So it was mentioned in one of the numerous SR5 debate threads (possibly several), that some people feel like the people most hurt by smartguns not giving bonus dice is mooks with low pools. And it occurred to me that there is a huge market for a hand held drone gun that is a step beyond a smart gun and does all the targeting for you. The barrel is controlled by a set of servos and actuators and built in cameras allow the gun to track and target, but the weapon does not fire until the operater pulls the trigger (or otherwise issues a fire command). Otherwise the weapon attacks just like a drone, using the appropriate dice pool. Note, this system is an exception to the standard rule that a mini drone cannot have a weapons mount, since this is a drone that is essentially only a weapon mount.

So I propose the new line of Ares Auto-targeting Drone Guns:

The standard pilot system for these is 3, with targeting software 4. The software can be upgraded, for the appropriate price, just as you would upgrade any other drone. Most corporate users also opt for a safe target system, but gangers or cheaper corps may choose not to.

Pistol Model- 1000 nuyen, 5P, -1 AP, SA Ammo 8 ©
This is the one handed variant, specifically designed for rent-a-cops and other low level security.

Shield Model- 1900 nuyen, 5P, -1 AP, SA Ammo 10©, Optional taser fire (as a Yamaha Pulsar)
This model was specially designed for Lone Star and features a built in taser fire. It can be set to automatically switch to taser fire at close or medium ranges (less than 10 meters), to allow tactical versatility and less lethal force. They also include a built in safe-target system.

Defender Model- 2200 nuyen, 6P, -1 AP, SA,BF, Ammo 20 ©
This two handed variant is designed for heavier threat response.

Guardian Angel- 2000 nuyen, 4P, 0, SS, Ammo 4 ©
This compact model is designed to be mounted on a shoulder or helmet. A special internal sound dampening system prevents the noise of weapon being fired so close to the ears from causing pain or hearing loss. This was specifically designed for use as a rearguard system for a full tactical suit, with the weapon mounted backwards and scanning for targets behind a soldier. It interfaces with a HUD to alert the user to possible danger.

Special- Auto-targeting drone guns come standard with tac-soft rating 2. A group of soldiers or guards using Auto-targeting drone guns are each considered a member of a tacnet, provided their weapons are connected and for the purposes of the tacnet have a sensor rating of 4.
In addition to trigger pull, a auto-targeting weapon can be programmed to fire based on a spoken command, in response to a target firing, or from a direct command from the PAN.

Autonomous- Usually the weapons are in autonomous mode, operating only when given a command by a trigger pull or another form of direct command from a user. Note, the auto-targeting is quite good, but the weapon must still be pointed in the general direction of a target and identification of a particular target may be necessary depending on the settings of the weapon (the weapon has bystander recognition routines to prevent it firing on non-hostile targets, though these can be turned off). Pulling the trigger while the weapon is in the holster for example, will not allow it to fire at a hostile nearby.
Remote-Controlled- Occasionally a user will choose to operate the weapon through remote control. Particularly, if they have not upgraded the targeting software, but have a good command program and experience with remote control firing.
Jumped-In- It is rare that a rigger would bother jumping into the gun, when they could be controlling other drones with more autonomy, but they can be modified to allow this. This is particularly common for the Gaurdian Angel Model. Swat team members may have a ride along rigger that will jump into the gaurdian angel when a team member is entering a tight area where their normal weapon is not easily manuevered or where an ambush is likely.


Thoughts on balance? Pricing? Availability? Even fully upgraded, this isn't going to compete with a Sam, but for a ganger or security guard, with average agi and pistols skill of 1, this could be very appealing. Particularly, if he's got a couple buddies along for the tacnet advantage.


Please note, this is specifically built for SR4 rules and proposed as equipment for an SR4 game. I am not interested in the debate about wireless gear bonuses/SR5 and would appreciate people keeping those comments out of this thread.

I like the concept, but since most of these are still being hand held, would the targeting software still be at full effectiveness?

I mean yes it is adjusting to aim at the target, but you got a mook holding it and may not be all that steady a platform.

Maybe some kind of built in skillwire with the appropriate weapon skill loaded into the weapon as well to synergize, but I guess if you got a skillwire why would you need the drone, though the latter models do offer special added effects that would be useful to the user.

