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ElFenrir
It was suggested I give this it's own thread, so I figured why not.

Disclaimer: I know SR5 just came out. I'm not trying to be like all 'damn, SR5 Prio System is broke n stuff.' I personally like how the Prio system is set up-however, I also like Karmagen. I know others like Karmagen. So I figured, why not. I don't think it'll hurt anything.

WARNING: TEXT BOMB INCOMING.

Okay, so my base plan. I'm running with *730* Karma. After considering the freebies people got in the line(and they're taken out, so you need to buy Magic and such), as well as some changes here and there, and the Bonus Karma, it was between 700-750, and I decided on 700+Bonus Karma and then rounded up 5 more for 730.

I'm nixing the freebie points; no free Magic or Skills. As cool as they are, it's give and take, and Karmagen gives up the bennies for what is essentially complete character control. It's a fair enough trade, IMO.



-Nuyen will be on a 1 for 2,000 basis, capping at 450k. Which means up to 225 Karma can be spent. (Debating up to 500k. I might go with 500k. Need to consider. It's 250 Karma, so it's a over a third of it, which sounds pretty fair to me. Or 470k, reflecting what one can get with Bonus Karma included. That would be 235 points worth. Still waffling on the maximum here.)

-Attributes cost as the book, New Rating x 5. See the next section, though, for how I deal with modifiers in this. You are allowed to spend up to 420 Karma on Attributes. Special Attributes are not counted in this, but you don't get the freebie points either, remember. You can still only have 1 at the natural max(again, special attributes not counted.)

-Skills are skills. They cost skill cost from the book.

-Under Karmagen, as said, no more freebie points for Magic or other Special Attributes-they're going to come right from the pool, but NOT count against the max allowed Attribute Points.

-Magic, Adept, and Technomancy should have a cost, but I don't feel this should be excessive-20 Karma for a Full Mage or Mystic Adept, 10 for an Adept or Technomancer is what I'm playing with.

-Going to be giving free Knowledge and Language, as well as Contact Karma. Knowledge/Language Karma, I saw how much Karma it would cost to take 4 Knowledge Skills at Rating 3, Plus 1 Language at 3. That's 30 Karma. This, IMO, is appropriate for someone with 3's in Intuition and Logic. 3+3=6x5=30, so I think Int+Logx5 Knowledge and Language Karma is pretty solid.

-Contacts. I think a cost of Loyalty + Connection x2 works for the Contact Costs. Under standard rules, a 3 Charisma nets 9 Contact Points. I'd say Cha x 6 Karma would equalize it. Since 9 contact points would come out to two Contacts, one 2/3, one 2/2. Under Karma, these guys would cost 10 and 8 each. 3x6=18. Works out well.

-Spells cost 5 Karma each, up to twice a person's Magic is allowed.

-Mystic Adept Power Points costs 5 Karma each, up to their Magic rating.

-Technomancer Complex Forms are 4 Karma each as per the book.

-Race Cost so far will be 35(Elf), 55(Dwarf), 65(Ork), and 130(Troll.) All stats are purchased from 1. No minuses, but then the new stats are added on. In-game, stats are purchased the same. So at chargen, it costs an Elf 25 Karma for Agility 4. (3+1=4.) In game, if he wants to buy it to 5, he'll pay 20 Karma(since a 4 would be 20 Karma normally.) A Troll buying Body 6 at chargen pays 10 Karma. In-game, they'll pay 15 Karma for a 7. They'll pay 25 Karma to raise their Charisma to 3 at the start. If they buy their Cha to 2 at chargen, it's 10 Karma, the 3 in game will cost 15. So all costs are the same, solving that issue. Yes-this means Humans purchase Edge as if it were one point lower; their 3 edge at Chargen will cost 10 Karma, or their 3 Edge in game will cost 10 Karma.

