SMGs and light pistols tend to get overlooked in favor of their larger cousins (Assault Rifles and Heavy Pistols, for anyone who hasn't had their coffee and is still waiting for their brains to click into gear), with almost the sole exception of stealth purposes.

Fair enough. Bigger guns have bigger bullets, thus do more damage and penetrate armor better. I am in no way suggesting that is wrong.

What I am suggesting is that the smaller weapon categories could use a minor benefit that might give them a bit of a niche boost against the big boys.

Light pistols: more compact than a heavy pistol but more ergonomic than a hold out, giving light pistols a +1 or even +2 bonus on quick draw checks would make them marginally more attractive as a backup weapon, solely because if you're only OK with pistols then you're more likely to get that extra shot off than if you were packing a heavy.

SMGs: With the shorter barrel compared to the AR and BR, giving SMGs an extra +1 to hit at point blank range (when used correctly) due to their maneuverability isn't really that game breaking and makes them more attractive during an assault where extreme close range is likely.

Thoughts?

Funny, I rarely equip anything biger than a SMG. And there are a LOT of choices for my Gun Porn in the categories of Light Pistol, Heavy Pistol, Machine Pistols, and Submachine guns. Love me my Gun Porn.

The Other categories have their niche, to be sure, but I far prefer something that is a bit concealable.

These house rules do not raise any red flags that I can see and fix a small issue - good work.

Perhaps larger weapons give a penalty to Agility Limit (5th edition)?

1) There is no agility limit.

2) Weapons have their own accuracy values, which act as limits. But it's already been stated that things like snipers will have the best values, which seems to imply smaller guns != higher limits.

With weapon Accuracy in 5th edition, I've thought it would be a simple overlay you could apply to the weapon range chart for weapon classes.

So an SMG might get +2 Acc / -- / -2 Acc at Short/Med/Long ranges.

While a sniper rifle might get -4 / +2 / +2. I'd try to keep the sum to 0.

Sorry, wasn't clear. I did not mean modify any limits in regards to SHOOTING with the weapon. I really meant apply a limit to any other Agility based tests. Like, a long-barreled sniper rifle gets in the way if you're trying to be all acrobatic and stuff.

A better way to do this is:

Light and Holdout pistols reduce the THRESHOLD of a quickdraw test by 1. This makes their last-ditch concealable role significantly better.

For more maneuverable close-combat weapons, improving/negating some of the Cover Bonus by 1, much in the way the Mercenary quality (WotSammy) does, and/or reducing the Run Penalty by 1 seems fitting.

I'm actually kind of a fan of certain smaller weapons if they're well modded.

Ingram SuperMach 100 (60 Round Variant)
+ Gas Vent 3
+ Personalied Grip
+ Cyberarm Gyromount
= 11 RC and 12 round Full Bursts due to High Velocity weapon

Throws out 15P Narrow Bursts with 0 Recoil. Slightly better Concealability than an Assault Rifle - add Chameleon Coating and stick it in a concealable holster and it ends up with the same Concealability as a stock heavy pistol. Generous ammo capacity allowing for 5 HV Full Bursts before reloading.

If not for the Shiawase Arms Tactical Model 73, it'd be better in my mind than any Assault Rifle. As it stands, the Model 73 is slightly more expensive and less available, slightly less Concealable, has 1 less point of RC due to the lack of a stock, but has an even larger ammo capacity as well an extra point of damage. I'll gladly suffer 1 die worth of recoil for the ability to toss out eight 16P Narrow Bursts before having to reload. Oh, and it's more moddable, since it comes with a Smartgun System and Electronic Firing preinstalled, as well as an Advanced Safety System and Reduced Weight thrown in for good measure.

Addendum: One thing that can make the difference between the two weapons, at least in 4E, is that an SMG can be wielded in one hand, while an assault rifle takes two. Thus, the SuperMach is better in niche circumstances such as wanting to dual wield, or possessing a single maxed agility cyberarm.

~Umi

The Cyberarm Gyro only provides 3 RC. So you only get 10 RC. You could however use that setup on a pair of SuperMachs. Fire a Long burst with each weapon. You can even fire the bursts without penalty while running.