Have to contemplate this as I may be missing something obvious.

Arsenal P152 Pilot upgrade turns any gun into a drone. Add propulsion system and it can even wander around.

How did I miss those?

Still, how does the firing of a pilot upgraded weapon work? Unless you get the propulsion upgrade as well, it has no ability to aim, whatsoever. Does it just wait until you happen to wave it in the right direction?

I made myself a rigger with floating death guns controlled by murder thoughts. No one's let me use him yet

The problem with this setup quickly becomes "If I can deploy autonomous guns, why even hire people?"

If the answer is "To physically carry and then deploy the autonomous guns", the next question will be "Why don't I just use self-deploying guns?"

Rail-mounted weaponry built into the ceiling is a surprisingly effective security measure.

~Umi

Do not need to go High Tech even. A crossbow mounted at the ceiling with a piece of string attached to the door can do the trick. And it is not hackable

As for the handheld-auto-gun-of-death: I imagine it like a grip with some kind of mini-turret on top that can rotate like 45 degrees left and right (not want friendly fire casualties) and like 20 to 25 degrees up and down. Which would allow the targeting autosoft to do its job.

Only drawback I see is that you would have to feed the ammunition fron the sides or top.

Does he have weird sunglasses, no body hair, a mess of tattoos and two filthy assistants?

I debated that, but then just made him a mountain hobo. So yeah, not too far from the source material. (He was a dwarf, I suppose? Fuck it, the character is awesome.)

Hobo with an RPG, I hope

Of course. What kind of hobo doesn't have an RPG? That's just poor planning.

LAW* enforcement agencies approve of this choice!

*Yes, the weapon

If we're designing this for the sake of designing it and having fun with the concept, yeah, I don't see why this couldn't work. I can imagine it as being an essentially self-driving system where the only thing the gun needs to fire is a command from the operator, in much the same way as some of the drones that were in... one of the MilSpec Tech releases, I think it was? (They were aerial strike drones and Clockwork was going on about "well if they're basically autonomous anyway, why bother needing a manual firing command from a rigger?".) In that case, I would think you could go ahead the way you've already designed them.

Minor style point: You probably don't want to do them up strictly as a firearm, or if you do, make it so that it's the ammunition that's target-finding instead of the gun being actuated. Bending the barrel of a firearm too far is going to cause Bad Things to happen (especially if they're using EX ammo!). Come to think of it, realistically there's only so far and so fast that a barrel's going to move even if a gun's pointed in generally the right direction. I wonder if it would work to borrow the Aid Sorcery mechanic for this and add the gun's Rating to the user's dice pool? (Would that just make it a glorified smartlink?)

In terms of "game realism", though, I'd have to agree with Umi. When you factor in the amount of time and nuyen corps have to spend on salary for a guard only to have them useless when they don't have their fancy-schmancy self-operating gun in hand, it would be cheaper and less hassle for them to use drones; a Doberman with an AK-97 would only cost 800 nuyen more than the Defender model you listed, and gets rid of all the annoyances that a metahuman employee would incur.

Why take one when you can have multiple LaWS?

Fancy shmancy new age weaponry.

But at this point I'll stop derailing this thread

Of course, I feel this way about security in general. Why have flesh and blood people at all when you can avoid it. (drones are immune to combat chemicals, direct combat spells, and can be salvaged for parts if they're shot to pieces rather than having next of kin expect compensation) Which is why in our games, most of the security at any given site is already drones or fixed sensors.
This was more just for those situations where you absolutely have to have a person there or even as something you equip an employee or two with, even though security is not the main focus. So the guy at the desk that watches the cameras or some place where you want to put up a friendly meta-human face rather than a chrome barrel to greet costumers. If you're going to spend all the money on an actual person (but don't want to invest in the skillwires and other upgrades or even the basic training), you might as well make them pose some sort of threat. But I think there are a lot of tables where the opposition does hire a lot of mook guards.
The people in my game most likely to use this would be gangers and other barrens types using knock off version for self-defense/intimidation/random violence, mages that don't want to go chrome and have no reasonable way they acquired mad weapon skills (and they've usually got the money to throw after something like this), or higher level corporate individuals who only carry a weapon in case their body-guards go down. And the last group would probably be packing the upgraded version throwing 10+ dice.

