I'm planning a new SR4 campaign, and one of my Players has submitted a Seductress-Witch able to Mind Control the opposition.

I have to admit i have a few problems with that char, because at the moment, i dont know how to handle spells who can take
out all my opposition with one roll (not even a lucky one) and, to add insult to injury, not even get Drain for it.

The char is as follows:
Magic 6, Spellcasting 6(Spec Health Spells), Mentor Spirit (The Adversary +2Manipulation, +2Counterspelling)
He also has a Force 4 Sustaining Focus (via Restricted Gear) with Improved Reflexes (Limited), Force4, running all the time... so he has 3 or 4 Initiative Passes.
He has Charisma 7 (an Elf) and Willpower 5 for a Drain Roll of 12 (+2 for Limited Spells via Fetish)

He plans to cast Mob Control (Limited) with Force 5 on all Enemies he can see, he rolls 14 dice versus Willpower only, so its a sure thing to get
all opposition even if there's a mage with Counterspelling present (and since we are talking of a beginning campaign, there wont be any big guns present).
Drain is only F/2+2, so he rolls 14 Dice vs. 4 Damage, that means usually no drain.
At the next initiative phase, he commands them all to shoot each other (which does or does not succeed due to the Willpower-Malus,
but those guys are effectively out of the fight for at least the next 5 rounds)

I have no problem with powerful chars but i doubt that anyone of us will have fun, not even him.

My ideas so far:
- Every oppostion down to the lowest gang has to have a mage with high Counterspelling
- Every Enemy group has to bring a rigger with a few drones
- Every Enemy is out to get that one char, kill the mage first (unfortunately, a lot of players in my group want to play a mage)
- Dont accept that character (thats a bit lame)
- Houserule Mental Manipulations: Bonus to Resistance according to Social Interactions modifiers, Extra Resistance roll when in danger,
(but he will then switch to Stun Ball (Sleep Spell) and im back at start)
- Houserule Magic in general: Honestly, i find it quite overpowered for beginner chars

More ideas from more experienced GMS will be much appreciated

With Force 5, he can only get a maximum of 5 successes (without Edge), regardless of his dice pool. Average mooks have a Willpower of 3, but more serious opposition will have at least a 4 with some counterspelling.

Even if he scores all 5 successes, trained opposition will get 2-3 successes, giving him a net of 2. When given a suicidal command, they get a free Willpower roll to resist (with a bonus at your discretion) which means they're likely to snap out of it before carrying out his command. If someone manages to point out that they're acting strangely, they get a Willpower test sooner, which also erodes his control.

So, while his trick will work against a mob of average Joes, it won't work well against trained opposition. Since this is Shadowrun, you shouldn't be facing only mooks on a serious run, so having an OpFor with a higher average willpower and counterspelling is fair game. And in that case, all he can expect to do is have them waste an action.

Mental manipulations are powerful, but their effectiveness erodes quickly. Influence is the one you really have to watch out for, since if done properly they'll never even realize they've been Manipulated.

As for Stunball... yes, it's powerful, but it's also all-or-nothing. If they score more successes than he rolled, they're completely unaffected.

Cain to the best of my reollection there is no rules by the book for an automatic resistance to suicidal commands. It's a common house rule but not actually something written down.

My honest advice as an experienced GM: Tell him no, and to do another character concept. Mind control and mind probe essentially break the game and you'll save yourself a lot of hassle and save the group a lot of unfun by not allowing this character in. Now it should go without saying that if you forbid your PC's from taking mind control spells you should also make it extremely rare amongst the opposition or forgo it entirely.

Honestly not accepting characters that won't fit the campaign for various reason isn't lame, it's part of your basic job, right, and responsibility as GM.

I'll second that it's not lame to veto things or tell a player to tone it down. In fact, when I'm a player I'm frequently looking for a GM to do so. It seems stupid not to make the most powerful character I can if the system will let me do it easily and I worry that everyone else will power game so that if I don't I'll be regulated to spectator. So what I want is the GM to say No, so that I'm not breaking the game.