Hindered Movement
Anyone carrying one or more pieces of gear that have a positive Concealability modifier suffers a
dice pool penalty equal to half that number (round up) on any test involving Physical skills that
are linked to Physical attributes unless the gear is properly stored on your body.

Shiawase arms tactical model 73 with extended clip (25%) and additional clip = 250 rounds before you have to reload. That is completely insane, and well worth the effort of modding.

Gotta agree here. My choices include:
Light Pistol: AS-113o (fires injection needles), Fubuki Sakura (huge clips, low recoil)
SMG: Ingram Smartgun X/HK 227-X (both of them come with a Suppressor at Availability R, making them prime candidates for modding), FN Praetor (modded with High Velocity)

Granted, the number of viable choices are lower in those two categories, but they often offer something unique to make it worthwile. If I had to adjust Light Pistols and SMGs, here is what I would do: Lower or possibly negate the firing in melee penalty.

I'd go the other way around. I'd increase the penalty for more bulky weapons. The penalty is ridiculously low as it is (especially if you use the optional rules form Arsenal).

I've toyed with a houserule where all penalties for Sniper Rifles, Assault Cannons and MMGs/HMGs are doubled when the user is in melee. E.g. wound penalties are doubled too, because an unwieldy weapon sucks even harder in CQC when you're distracted/bleeding out.

With mods, the SuperMach has 3 RC base, 3 from Gas Vent, 3 from the Gyro, 1 from the Personalized Grip, and 1 from the folding stock (which stacks with the rest, at least according to Arsenal p. 148).

~Umi

Ah I forgot the folding stock.

Pretty much More Dakka™ than you really need.

~Umi

Unfortunately that otherwise mavellous firearm does not use clips:



It's ammunition storage type is ml = Muzzle Loader. It need 1 complex Action to Load 1 Muzzle Tube. So it is 4 complex actions to reload the whole thing.

So I would advise to either make sure you do not ever need more than 13 Bursts without a break, bring several of those just in case or choose another gun

That High Velocity FN Praetor I posted is for those cases exactly

Nah, you can neva haf enuff dakka!

The drone mounted FA Barret comes close but still...

Since we're on the topic of gun size and whatnot, I have a question that I asked once before on these forums and never got an answer.

Okay, so cybershotguns. Implanted in your arm, operate like any other cybergun, right? And they also operate like any other shotgun, right?

One problem. Shotguns are two-handed weapons. They're also the only type of two-handed weapon that has a cybergun equivalent, with all the other cyberguns being one-handed firearms.

But presumably because the cybershotgun is installed in a single arm, it doesn't require two hands, yes? So if I have a single cyberlimb with modified 9 Agility, I can use the cybershotgun inside it without having to average my cyberarm's Agility with the rest of my body? That seems logical to me, at least.

But here's the kicker. Does this allow me to dual-wield shotguns with only a standard off-hand penalty if I have two cyberlimbs with cybershotguns?

~Umi

That would be how I would rule it.




Arsenal says that only SMGs or lighter weapons can be dual-wielded, so chances are it wouldn't work

But the weapon is internal, inside your arm. That's smaller than an SMG that you hold in your hand, no?

~Umi

That may be true, but the rules don't care about size, just class:
What you could do however is shoot with one shotgun in one simple action and then shoot with the other in the next, which is better most of the time anyways.

You would be correct, except Arsenal supersedes or supplants the corebook ruling with the following wording:

So size is currently the important factor, and I believe rightly so. For example, there are numerous "pistol" sized items that are not in the Pistol "Class" of weapons, among them various Exotic Ranged Weapons, as well as unusual pieces like the short barreled Defiance T-250 shotgun or the MGL-6 which is the "pistol version" of the ArmTech MGL-12 Grenade Launcher. Likewise there are SMG-sized items that are much the same, such as the Shiawase Blazer.

~Umi

That's better then. I don't know though why one would want to dual-wield two single shot weapons like the blazer. Except for the different skill used there is not much going for the pistol sized T-250.