To put it short, if a stat would have a minus, it's purchased as normal in game or in chargen. If a stat has a bonus, it's purchased at a level of 'Current Stat-Bonus'. It will still cost a Troll who wants to get maxed-out Body; yes, his Body 10 will cost the same in game as a Human 6, but the Human also started with more Karma.

Metahuman Costs were adjusted appropriately, using the formula I had whipped up in a lower post. With a higher cost at the start, it'll help counterbalance the attribute costs in game. It will also make it so people aren't pushed to play a 'stereotype' for a certain race, but they won't be penalized if they wish to, either.

Whew. Again-this is the first draft. I'm still tinkering with concepts to ensure certain concepts don't end up destroying or not. It's going to take more time to perfect.

EDIT 1: Changed Race costs and how that's purchased. No more minuses. Currently: Draft 2. Took out examples since they were made under the old draft.

New Concerns: Trolls may still be undercost. Other races feel fine. Concern for Trolls being able to raise their big stats super fast in game, though it won't be cheap to do so in any case(a Troll who starts with Body 8 and wants a 10 in game will still need to pay 25 for the 9, and 30 for the 10, and 55 Karma is nothing to sneeze at. I don't think it sounds that inappropriate, but tables who heap on extraordinary amounts of Karma awards may find them progressing quickly.)
Elve
A similar approach is found at http://sr.notme.de/BeCKS_v5
ElFenrir
Played with some math of that one. Umm...OUCH. Metas are FAR, FAR too overpriced.

Now, as I made clear-I'm all for having to pay for bennies and no free lunch. Totally. But...okay, first their meta costs:

QUOTE
Human 0
Ork 55
Elf 55
Dwarf 80
Troll 150



Okay, that's pretty high. But, well, I figure start at 1 and buy up, they went for that method. Then I read this:

QUOTE
Example ó For a human to purchase a starting Body of 4 would cost 45 Karma (10 Karma for Bod 2, plus 15 Karma to raise it to 3, and 20 more to raise it to 4. 10+15+20 = 45 Karma).

For quick reference, the Karma cost for attributes can be found in Table 3. Subtract columns from each other to calculate cost for starting values different from 1.

Example ó For an orc to purchase a starting Body of 5 would cost 45 Karma (70 Karma for Bod 5, minus 25 Karma for Bod 3 (the racial minimum). 70-25 = 45 Karma).



Okay, so...metas actually need to pay almost the old way for their stats along with the big prices.


...For a troll to have all 3's, and two 7's, it costs them 90 points for each 7(135 Karma-45 since their base is 4=90 Karma.) So a 7/3/3/7/3/3/3/3 Troll costs a grand total of 150 for Race, 150 for 6 3's, and 180 for two 7's. 470 Karma? That's like almost ALL of it. (For that spread in my system, it's 375 Karma, including race. Which, IMO, is more appropriate for about those stats.)

For someone to play a 'classic' troll-and not even a minmaxed monster?

8 Body: 175-45=130. 8 Strength: 130. Total: 260. Troll: 150. Total: 410. a 2 in their other 6 stats: 60. Total Cost: 470. Taking a very reasonable 3 Agility and 3 Reaction? Add 30 more points. 500? For 8/3/3/8/2/2/2/2?

...something is more than a bit off with that. I know Trolls are a little troublesome but good god.
Elve
I know, especially with trolls it is a problem. The problem I have with your approach is, you can save Karma in the long run if you push bod and str at chargen and dump the rest, just to raise them later. Starting more balances would waste some points.
ElFenrir
Well, that happens with any of the choices. It happens with BP, it happens with Priority, and it happens with this Becks as well. In the one above, the problem with it-it completely punishes people who want to play their race to it's 'stereotype' or even close to it. Remember also-this is the first draft. What I might end up doing is simply raising Troll cost a bit-perhaps 60 Karma will be more fitting for them. But the one linked is far too restricting, IMO. I expect, though, I'll be tweaking this system a bit.