As a GM, I've got a few ideas for how to handle mental control spells since there's a certain group of players that is always interested in them.
1. The common house-rule that Cain referenced comes from the alter memory spell, but it makes sense to apply it to all mental manipulation spells. So if the person is under the effects of a mental manipulation spell and they are confronted with evidence that they may be controlled, they get another roll to resist.
2. Since in setting mind control is a pretty hated and feared thing from mages it's completely reasonable that people would carry simple magic detectors that register if a spell is cast nearby or if a spirit passes through them. This sensor can immediately notify the user that they may have been the victim of a mental manipulation spell and give them another opposed roll. It can also send a notification to a central system and if the person in security, they may have to identify the source of the magic or answer a set of code phrases (taking time) or else trigger a response. So even if the mage wants to kill a group of guards, he still sets off alarms. These can be programmed not to respond to known magical activity, like friendly wards.
3. Keep track of the simple actions required to control the group. Since he appears to be using control actions, if he doesn't spend a simple action each round (or pass if the target has multiple passes), they revert to taking their own actions. This won't apply to him because of the sustaining focus, but if the other character has multiple passes you can interpret it to mean that they still get to act on their later passes if they have more than the caster.
4. Since they still have their own consciousness and awareness (with control actions, though this might just cause him to switch to control thoughts), you could rule that the opposition with datajacks still has access to data jacks, control rigs, and other mentally activated things. The spell is only controlling the actions of the body. This means that drones are still a problem for the mage until the rigger is out. They may even be able to jump in full VR to avoid the control by having themselves go limp, depending on how you rule control actions. Also, if they have an implanted commlink they could use their smartlink system to eject the rounds from their guns. It disarms them, but it beats shooting your buddy.
5. Cover and awareness- the mage can't control people he isn't aware of. And if he's already sustaining one control actions group spell, another guy popping up that he missed means that he's got to cast again. Guards should be trained to spread out and seek cover so that they're harder targets for spells and bullets.
6. You can also allow a target to make an additional Willpower roll to resist if confronted with the "wrongness" of what they're doing (i.e. Frank what are you doing?). There is some precedence for this, since the Influence spirit power allows an additional roll and it states that this functions like an additional roll for a mental manipulation spell.

Generally useful things for opposing mages-
1. Wards- there goes your sustained spell, recast it.
2. Astral Detection- the focus should stand out.
3. One-way glass- Most people don't realize how deadly one-way glass is for mages. Without line of sight, they're sitting targets.
4. Background count- There are lots of cheap and easy ways to maintain a background count of at least 1 or 2 in an area if a corp/gang has no other magical protection.
5. Drones- Cheaper than guards. Immune to a lot of the extra cheesy magic. Effective in a fight. Honestly, every corp and gang should have at least one of these for every flesh and blood mook.
6. Other automated defense systems. I sometimes use what I call a "violence suppression system" it senses gunfire which immediately triggers the alarm and further investigation and immediately floods the area with Neuro-stun.

Good luck.

It is hard. Enforcing line of sight is one option. Meaning the mage has to have line of sight to every target, when casting the spell.
Thats up to much of GM fiat if the enemy is fighting from full cover.

Agreed. There comes a point where you simply state, some combinations simply aren't fun.
Distinctive style. All it takes is for the character to get a reputation of doing this and he is marked. Now, have one of those unfortunate souls who got killed be the nephew of a ranking gangster who takes it personal that his/her nephew didn't get the honor of a stand up death.
Or gunslinger syndrome: Every swinging shadowrunner wanna-be wants to take him out to be the 'guy that killed the guy'.
Or Notoriety every time it occurs. Suddenly, no one wants to hire him.

There are a lot of scenarios to talk the player out of a character like that without even playing it once.

I think that the major problem with letting the game world react is, that it is kind of unjustified or ends up just focusing on the evil deeds of one character.

