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Grimflayer
We will start a new campaign in a few weeks and in our first mission, the players will need to
enter a building with a lot of security. They will have to do it without matrix support since the
Building-Node is not accessible via Matrix (up to a certain point in the adventure)

There will be guards, but security mostly consists of a lot of sensors, cameras, pressure plates,
maglocks and the like.

I've gone over the rules for Sensors, Cameras and Maglocks a few times but i
found them very spread out and thin, unless i overlooked something important.

I found that you need up to 4 extended tests of Logic+Hardware vs. maglocks (1. Open Casing, 2. Defeat AntiTemper-System,
3. Rewire Lock, 4. Close Casing), the second and fourth roll are optional, the third can be left out by using a maglock
sequencer. Sounds like too much roles for a single thing, is anyone using those rules?

I have not much info regarding Sensors and cameras. Can you stealth past them (i can imagine defeating a motion sensor
by going slow, but a pressure plate?)
Can you manipulate them using Logic+Hardware or via hacking? (The Node is not hackable but single sensors are,
if you get close enough, Signal0=3m, but some are wired)
At least the runners know most of the security and the location its installed in, so finding those devices should not be
the problem. Still, how do you go past a camera at the other end of the room. I'm not sure if one of the mages will
pick Improved Invisibility.

How do you do this in your campaigns, are there fixed rules or do you mostly make something up?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
If you are asking about SR4(A), then yes, we use the rules as you outlined, straight from the book.
It can, indeed, be a challenge to bypass multiple types of security simultaneously. smile.gif
Bearclaw
Just a side thought.
Even if the security node is isolated, you can still get to it. Any part of the security system connected to the main system is a wired connection to the security node. Back in the old days (SR 1, 2, 3) that's HOW you got into the security system.
So, the hardware test to break into the case, another hardware test to connect to the cable that plugs into the back of the box, and you are now connected hardwire to the system.
Finster
From a GMing persepctive, the team's fixer could also provide some discounted B&E gear. I almost always make sure to have that gear when I create characters, because having a maglock passkey simplifies things tremendously.
KarmaInferno
A chameleon suit with gecko grip, crawling across the walls or ceiling, can defeat a surprising amount of security.



-k
GiraffeShaman
In regards to cameras. Much relies on how closely they are watched. Things like the professional rating of the guard, how many cameras he has to monitor, how often guards are switched out and given breaks. The ideal situation for the defender is to have one hyper alert guard, who only has to watch one camera, and is so professional he never does anything else. If that's the case, even Improved Invsibility won't work if they have a door, since he'll see the door open. Of course, this ideal situation often isn't the case. Guards sometimes have to watch multiple cameras, get tired, or are just unprofessional and do other things like play AR games on duty.

Perception rolls are very important in regards to security, as the team will probaly fall for any tripwire or pressure plate they don't detect.

It's actually quite easy to create security systems that are impossible to beat, especially for new runners, so be careful. Something advanced like a voice recog lock will shut down a lot of teams completely. And I was recently part of a failed shadowrun that failed simply because we were stupid and caused some doors to be locked on us. My shaman was the only character with any kind of skill that could help us, and I kept failing the Hardware rolls. The police arrived and we barely fleed in time.

What happens if they do set an alarm off? You might have a TPK in the making if there is no margin of error, especially with newbie runners. Sometimes you just gotta give newbies some milk runs so they can get some gear and karma before tackling real systems.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 16 2013, 09:26 AM) *
A chameleon suit with gecko grip, crawling across the walls or ceiling, can defeat a surprising amount of security.

-k


Indeed it can. smile.gif
Sendaz
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jul 16 2013, 11:26 AM) *
A chameleon suit with gecko grip, crawling across the walls or ceiling, can defeat a surprising amount of security.



-k

The Red with Black webbing design print is only 5% extra to cost. biggrin.gif

Using a minispeaker system to play appropriate music will defeat the stealth attempt though.
Skynet
*Spiderorc, spiderorc, does whatever a spiderorc does..* SCNR wink.gif
cndblank
Don't forget social engineering.

Who ordered the pizza?