My other problem with the other one linked is due to the other stuff, I'm more likely to spend as much as I can on Attributes anyway, especially on a Human, Elf, or Dwarf(who are a bit more reasonable cost wise.) I also want to make clear that their base idea I don't think was bad-they were trying to relieve some of the old, silly cost of having to buy up from a high base, but in the process made the Metahumans cost WAY too much. I think if they halved the costs of all the metas, but kept that system, it may have turned out better.

(Thing is with karmagen systems, the biggest thing is, at the end of the day, metahuman cost. Skills? They work as the book. Contact and Knowledge Skill stuff is essentially done before ages ago in the first Becks, so isn't hard. Attribute costs in general follow how the book works. It's just 'how to handle metahuman stats and how much do they cost.' Even Starting Karma is pretty much fully adjustable by table. For me, I feel the more 700 range is more of an 'average' game, judging by the characters I saw made in SR5, with 550-650 more 'Snatch' street level level, under 550 more 'Warriors' street level, and above 750 more prime, with that going up and up. The reason I put 720 was I took into account all of the freebies you got in the book, and then looked at just how powerful most starting characters were, and after fiddling with numbers, under 700 was a bit too little.)
Elve
For those interested:
Calculation of the race costs:

Human: Edge +1 (12 (Lucky) + 10 Karma for the raise); Human Looking (6) = 28 (this is removed by all others)
Elf: +1 Agi (14 + 10); +2 Cha (28+25); Low Light (5) -> 82 -28 = ca 55
Dwarf: +2 Bod (28 + 25); -1 Rea (-14); +2 Str (28+25); +1 Wil (14+10); +2 reists all (8 (16 would be very much)); Infrared (5); Distinctive Style (-5); Lifestyle (-15) = 109-28 = ca 80
Ork: +3 Bod (42+45); +2 Str (28+25); -1 Log (-14); -1 Cha (-14); Lowlight (5); Prejudice (-10); Distinctive Style (-5) = 122 - 18 = ca 90
Troll: +4 Bod (56 + 70); -1 Agi (-14); +4 Str (56+70); -1 Log (-14); -1 Int (-14); -2 Cha (-28); Infra (5); +1 Reach (5); Prejudice (-10); Distinctive Style (-5); +1 dermal (9); Lifestyle (-30) = 166 - 28 = ca 140 (which in total is just the cost for two attributes at 5)
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE
Step 3: Purchase Attributes
Next, purchase the characterís attributes (including
special attributes) using the costs given in the Karma
Character Generation Table. Characters begin with the
minimum attribute ratings defined by their race/metatype
(including Templates). Before determining the advancement
cost of an attribute, apply the inverse of any racial modifiers.

To determine a racial modifier to an attribute, calculate the
difference between the raceís maximum & 6 (an Elf has 8
maximum Charisma, the racial modifier is +2; a Dwarf has 5
maximum Reaction, the racial modifier is -1). The cost of
increasing an Attribute is New Rating x 5 Karma.

Example: John wishes to increase his Trollís Body from 5 to
6. Because a Troll has +4 Body, the cost is (6-4) x 5, or 10
Karma.

Example: John then decides to increase his Trollís Charisma
from 1 to 2. A Troll has -2 Charisma, so the cost is (2+2) x 5,
or 20 Karma.

Taken from my SR4 karma generation rules. Note this is also supposed to apply to character advancement. It's a little more complex than the straight rating x 5, but also allows for a much smoother system.

The vast majority of SR5 is the same as SR4, so you can use it's values (where they were fair anyway; elves are overpriced, trolls probably under). All that really needs to be done is decide on the relative new value for awakened/resonant qualities, and a few other things with significant mechanical changes.
Falconer
Elfenrir... it more or less mirrors what I've said is the only way to make karmagen work well with attributes for years. Penalized attributes are actually penalized to advance by having them applied after buying them up, strong attributes are much less costly to advance to the same level as a stock human. But a troll pays just as much karma for 'average troll' strength as a human would for 'average human' strength.

You treat the racial attribute modifiers exactly as if they were cyberware enhancements. If you have Agility 1(5) it only costs 10 karma to go to 2(6).