Just to take Redjacks example, would the uncle of a dead guy not get pissed if his nephew would have been shot/burned/shredded/stabbed?

And everything else would apply to everyone else who would be as successful as he is.

I am pointing out it quite often, but I do it again. The point is not that mind magic is disliked a lot and is too good.
It is not liked (by most GMs and SC) because it is too good. Would it be pointless or would it only work on the weak minded it would not be.

As a matter of fact I guess most guards would rather be forced to take a bathroom brake then to get shot in the face.

Let him roll over a few things. Then the world rolls over him... and his friends.

It's not the immediate opposition but the reaction that you worry about.

Mooks are the trip wire that get a response team that not only can resist the mage, but will come in hot, heavy and primary targeting the mage.

With great power comes the heavy hitting response teams.

While we're at it, why don't you just have a bunch of cheap watcher spirits monitoring astral space? If anybody uses magic, an unreasonably powerful spirit or five will come to exterminate the magician. Don't you think people would naturally do that to protect lives or large amounts of money?

Edit: Why stop there? Have several of them collectively looking for awakened auras, or even unknown intruders.

It's actually under Influence, but it applies here as well. If he adopts it as a house rule, the effectiveness of mental manipulations will erode significantly.

Here is my advice:

Let him get away with it for a while against low level opposition. When the big boys notice, however, the magical hammer SHOULD fall HARD on someone abusing magical power that drastically. I.e. the equivalent of a Lone Star/Knight Errant swat team specifically designed to deal with Awakened assholes mass-mindraping people or throwing fireballs into crowded streets, that kind of thing. A counterspelling expert with lots of dice and a shielding focus would be a certainty, along with snipers there to shoot him before he even sees them, let alone spells them.

I'm fine with mental manipulation spells, but they need to be used with some subtlety and restraint, just like anything in Shadowrun. A character going around spamming "mob mind" should get the same reaction as a character that runs around shelling everything with an assault cannon: all the wanted stars, all of them.

Just make it clear you're not punishing the player; this is just how the universe realistically reacts.

From way back in the days, I thought that those kinds of spells left enough of the brain functioning so that clearly catastrophic actions wouldn't work, like walking off of a building because the NPC thought the roof continued farther.

But hey, one-shot killing the character works too.

Hey Joe, make another character; you died?
WHAT??? How?!
You don't really know. It felt like a bullet for a split second.
WHY??
You'll never know, but maybe it's because of that Mob Control you cast on those security guards.

I actually can't tell how sarcastic your posts have been.

Keep in mind that "area effect" does not mean every target in the mage's line of sight - it means a 6 (the mage's Magic rating) meter radius circle. So unless your security guards are idiots and clump together out in the open, rather than being spread out and/or behind cover, the mage won't be able to get a whole group of people at once. Also keep in mind that visibility modifiers affect the spellcasting test, and that often, you will need a perception test to even spot an enemy. Security will be designed to give the defenders an advantage - things like spotlights that give the runners a glare modifier but don't negate the darkness modifiers for the area behind the spotlights, while giving the defenders perfect visibility.

Don't be afraid to have magical countermeasures, too. Magic has been long enough that the corporations have been dealing with things like improved invisibility and mental manipulation spells for a long time. A mage connected to a fiber-optic network can provide some counterspelling dice. Watcher spirits and wards should be relatively common, and an alert could result in a mid-to-high Force spirit showing up fairly quickly. Remember, magic may be rare in the world in general, but not in the ranks of shadowrunners, nor in their typical targets (corporate and underworld types).

I don't think they are. The sniper wasn't even my idea.

I do think that letting mind manipulation spells to turn your enemies into mindless puppets is crazy. Why on earth should that even exist, except to give GMs a plot device where you get mind controlled into doing something that comes back to haunt you? I do not think the answer is to just kill the character you don't like and create some rationale as to why. Rocks fall, the magician dies. The same goes for making your game world just incredibly hostile to one player in the group. What if I thought hackers or adepts were too powerful and used everything I could think of to make the game unpleasant for them?