Also why go through the guarded armored door when you can use a chainsaw to go through the roof or a wall.
Bearclaw
A good enough etiquette and con skill should get you through just about anything. Stealth and combat skills are to make up for not having good enough social skills.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Bearclaw @ Jul 17 2013, 09:04 AM) *
A good enough etiquette and con skill should get you through just about anything. Stealth and combat skills are to make up for not having good enough social skills.


Disagree with this. I have been in installations that, no matter what you said or did, if you were not on the "approved access list" you did not get in.
Wired_SR_AEGIS
QUOTE (cndblank @ Jul 17 2013, 03:52 PM) *
Don't forget social engineering.


"Only amateurs attack machines; professionals target people." - Bruce Schneier

-Wired_SR_AEGIS
GiraffeShaman
QUOTE
Disagree with this. I have been in installations that, no matter what you said or did, if you were not on the "approved access list" you did not get in.

Yep. Social kills can be very useful, but there are hard limits and they are not mind control. If the Company Men guarding a black site full of technomancer brains in jars are told to kill anyone trying to get in the site that's just what they are going to do. It doesn't matter how winning the smile of Mr. Pornomancer is.

Social skills work on holes in a system. Most systems have holes because most places like businesses need to allow workers and visitors in and out. With an ultra paranoid black site your only possibility of a con may be to impersonate a guard or scientist who actually belongs there, and they probaly make that very hard to do. For example, the scientists and guards may never leave. The guards may do extended tours of say 3 months each, rather than the typical shift switches at normal sites.

Is this expensive and extreme? Yes, but they are guarding Technomancer brains in jars, sweet tasty brains.
Flaser
QUOTE (GiraffeShaman @ Jul 18 2013, 03:40 AM) *
Yep. Social kills can be very useful, but there are hard limits and they are not mind control. If the Company Men guarding a black site full of technomancer brains in jars are told to kill anyone trying to get in the site that's just what they are going to do. It doesn't matter how winning the smile of Mr. Pornomancer is.

Social skills work on holes in a system. Most systems have holes because most places like businesses need to allow workers and visitors in and out. With an ultra paranoid black site your only possibility of a con may be to impersonate a guard or scientist who actually belongs there, and they probaly make that very hard to do. For example, the scientists and guards may never leave. The guards may do extended tours of say 3 months each, rather than the typical shift switches at normal sites.

Is this expensive and extreme? Yes, but they are guarding Technomancer brains in jars, sweet tasty brains.


You're forgetting about outlier events, like what would happen if the legitimate owners/commanders of the operation wanted access to bring someone or something on/off site? What about their agent?

http://www.highprogrammer.com/alan/gaming/...vival_tips.html

"Identification, Authentication, and Authorization are actually separate problems and often represent separate procedures that with loopholes between them."

So if the pornomancer player just waltzes up to the guards and tries to get by with his wining smile, all he gets is some offers for coffee / bullet to the brain (depends on the local policy on romance)... if he actually puts in the work of *finding out* all this stuff and properly games the system then I'm gonna let him work his magic.
toturi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 18 2013, 07:26 AM) *
Disagree with this. I have been in installations that, no matter what you said or did, if you were not on the "approved access list" you did not get in.

Then a very simple solution presents itself. All you need to say or do is to get on said list, even if you weren't on the list beforehand.
Rystefn
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 17 2013, 11:26 PM) *
Disagree with this. I have been in installations that, no matter what you said or did, if you were not on the "approved access list" you did not get in.



You had insufficient social skills. Although, I would modify to say that with sufficient legwork and good enough social skills, you can get by almost anything.

To the original problem, though, in addition to the above: have you considered cutting the power? Cameras and maglocks are paperweights without electricity. Combine it with a few sets of coveralls and hardhats, and you shouldn't have too much trouble.

None of which is useful if the players don't think that way. For your case, I'd say, yes it all hacks the way you're thinking. Yes, stealth works on cameras, about normal in real-time, much harder for when the sec expert is looking for you later on. Pressure sensors need to be hacked or avoided (note, low-tech hacks like putting cinder blocks on either side and a board over it count, but probably will bone your stealth for avoiding the cameras).