Also just like Muspy said, you need to keep the karma cost the same for advancing attributes after play starts. It's not a one time deal in chargen. The entire point of karmagen is to eliminate one-time deals that distort making a well rounded character out the gates.



The only way to really know how much karma you'll need is to go through priority... max out the equivalent karma value of the build.. then set that as the guidepost. (as many skills/skillgroups/attributes maxed as possible). I'd base this on the human, then trim the metatype package costs accordingly after you have human costs figured.
10+15+20+25+30

Priority A: attributes for example is worth 5(100)+4(70)+4(70)+4(70)+3(45)... == 345 karma. With more karma you can spend from your final karma allotment to raise dumpstats for cheap in the final step.. (EG: str 1->2). So I'd probably say half of 750 or 375karma works fine for attributes just like it did in SR4.


I'd suggest buying the meta first... then buying attributes... Also since metas get more attributes for free outside the cap you might even consider making different caps for different metas or give humans a flat bonus of a little extra karma they can spend on attributes.
IE: human gets 375karma for attributes (half of 750). But an orc has that reduced by half his racial cost... as a rough formula. But that last bit seems a bit too nuts and bolts when simplicity is needed.


One other note: skill costs got modestly cheaper in SR5. There is no longer double cost for the first rank. Which only further cements the max attribute + 1 rank in skill approach to character min/max building.
Isath
Looks good so far. It adresses problems many people had with karma systems - also it is easy and quick to apply.
Elve
It's a nice solution, but it requires fundamental changes within the game and not only within the chargen.
ElFenrir
QUOTE
Also just like Muspy said, you need to keep the karma cost the same for advancing attributes after play starts. It's not a one time deal in chargen. The entire point of karmagen is to eliminate one-time deals that distort making a well rounded character out the gates.


Oh, these attribute costs would not change. It's still New Rating x 5. Now, granted...in the original Karmagen(well, not OLD becks, but the SR4 book), the issue of course was it being prohibitive to buy their bigger stats past, say, a 7. It cost a Troll the same Karma to get his 7 at chargen or later on. Muspel's system(which I liked a lot, btw, in SR4), goes the route of changing the advancement in game itself. I didn't quite want to go that route myself though-I felt that high stats should be paid for, and while I wanted to not punish people for playing races to 'stereotype', nor did I want to push people to that(which, I feel, might be a consequence. I know if I had a choice, I'd take my Cheap Big Attribute in game.)

But, still-I understand the issue. Technically, these costs at the start aren't the same as later on, since the, say, Dwarf who buys a Willpower to 4 at Chargen pays 25, but the Dwarf who takes Willpower 3 at chargen(10 under this system), pays 20 in game to get it to 4, which does lead to 'Metas Work Best when spending lower amounts in their starting stats.'
So the *method* of improving everything? Exactly the same base cost: Atrx5.

Now, Muspel's system could work pretty well for this. I do think that penalizing at the start for negative stats is something I like to do-again, something always felt wrong with me with 1-1=1. In his system, people do pay more for upping a stat, but don't *have* to up the stat...and that, I admit, is where I differ. I think that a stat should be a 1, and that you shouldn't get free negatives.

But I'll be working out some more math today with it, to see if i can tweak the system that meshes both 'no free negatives' with 'does not push metas too hard toward stereotype', which are my two primary goals. I like seeing smashy elves and smart trolls, but I also think someone should be able to play sammie orks and will-powery dwarves should they want too.

QUOTE
The only way to really know how much karma you'll need is to go through priority... max out the equivalent karma value of the build.. then set that as the guidepost. (as many skills/skillgroups/attributes maxed as possible).