There's nothing wrong with house rules, either (if you need to do this in the middle of the game, you should let the player revise their character, or make a new one). If mental manipulations don't seem balanced, then change them, or do away with them completely. They can be problematic - they take away player agency (just like social skills can do if you make them too powerful), they are unbalanced in how they only require one net success to seize control of someone, and they are often too convenient of a lateral solution when it comes to penetrating security or getting information.

I think a good test is how you are going to handle it. If a few rules you overlooked before and some logical countermeasures can contain it, then it's okay to let it into the game. If you need to introduce measures that break immersion in the setting, suck the fun out of the game, or unfairly target the character, then you are probably better off just banning it from the game to start with.

I've been expressly forbidden from using such spells. Partly because they're so difficult to balance, but mostly because my idea revolves around an unhinged magician with a predilection towards choreography and show tunes.

I would suggest asking the player not to use such a character, and here is why:

In my games, we observe an official gentleman's agreement that the opposition will not use certain cheap tactics if the players likewise agree not to use them. For instance, in my Star Wars game, no attempting to throw important bad guys off cliffs with the Force, and the bad guys will not likewise attempt to throw the players off of those same cliffs. No rocket tag with rockets and grenades, means the enemies won't be built that way, either. No impossible-to-notice explosive ambushes means the enemies won't use them, either. (They might use explosive ambushes, but they'll be the kind that advertise their presence with glowy blue tripwires.)

If the players break the gentleman's agreement, they are free to do so. However, big bags have Force and Destiny points as well, and the will use them. If you resort to cheaping out a given enemy, they will not hesitate to cheap you out in the future.

Ergo, promise the group that if they don't use mind control/mental probes, they won't run into bad guys who do so, either. Promise them that if they take to using it to cheap out fights, the opposition will likewise be aware of the effectiveness of the strategy and will deploy it as early and as often as possible. The rest of your group will probably pressure seductress-witch to go with a different character.

My favorite thing to do is an RPG thing. In my campaigns, spells that deny people their free will are the bio/chemical/nuclear weapons of the magic world. And so magicians who consistently use spells like Control Thoughts, Alter Memory, Control Actions, and the like are looked down on with almost as much disgust as Blood and Twisted Mages.

So if the PC wants to use them they can, but using them to cause deaths can quickly bring down the wrath of Lone Star, Knight Errant, or magical groups.

Shadowdragon's comment about a gentlemen's agreement is similar way of doing it. Basically you are telling the player that they can use the spell but if they start to abuse it you will make them pay.

The other thing I do is become very strict about the rules and start enforcing ever rule in the book. And one of the most common over looked rules, in my experience, is the concentration rule. While sustaining a spell a magician can be required to make a concentration check to maintain the spell. Now it is just a Spellcasting + Willpower (2) test, which it sounds like your player could easily pass.

The AoE rules are another one to focus on. Mental AoE spells can effect allies, which would mean if the street sam is caught in the spell he suddenly can't do anything that the mage doesn't order him to do. If this happens once the rest of your players will quickly start pressuring the mage to stop abusing the spell.

The other thing to do is start having there be more mana barriers in your campaigns. If there is a mana barrier at each doorway then the caster will need to walk into the room to cast the spell or suffer the penalties of casting through a barrier. This will also make it harder for him to maintain his Sustaining Focus all the time as either he has to push it through the barrier (possibly alerting security) or dismiss and recast the spell.

I run my games by the Rules As Written. And for the most part, I agree with Cain. Such a combination isn't all that insurmountable and it is likely to take down lower Rating Grunts. Other NPCs might not be as vulnerable.

