I've just gotten my hands on MiTS, and it's a pretty interesting read, moreso than I found man and machine to be I'm curious on the nature of magic though, and I think I've come up with an idea of how it's supposed to work.

I think magic is simply raw power; if you're awakened, you have access to this power. As a mage (or shaman, or adept) grows, and once he discovers his power, it's up to him to make sense of it to empower himself. What do I mean? Well, shamans - Their totems come to them in dreams, right? But they choose you because of your characteristics. Mages, different ways and theories of casting magic, but they still get that same fireball out.

What I think is that logic and belief is what supports magic. The more you research your theories on magic, the more evidence you throw behind it, make it more stable, the absolute and powerful, and undeniable it becomes.

And since logic and belief is what drives magic, this is probably why awakened madmen are said to be so dangerous. If you're not bound by the laws of logic anymore, you can do practically anything.

There are probably holes in this theory, and MiTS might already have covered it, but still...

The main kink in that is shamans. They dont have to believe in logic and proof whatsoever, they have faith, adn for them that is enough.

But isn't faith belief? Like those miracle workers listed in the threats section.

Psht. Faith, belief, self-empowerment; come on down to our labs at MIT&T sometime. We'll give you the real scoop, not that shamanic bulldrek.

~J

I prefer the hermetic view of magic, myself. Mana is just a force of nature, ruled over by the dreams and thoughts of sentient beings. It can be manipulated through the use of sheer willpower and emotion, as that's what allows one to focus their minds. Magic is a tool to be shaped and commanded to do your bidding, and little more. Even spirits, and particularly elemental spirits, are nothing but the subconscious traits of their conjurers. The metaplanes are simply the creations of the unrealized dreams of humanity.

Shamans fall into that view just fine, even if they prefer to delude themselves into thinking that a "god" is granting them their powers. Willpower is still being used to shape their magic, and they only lose access to those abilities when they psychologically crutch themselves by not behaving properly. Their spirits tend to be more lively and expressive because the spirits believe them to be.

Damn shamans.

The truth is more complicated.

What? That there is no truth?

The really extra spiffy thing about the way magic is handled in SR is that you can have any kind of philosophy you want on the subject. I recently just purchased the book myself. I particularly liked the mention of how religions are dealing with magic.

Shadowrun is explicit in the blurry nature of the essence of magic.

Arguments over how magic works are rampant.
Arguments over whether or not spirits exist independently of sorcerors abound.

The hermetics say the power is inside and all around them as a basic energy of the universe. Shamen argue that the energy is the lifesblood of the world and that shamen shape that power to their will. Spirits are seen as pre existing natural creatured to be summoned and bargained with, treated like sentient life, as they are seen.

Hermetics see elementals as creations they bring forth, giving life where none existed before.

Shadowrun is NEW to the rebirth of magic. Theories abound but at this stage, it's more about faith than anything else.

You can come up with your own origin, but we all have one of those. It's proving it that's the trick.

Kong

Not all hermetics believe that. There's great diversity.

indeed. to be honest, there's as much evidence that the shamen are "right" as there is that the hermetics are. after all, what's a hermetic but a shaman following the Scientific Law totem, which provides no dice bonuses but offers a unique array of spirits to summon?

Sorry, mfb, but they are different. One smokes dope and dances to improve his magic, the other studies magical books on his computer. These differences are part of why the hit TV show "The Odd Coven" is so popular. If Hollywood's presentation of The Odd Coven doesn't demonstrate that they are different, I don't know what does.

those are differences in stereotype only. i can create a Fire-bringer shaman who studies ancient alchemical texts to improve his magic, or an amerind hermetic who studies his drawings and paintings of the natural world.

besides which, they're both wrong. all magic is the manifestation of an inner power, focused by the mind!

No, magic is gifted to us by beings beyond our current comprehension! Dragonslayer spoke to me and told me how to use magic. He grants me his servants and powers to further his ends.

Hermetics are just too dense to hear the inner logic of the world!

(Ha!)

Mmm, that's good IC!

(That is to say, In Character, not...oh nevermind.)

IC A Hermetic uses a crowbar trying to force Nature to his will. It is no wonder he has so much trouble learning how to cast, and why his spirits are cold and distant. True power comes not in forcing Nature, but bending with Her and using your body to channel Her will.

Hermetics have trouble "learning how to cast?"

The current character I'm working on is technically a Hermetic, but he summons, acts, and believes like a shaman...like a shaman who was, sadly, never contacted by a totem.

Yes, because...that's what canon says. As opposed to what canon /doesn't/ say...which is...nevermind.

The hermetic library represents a collection of theories, papers, information, and so forth. It has no bearing on the way a hermetic casts a spell.

Oh, and you know what might be interested in figuring out what the hermetic tradition actually is...it does exist IRL, ya know...

Sigh. Kakkaraun, if you have something to say, just say it.

Hermetic spells are cast using the exact same formula every time. They plug-in different variables and much of that is artistic guesswork, but it is the exact same spell every time. A shaman has no spell formula. They have a rudimentary outline and paint the magic almost totally by instinct. They are opposites within the domain of magic.

Hermetic is 90% Science 10% Art
Shamanic is 10% Science 90% Art

Point me to the rules. Otherwise, quit stating your theories as facts.

Rules? Who is talking about rules? If you want me to go back and read through SR2, Grimoire, Awakenings, and SR3 to find the hermetic magic formula, fine. And I never state anything as fact. Everything is fiction. Your imaginary state of corporal affairs is disastrously close to insane. And I'll say whatever I want, whenever I want, thank you very much. Feel free.

His statement is canonical. It may not be rules, but it is still supported by SR3.

O...kay. Well, the simple fact of the matter is that the RULES say that both mages and shamen use formulas--FORMULAS--they just take different forms. One can be "scientific" and one can be "artistic" but the difference is PURELY AESTHETIC.

Plus one man's art is another man's science, and vice versa. When it comes down to it, shamans are just self-deluded religious freaks.

How can you be so blind to the basic laws of the universe?

Tsk. Science is just another form of Religion, one based on the gods of Logic and Method rather than Good and Evil, Power and Chaos. We're all self-deluded religious freaks.

It's kinda disturbing how quickly this devolved into a loony IC commentary.

I feel like I'm on the loony Shadowland SIG's.

Why do formulas necessarily need to be static? They could be algorithms.

Dead chickens are for the animal shamans. Dragonslayer has much better imagrey. Daggers and burning and such.

That would be singularly unwise.

Vodoun!

~J

yeah, don't go there... we had a thread shut down for that only a little while ago...

-Mike R.

IJWTS that "The Odd Coven" made me laugh. That is all.

Magic of either type is still magic and what is Magick? The world may never know but the truth is what you need it to be... by that I meen that the truth is what the individual believes the truth to be. The wisdom found in a book or in the vision quest is still wisdom. If a mage throws a fireball and a shaman throws a fireball how are they different? does one burn any brighter or better? (Not if they are the same force) Is the wisdom imparted by Wolf any different then the wisdom imparted by an ancient text on Native Shamanism? Perhaps not... perhaps the real truth is that magick is the life energy of the world influenced by the tools of the Magick-user be he a Hermetic, Shaman, Psychic, Voudoun or Religious beleiver.

Magick is a tool and in Tools I prefer "Craftsman" guarnteed for LIFE.

Is magic a tool? or is it a way of life?