Most of all, though, don't be afraid to wing it when your players do something unexpected or if you look in the book and can't find what you're looking for. Let your players throw some dice at whatever skill seems relevant, give them whatever threshhold seems to give them a decent chance or a long shot (whichever you think the test should be), and they'll probably be happy.

The rules lawyers want it be exactly right, but everyone else just wants it be awesome.
toturi
QUOTE (Rystefn @ Jul 21 2013, 10:25 AM) *
The rules lawyers want it be exactly right, but everyone else just wants it be awesome.

The rules lawyers want it to be exactly right which is awesome.
Rystefn
QUOTE (toturi @ Jul 21 2013, 04:16 AM) *
The rules lawyers want it to be exactly right which is awesome.


Well since every RPG ever has a rule clearly stated that Rule of Cool trumps Rules as Written, awesome is always right, whether it contradicts any other rule in the game or not. biggrin.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ Jul 20 2013, 08:11 PM) *
Then a very simple solution presents itself. All you need to say or do is to get on said list, even if you weren't on the list beforehand.


In the installations I was a part of, not really. It was so very rare to ever see an unknown face out of the blue that is was effectively a non-event.
People rotated in and out, to be sure, but there was an extended familiarization process that went along with it. In Shadowrun it can be done, to be sure, but it would not be in the realm of your Social Skills.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 21 2013, 11:19 AM) *
In the installations I was a part of, not really. It was so very rare to ever see an unknown face out of the blue that is was effectively a non-event.
People rotated in and out, to be sure, but there was an extended familiarization process that went along with it. In Shadowrun it can be done, to be sure, but it would not be in the realm of your Social Skills.

In a situation like that you could infiltrate but it would be a bit round about.

You would need to know they were rotating in some new faces, intercept and replace one of those -taking their place and going through the orientation/acclamation process. You might have even been the reason they had to rotate a new face in....

You heard about Bob in Department 7? Yeah, heard they found him inside what was left of his car at the bottom of Bunyun Chasm. Weird that he was out that way since he was supposed to be visiting family for his mum's funeral and they lived in the other direction.....

This is usually a good job for the Face as they would have the social skills to cover minor errors, but you will have to adapt depending on who is being replaced.

Something like this is sort of like the start of Return of the Jedi with Luke's buddies having already worked their way inside Jabba's place, but it takes time and access to certain levels of information making it not for a fast job.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Sendaz @ Jul 21 2013, 09:47 AM) *
In a situation like that you could infiltrate but it would be a bit round about.

You would need to know they were rotating in some new faces, intercept and replace one of those -taking their place and going through the orientation/acclamation process. You might have even been the reason they had to rotate a new face in....

You heard about Bob in Department 7? Yeah, heard they found him inside what was left of his car at the bottom of Bunyun Chasm. Weird that he was out that way since he was supposed to be visiting family for his mum's funeral and they lived in the other direction.....

This is usually a good job for the Face as they would have the social skills to cover minor errors, but you will have to adapt depending on who is being replaced.

Something like this is sort of like the start of Return of the Jedi with Luke's buddies having already worked their way inside Jabba's place, but it takes time and access to certain levels of information making it not for a fast job.


Indeed, for something like that, you are in for the Long Haul. It will not be a few days and done. And I would have no issues with that. Done one or two runs like that myself, where I was a transfer (to the Mitsuhama Towers Matrix Security Division in Hong Kong). Spent almost a Month on the Job before the run went down. Was a hell of a lot of fun.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 21 2013, 12:09 PM) *
Done one or two runs like that myself, where I was a transfer (to the Mitsuhama Towers Matrix Security Division in Hong Kong). Spent almost a Month on the Job before the run went down. Was a hell of a lot of fun.

Yeaaaaahhhh, we heard some of what that 'On the Job' entailed from the secretary pool my cousin had to debrief afterwards. wink.gif

Oh and Suki, Chi chi, Blossom, Jing Wei, Tzu-yun, Ah Lam, Chan-juan, and Candy (seriously, who hires a secretary named Candy and not expect to get flak for it?) each wanted him to pass on the following to you if ever he had the chance:

打电话给我 (Dǎ dinhu gěi wǒ which means 'Call Me' to the rest of us gwailos)
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