In so far as cheap tactics are concerned, my group has an agreement that cheap tactics, if they are simple and/or obvious enough, should be used. The only time cheap tactics shouldn't be used is if the user isn't likely to be able to think of it. Like an animal with low Int or a dumb and foolish (low Int and low Wis) NPC. However, sometimes, NPCs aren't all that vulnerable to cheap tactics and using such tactics may well be a waste of effort and/or resources. The "throw the villian off the cliff" tactic with Move Object is sometimes a waste of effort (and a waste of Move Object). So throwing the Mandalorian off the cliff? Are you brain dead? Can't you see he has a jet pack?

Personally, for SW SAGA, while named NPCs are likely to have FPs, they are also subject to the same restriction the PCs are under with regards to Destiny Points. You can't use/don't have Destiny Points if you don't have a Destiny. Most of my villains have a Destiny though, but using those points, while saving them from instant-killed, are likely to result in making them weaker - since it is their Destiny to be run over by my players' PCs! This is the point that I want to make, unless Plot Armored, my NPCs are expendable.

Thanks for all those good ideas

I'm on the fence between not allowing his concept and heavy houseruling. I want to talk to him first before
deciding...unfortunately he is a very competetive player, so i have to be careful.

What's troubling me is: I played SR 3.5 for many years and our mages never were that much of a problem.
So yesterday i looked up the rules for mental manipulations in 3.5 an they were basically the same, just the
drain was way higher. So i finally found out what my real problem is with mages in SR4 ... you could do really
cool things in 3.5 too, but you had to pay for that with drain... and so you didnt use them all the time. In SR4,
drain is way too low and success rates are too high.

For example: Increase Reflexes +3 (giving only +3d6 ini in 3.5 and not +3Passes like in SR4) had a drain of +3T
in SR3.5... that translates in 13Boxes of damage before rolling to resist. In SR4 you only have to resist 4 boxes for
that spell and its the same with many other spells too.

So if i decide to houserule i will take a hard look at drain values. For mental manipulations i will try to make them
a bad decision in combat, but still viable in social situations (but not auto-win)

These are my plans so far:
- there will be an extra willpower roll when demanding something unfavorable, with a big bonus if it puts the subject in danger
- that roll will subtract form earlier successes and the subject will be free (and angry) when successes are 0
- i will use some of the social modifiers as additional dice when resisting (mostly for influence)
- the NPC Fraction will have more magical protection, spirits warning that a spell is cast on them, wards, counterspelling and so on
- recurring NPCs will know the powers of the char and wont talk in person to the group, if they talk at all
- if the char influences one of his contacts (say the fixer or mr. Johnson to get more money), they notice later and wont work with him again
and Drain:
- Drain for all Direct Combat Spells will be +3 (but no longer counting extra successes for extra drain (20th anniv. ed.), i dont like punishing players for good dice rolls)
- Drain for all other spells will be +1 (or even +2?, have to look up SR3.5 again)
- Drain for Healing spell will be Force/2+3 instead of Damage Value -2
- Increase Reflexes will be 3 spells, (+1,+2,+3) with Drain F/2 +2, +4, +6 and Threshold 3, 4, 5
- Drain for Stunbolt and variants will be the same as Powerbolt, Manabolt etc. - not hurting people should be a personal decision, not an economical
- Half Impact Armor can be added when resisting Direct Combat spells like you already can with indirect spells

What do you think of that... too much?
Of course i will discuss this with the player and give him the chance to reroll another char.

Grimflayer: I wouldn't say all of that at once!

As regards willpower rolls when demanding something crazy...
I would suggest you borrow the concept of "Unacceptable Orders" from Exalted. So giving someone an obviously suicidal order not only doesn't work, but breaks your mental hold on them. Orders such as "shoot yourself in the head" or "go pull a gun on that Lone Star pig" would only work on someone who is already in bad enough headspace that they'd be likely to do it on their own.

I'd also suggest you give people another roll with a bonus if they're being told to attack or otherwise do something terrible to people they care about, with varying bonuses based on how much they care about. The average sprawl ganger probably would not get a reroll, let alone a bonus, if you told him to shank someone he was unconnected to. Ask him to shoot his posse, however, and he gets a huge bonus. Ask him to shoot his loved ones and he gets a titanic bonus.

