. Either you do or you don't. As long as we don't play at the same table, it doesn't matter.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 8 2013, 08:33 AM) *
Then I'm sorry. You've missed a basic of how it works.

There really isn't anything else to discuss. I'm not going to try to argue or browbeat you into understanding something this basic. Either you do or you don't. As long as we don't play at the same table, it doesn't matter.

Just as an outsider (mostly playing mages ) trying to follow some of this and without a book to boot yet, (July 11th can not get here soon enough!) will there be a glossary of sorts for all of this or will it be scattered through the matrix section?

Just asking as you are saying this is the basics so it seems pretty important to understand this going in...
Redjack
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 8 2013, 07:48 AM) *
Just as an outsider trying to follow some of this and without a book to boot yet, (July 11th can not get here soon enough!) will there be a glossary of sorts for all of this or will it be scattered through the matrix section?
This is SR4
Bearclaw
I think he might be hoping for there to be an explanation of all terms that would be considered "basic". You keep insisting that what you are saying is what the book is saying, but it's not. It's assuming things that the book doesn't say.

If slaving required mutual signal range without repeating or routing, there should be a line that read something like this: "Slaving requires devices to be in mutual signal range."

And the retrans unit explanation would say something like "drones cannot be slaved through a retrans unit".
Redjack
I really don't understand why you need an additional line that says 1+2+3=6 when you know that 1+2=3 and you know that 3+3=6...?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 8 2013, 10:01 AM) *
I really don't understand why you need an additional line that says 1+2+3=6 when you know that 1+2=3 and you know that 3+3=6...?


Because, even if it is Logical, many see it as ambiguous?
Bearclaw
QUOTE (Redjack @ Jul 8 2013, 09:01 AM) *
I really don't understand why you need an additional line that says 1+2+3=6 when you know that 1+2=3 and you know that 3+3=6...?


I know both of those are true.
What I don't know is true is "When slaving a node to a master, the slaved node does not accept any Matrix connections from any other node but the master" = you cannot use a retransmitter to connect to your slaved device, or you cannot use matrix connections to connect to your slaved device, or you cannot use a satellite connection to connect to your slaved device.
All of those are still only accepting connections from the master, but through different routes. If there were some magical way for a device to know which physical device it was connected to, you couldn't spoof.
Redjack
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 8 2013, 11:10 AM) *
Because, even if it is Logical, many see it as ambiguous?
For me, the quote above that clarified connecting and logging onto as different cleared up the ambiguity... but here we are. It's laid out in logical steps, but not in the symmetrization as some might want. As you have said, mutual signal range is a logical conclusion. From a game balance perspective, it is also a good balance on slaving nodes.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012