So, like so many I picked up the PDF of SR5 yesterday, and personally I am really enjoying it. I've only been able to so far make a few character (But it was a so quick!) and have them duke it out a little.

I was wondering though, can you use Karma during chargen to initiate or submerge? I couldn't find anything that said you can, but I also didn't see a definite "No" either.

Also, does anyone else find that Watchers are now part of a ritual casting weird?

i had the same question. Didn't see anything that said you couldn't.

Imagine they will cover this more in the Runner Followup book.

Until then, more power to you!

I don't see any of the Metatechniques being particularly unbalancing, but then again, this kind of thing often elicits knee-jerk reactions from some people.

i don't think they intended that as a possibility... it's not discussed at all in the chargen section.

that said, given you're probably going to be getting a discount if you do it after chargen that you wouldn't get if you do it during chargen, i don't see any reason why not.

Thanks. I remember either in the 3rd or 4th edition when you used the Karma build system I was able to start out with an Ally Spirit, which while not any way game breaking, was pretty sweet.

I believe there is a sectiuon in chargen that talks about spending Karma that didnt go on positive waulities and it lists what you can spend it on there. Initiation and Submergence are not listed.

What page is this on?

page 98. under the heading "Step 7: Spending Your Leftover Karma".

Ah. I'm reading that passage to allow initiation.

Let's dissect the passage which refers to this table: "Any remaining Karma can now be invested in smoothing out any rough edges, picking up or improving skills, buying additional spells, acquiring bound spirits, bonding foci to be used at the start of the game, purchasing contacts, etc. Refer to the Additional Purchases and Restrictions table to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with Karma. If a player wishes to keep some Karma for use later in the game, she may do so, though the maximum carryover is 7 Karma. When raising skills and attributes, keep in mind the various restrictions of character creation: Only one attribute can be at the natural attribute limit, and gear is restricted to items with Device Ratings of 6 or less or an Availability of 12 or less. These rules still apply to when you are spending Karma. "

Emphases mine, obviously. I've highlighted these words to point a few things out:

--"Smoothing out any rough edges/etc.": These words seem to imply that anything not specifically prohibited should be allowed. Note that neither attributes nor gear is mentioned in this list.

--"...to note any special restrictions on purchasing items with karma.": The word "to" is crucial here; I'm taking it to mean that one can make Karma purchases as normal except where noted on the chart. If one could only purchase items on the chart, once couldn't purchase attributes or gear--both items clearly meant to be allowed by....

--"...skills and attributes.../...attribute.../...gear...": This passage is poorly edited, because it says "skills and attributes" at the beginning and then describes the limitations for gear and attributes. with that said, there are two implications of note here. First, attributes and gear are (here and elsewhere) shown to be included as options for purchase; second, neither of their relevant limits are included on the table. This furthers the hypothesis that the chart is only meant to restrict the items mentioned, ant not all others by omission.

In other words, because there is no text to the contrary and generous language in the opening part of the passage, my reading is that one can pretty clearly initiate (or submerge) during step seven of creation.

Karma is karma. Regardless of whatever ruling comes down from the company in any games I run karma from step 7 can be spent in any way that karma gained after the game starts can be spent.

I really dont think initiation should be (and dont think it is) allowed at charakter creation.

If it would be possible, there would be an obvious imbalanced tweak:
1. Take adept for Prio B
2. Spend essence and money on Augmentations (and reduce your Magic 6 to e.g. 4)
3. Initiate twice
4. Rise Magic to 6 with that points from metatype prio for special attribtues.
5. Start the game with magic 6, 2 essence of augmentations, twice initiated (2 more powerpoints)

Thats not how it was intendet to work i strongly believe and i think anyone with at least log 1 would agree.

Pretty sure this doesn't work. The wording between pages 66 ("Mental and Physical Attributes" during the Chargen process) and page 71, specifically the Example sidebar on page 70, means that you spend the Special Attribute points during this step (Step Two: Choose Metatype) and those aren't available during or after the Karma process.

Then again, there is the example of one player spending attribute points to get the extra point of strength His GM has given him permission to buy the quality for, despite not having gotten to the Karma step. Assuming that the example is valid, then it seems there is some back-and-forth allowed.

That example explicitly states that he needed to get his GM's permission to be able to spend that point on strength.

I'd say the GM permission was for being allowed to take the quality, not for spending an attribute point on it.

And to add to the thread:
Healing spells and essence (p. 287 and 288):

Is that "rounded up" as in "towards zero if negative" or "towards next higher absolute number".
Or in other words: Is it a 1 die penalty for every full point of lost essence (similar to the first aid modifier) or for every fraction therof (as with magic loss).

And why was it phrased so awkwardly?