Mages without chrome and wanting mad weapon skills or corporate execs, I can see. Barrens gangers, not unless a crate of them fell off the back of a truck. Here's why, using an Ares Predator as a base model:

Ares Predator IV: 350¥
Rating 3 Pilot Upgrade (thanks Shortstraw for the page citation): 3000¥
Powered Easy Breakdown, as a ballpark for the gundrone's ability to adjust itself to hit the target: 550¥ (Weapon Cost + 200¥ in Arsenal)
Rating 4 Targeting Autosoft: 2000¥ (per SR4A)
Total: 5900¥

Um... yeah. Even when you factor in that the corps have probably inflated those prices hugely for their own profit, that's a pretty damn expensive pistol for a Barrens ganger.



I'm not sure there actually is a way of using both a Pilot program AND the user's skill at the same time, since you'd basically have two users fighting over the controls. The closest thing I can think of is the rules for issuing commands to drones, which replaces the drone's Pilot program with the user's Command program. So yeah, I'd say that if you wanted to do this, anyone that could get a decent Command program and subscribe the gun to their PAN could be a not-too-horrible shot. For that matter, you might as well just drop the Pilot program to a 1 if you're going to use a Command program anyway. (I'm pointedly ignoring the "but then you're back to drones" argument, not to mention the sheer wrongness of the concept.)

Ironically, this seems like a great place for limits.

The Drone Gun uses the weilder's physical limit, but the drone's dicepool. Now you account for the physically incapable trying to use this being unsteady, while still being a pretty good tool for those who are physically fit, but unskilled.

I'll avoid dragging SR5 into this per OP's request, but I agree, it would be nice to have a happy medium so that the gun would be useful for someone who's physically capable but unskilled while not being turned into a wonder gun for people with Agility 1. (Granted, if your Agility is reasonably high anyway, just get the relevant skill at 1 and a smartlink and you're all set...)

Oh, since OP mentioned tacsofts, I don't see why you couldn't do it but you'd have to account for the whole sensor channel thing. Counting the image link and smartlink as two of four, you'd still need an imaging scope with low-light and thermographic vision on the weapon to subscribe it to the tacnet. Even then, though, tacnets need a minimum of 3 members - characters with commlinks or Pilot-controlled drones with tacsofts installed, which kind of defeats the purpose of the gun being user-controlled.

Edit: Sorry, my response to thorya's question about how a drone-controlled gun would work didn't actually answer the question. I would assume that yes, the Pilot program would have to wait until the user happened to wave the weapon into the right spot. If the wielder is the one actually aiming the gun, though, what's the point of making the gun drone-controlled? Unless it's actually manipulating the user's aim somehow, it's even less useful than a smartlink would be. (Granted, I tend to visualise smartlink aiming assistance like the lead indicators in space sim games, where there's a little dot or whatever that acts as a "shoot here to hit your target" marker.)

But if it's an all inclusive package, it should be much cheaper. For example, the Ares Predator IV includes a smartgun system as part of its price, but installing one on another gun costs 400¥. Similarly, drones frequently come with a pilot program preinstalled that is much more than the cost of the drone. It's the customization that costs the premium.

Of course, you could also just mount the gun on a smart firing platform if you don't want it to be hand held, and get a similar effect.

Which was a frankly stupid idea on the part of whoever wrote that, but yeah, I see your point. (I have a hard time believing that the Steel Lynx sells for cheaper than its softs while still making money for whichever corp produces it, but whatever.)



I'm trying not to just drop it back to "why bother when you can use drones", but unless the drone-gun has a way of adjusting the trajectory of the bullet, it's completely pointless. The only ways you can do that are to either change the way the gun's built to alter the path of the bullet (in real-time to compensate for the shooter's movements, no less), or to find some way for the gun to affect the movement of the shooter's arm. If all it's doing is triggering the weapon when shooter happens to flail in the right direction, you might be in for a long wait, and if it's providing aiming suggestions it's basically a smartlink with a Pilot program.