That would leave mental manipulations in the realm of "sneaksy," but not in the realm of "every command is absolute domination." Convincing a gang member to pick a shooting fight with a member of a rival gang (something he likely wants anyway,) wouldn't be hard at all. Convincing him to try to stage a mutiny in the gang (if he's not already inclined to do so,) not so much. Convincing him to put a gun to his daughter's head and pull the trigger should be the sort of thing only terrifyingly initiated mages should be capable of.

I'd also suggest letting anyone with Edge spend a point of it to shake off any influence they're under, and be immune to further influence from that source for the rest of the day, or scene at least.


And if someone uses mental influence on a contact or Johnson, for any reason, and are caught out doing it (and be fair about it, they might be good enough to hide their influence attempt,) that contact should at the very least stop talking to them. More likely they'd warn everyone they were also connected with, which could result in a character being Hung Out to Dry if they did something retarded like magicking their Fixer into giving them a stupid deal on something very expensive. Have the contact send off a parting shot to the effect of "I hope it was worth it, you bastard, that's the last you're seeing out of me, ever."

My advice is that should you introduce house rules, you should enforce them (like all other rules) consistently. So NPC mages will also labor under the same set of rules. The game world should also be modified to reflect your house rules, sec mages not bothering with Stun spells because their Rules of Engagement probably allow them to use lethal force. And most runners act accordingly as a result. Or less sec mages are bothering to learn Direct Combat Spells because the effectiveness of such spells are lessened. Or competent sec mages with Direct Combat Spells are rarer and thus such mages are only assigned to higher value targets or very high value targets. These are some of the several knock-on effects that I can think of off hand.

I would recommend against the Drain increases. It doesn't lessen the power of the spellcasting, just how many times you can do it before becoming incapacitated. Thus, by their nature, these rules will favor NPC mages, who typically only have to last for a single combat encounter. And they will suck fun out of the game for PC mages, who will be deprived of the quick, dirty, comparatively low-Drain spells that they need to be able to function. They will be like first level D&D mages, who cast their sleep or magic missile spell and then are all but useless for the rest of the gaming session.

Drain in SR3 was a very different beast. Successes reduced the Drain by one level per two successes, with a variable TN, using Willpower plus allocated Spell Pool or foci dice. So for example, someone casting a 6D stunbolt would have to make 8 successes with a TN of 2 to completely escape Drain. More likely than you might think, with the low TN and the amount of bonus dice a mage in SR3 could get. However, even one net success would drop the target. Casting it at, say 6M, you would only need 4 successes. And you would still be likely to drop the target.

In SR4, you would only need to get 2 successes to soak the Drain from a Force: 6 stunbolt, but you are rolling against a fixed TN of 5, and you are only doing 6 plus net successes with it. Raising the Drain from 2 to 5 will make everyday casting of one of the most low-Drain spells in the game risky. It's too much, in my opinion. Players already shy away from using indirect combat spells, which have Drain only 1 or 2 points higher.

Grimflayer. There is no reason for you to be dragging out all of those houserules. I can follow you with regards to upping the drain on the Stun spells, and some of the combat spells, but you don't need to go overboard. The Drain values might not look so tough, but let's say for instance a F6 spell with a F/2+2 drain. That's 5 Drain. Statistically that's 15+ dice to soak, and 20+ if the GM will let you buy the successes on a 4-for-1 basis. 15+ dice on two mental stats isn't all that easy to get. It's not impossible, but it's not easy. The Mage can of course cast at a lower Force, but if he's stuck with 2-4 hits before the target get to resist, it starts getting to be a cointoss whether he'll succeed or not. And if he does get the spell through, the target will get a new roll within a few rounds, and with only a couple of net hits, it isn't going to take the target all that long to break the spell. And the character is still liable to take a box or two worth of damage from the Drain. Also keep the limits of the spells in mind. Does the mage need to actively control the target, or can he do other stuff at the same time? It makes a big difference. Also bear in mind that it's not much fun to play a mage, if you can only expect to be able to cast only two or three spells during a run, before you have to go over to using your gun, and then pray that you don't get hit, because you won't stay on your feet with another couple of boxes worth of stun damage. As a mage player I would never even considder going for a spell that would land me with around 13 boxes worth of damage, except as a very last resort! Short of mindbogglingly good luck, you can expect to be taking at least 5, and more likely 7-8 boxes worth of damage. That's approaching "Man Down!" territory, and you sure as hell isn't going to be casting any more spells with that kind of Drain, until you are rested.

Mental spells can be very powerful, but the real equalizer on them is the consequences of being discovered using them. The mental mage is basically the nightmare horror story people talk about and fear, and every time he casts one of those type of spells, he's rolling the dice so to speak. Because he will be picking up notoriety left, right, and center for doing it, once the rumours start running. And if he's ever stupid enough to pull something like that against a fixer or similar contact, he should expect to become an outcast and "Hung Out To Dry". Additionally, if he casts one of those spells against an opposition, he might as well have cast a slaying spell, because it will be classed in the same way, and that will very quickly get him "Wanted". Low level mooks might not have much of a chance against him, but on Corp. ground he'll run into opposing mages the moment it's discovered what he is, and if the Corp. realises that it's up against a mental-mage, you can be quite sure that it won't take them long to launch the defensive drones to deal with him, instead of using their flesh-n-blood guards.

If the character wants to play a mental mage, let him. But make him aware that if he runs around spamming these spells, he'll effectively be painting a bullseye on himself, because everybody will end up being out to get him.

Other have excellent points, but one thing I'd point out also is that Control Mob, like all AOE spells, only affects those you can see. In terms of "serious" oppositions, the guards or whatever aren't all going to happily sit in your field of vision. They will work to surround and come at angles. You're only going to *see* 1 or 2 guys at a time, so it's not a situation of casting Control Mob once and everyone dies. You'll need to repeatedly cast it to catch the bad guys. And then you're looking at the same typical power level where a competent runner can usually grease one bad guy per round, or nearly so. So, he falls in line with the typical power level.

Thanks for your opinions

Thanks also for pointing out that i remembered drain in 3.5 completely wrong. Seems i have to think again about a higher Drain in general.

But to my defense: Increasing Drain for Direct Combat Spells by +2 is actually a boost, since the current rules (20th Anniversary Ed. Page 204)
state that every net success raises drain by +1. If i dont change this, people are punished for rolling good.
And if i ignore this rule, Stunbolt gets the one and only Combat-Spell with Drain F/2-1

My math is also a bitt different: I think my player will mostly use Force 5 (he rolls 14 Dice, so he wont need more and its 1 Drain less),
so we have a Drain of 1 Box for Stunbolt, 3 Boxes for most Single Target Spells, 4+ Boxes for Mob Control and other Area spells with
exception of the indirect spells. Thats not that much, with 14 Dice he will easily get 4 Successes, so he gets Drain only if he rolls really bad...
i have to admit i lack the experience how often such rolls come up.


@DoomFrog: Thanks... i've forgotten about concentration, and the possibility of having his own people mind controlled is another
asset for me when fighting in close quarters which is fairly often

Another option for increasing drain (I think it's an optional rule somewhere) is to have it depend upon the targets successes for direct combat and mind control spells. So drain increases by 1 for every hit they get on the opposed roll. This means there's a chance of a +3 or +4 drain if your opposition is good or lucky. For a group, use the highest resistance roll to determine the drain increase. So against low level or weak opponents, the drain is still not a big threat, but against another mage or a high will target you're better off going with another avenue. This also has the added bonus of making banishing and other ways of dealing with spirits more appealing than just stunballing them.

Well, remember, the "Rule" that you are quoting is only an OPTIONAL Rule. It is by no means the default.

That is not a current rule - it was changed by something like the second printing and now exists only as an optional rule.

OP:
You forgot some of the biggest nerfs to spellcasters. LoS & visibility modifiers.

If the targets are in cover they get the cover bonus to their spell resistance rolls.
The caster takes a -visibility penalty to his casting pool.

So it's very easy for a mook to roll 7 dice to resist without counterspelling if he finds good cover.

Your assertion that 4 drain is easy to resist repeatedly is also wrong. Look at the bell curve for 12 dice on drain... the number of times that 3, 2, 1, or 0 results is rolled is quite substantial... nearly a third of the time. The average drain is actually 0.64 per casting... 40% of the time the target will take 1 to 4 drain and 60% will resist all the drain.


Another good trick against this kind of shenanigans a spirit bound to long term or paid karma for a year service to simply patrol the grounds concealed while providing counterspelling to the inhabitants. Something like a plant or guardian spirit for example... it has magical guard and concealment powers.


Quite frankly, all you're doing is exposing a classic problem that comes up. You get the normal nerf direct spells camp who then ignore that if a mage doesn't have reliable combat spell to eliminate opposition quickly and efficiently he'll find another.

Really would it be that much different if he simply stunballed the group of them into unconsciousness? Then proceeded to slit the throats of anyone who needed to die.


Also Grimflayer... increasing the raw drain of those spells is a BAD idea. You have tons of threads on the subject and most of them reflect people who can't do math. Ignore the secondary elemental effects, etc. You also forget the part of the rules which state 'may use net successes to increase damage'. I could cast a direct combat spell... and not use any net successes to increase the damage and the drain. I've played with the optional rule as published and it does work rather well for slowing down direct spells. As you no longer get hits to increase damage for free. Which leaves you with the choice of overcasting or multicasting... either of which substantially increase the drain to get the same effect. Again remember the rules say that you don't need to use net successes to increase damage.

Speaking as a player who just finished playing a character with a deadly focus on mind alteration spells. Being a GM myself and aware of balance/fun issues, I had thought about the concerns mentioned previously mentioned, so I came up with a few compromises. My build wasn't far from the OP's set-up. Here's what I had

7 Cha, 4 Willpower, Black Magic Tradition, Spellcasting 5, Magic 5.
I'd initially had Mob Control, but realizing the concerns about party-fun levels, I toned it down to Control Actions.

Mind Probe, Stun Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Heal, Influence, Shapechange, and Improved Reflexes rounded out my spell list. I know I could have had more, but I had other things I wanted first.

This character concept was a mage detective with a more ruthless bend. Relying on notoriety (Bad Rep, an Alcohol addiction, and my mind alteration spells gave me a starting Notoriety of 7 IIRC) to fuel Intimidation checks to scare information out of people when I didn't want to rely on spells to do it.
In combat, only exceptionally irritating members of the OPFOR got the business end of Control Actions. I'd use Stunbolt/Lightning Bolt as needed.

Note that the game I was in, there was a house rule in effect that put the Rule of 6 always on, but for every one we got, it negated a 6 from 'exploding.' It was an interesting houserule to say the least.

Either way, as the game got going, I picked up more control type spells (Alter Memory, Orgy) and boosted my summoning capacity to great heights.

Only once did I have to resort to Control Actions excessively. When we walked into an ambush in which one of the Street Sams made us a giant target. While everyone else was patching themselves up and trying to get limited suppression fire. My answer was Control Actions to force one of the OPFOR to drop a hand-grenade down his vest. A few more guys were forced to blow away their friends until all of our mundane arms came to bear to get us out of that ambush.

It's a character concept that can work, but the player has to be prepared to make concessions. It's still a fun ride.

All area effect spells can cause problems. Any bad guys stupid enough to stay bunched in mutual grenade or mob control range deserve what they get.