As for Attribute limit, I had looked at Priority A and saw first what it costs a Human to get 8 4's. That's 360 Karma. Now, as I took Bonus Karma into account, someone in the chargen could then, if they used their 25 Bonus Karma AND bought 25 Bonus Karma with Qualities, up 2 4's to 5's. Which would be 25 Karma apiece. So with 360 for the 8 4's, and the extra 50 for the 2 5's, that comes to 410. I might lower the 420 allowed to 410, but that's what I was looking around. It feels right to me. I think someone should be able to get good Attributes-if they don't mind sacrificing quite a bit else for it.

I might go and increase Karma allowed for Resources up to 470,000 nuyen, to signify one could buy Priority A and then nab up to 20,000 extra nuyen.

(Also, another reason 720-730 Karma felt 'right' was again-I was taking into affect all the free stuff one can get. Free skills with magic don't exist under this system, for example. After a lot of toying, I really felt that under 700 was lower level, but 750 was too much for a regular game, which is where I started looking between. Again, at the end of the day, starting Karma is something that can be adjusted by table anyway, so that 'starting Karma' is a flat guideline, as it always has been.)

All the other stuff I feel is fine. Really, again, the biggest issue with any karma system is how the metas are handled. Attribute COSTS are just whatever karma they cost. I believe I am onto something that solves the problem(without pushing metas too hard toward stereotypes) now to fit the last piece in to try to equalize costs.
Falconer
Elfenrir:
Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast.... you end up with two options... The elephant in the whole problem is that all the chargen methods force you to min/max/dumpstat to minimize your karma costs later. And karma is the most limited resource in the game generally, so anything which makes you pay extra hurts a lot.

1. change the way the advancement cost is calculated for metatype modifiers.

2. entirely redo karma altogether. Probably the better solution (attributes at 5x are undercosted). If the cost balance between attributes and skills were in balance there would no reason for an 'attribute cap' in chargen. Unfortunately, SR5 went down the path of making attributes even more important since limits are based on attributes and not skill... so there's even more of a need for a cap :(. Really if the karma costs were in line systemically... there'd be no need for a cap on allowable to spend on attributes because mechanically it would be disadvantageous to spend on almost nothing but attributes.

This offers the most flexibility. Even allowing things such as change cost to 8x rank... but then modify that by the meta's stat line... EG: 5->6 troll... pays (8 - 4) == 4x per rank for strength, but would pay 8 - (-2) == 10x rank for charisma. Obviously, this doesn't pass the keep it simple test though.


The entire point of karmagen is to eliminate chargen bonuses. A good example of that in SR5 is the positive & negative qualities. You pay twice as much karma after play starts as in chargen... therefor you're better off loading up on them in chargen then using your first karma awards to raise dump stats at 10 karma each and toss in niche skills for 2 karma to avoid non-proficiency penalties. (first rank in a skill is actually worth 2 dice... eliminate a -1 and +1 skill).

So long as you don't change attribute costs the entire way through the game process... then there is still a very strong bias towards maxing out say troll strength & body in chargen. Why? Because choosing to advance it later is completely cost prohibitive. Do I pay 30 karma now to get that 6(10) strength, or pay 50 later after play starts. (which we all know never happens). Do I pay extra to raise penalized stats in chargen.. or wait until after the game starts to raise them at normal costs.

The bonus or penalty should either always apply or never. There should be no pressure to buy it now in chargen to get a discount as opposed to later in play.


Short of karmagen... the only other I can think of would be to modify priority with a point cost type system.
A == 5 points down to E == 1 point... you get 15points to spend... (more constrained than you think... since picking one of each == 15... but there's a strong bias towards getting priority A's as much as possible.... say human with attributes A, skills A, magic A, but race E, & resource E becomes an option).

Ricochet
In my opinion if you aren't creating a system that builds the exact same character whether you by something at chargen or later during advancement, then it's not worth going with karmagen. The whole point of karmagen is to eliminate min-maxing to get cheaper advancement later.
Isath
It grants more flexibility and is closer to the karma concept of the running game, than the priority system.

While they beefed up the priority based char-gen rather nicely, I still think it is to rigid. Especially when you are playing in a campaign, that has very little karma flow and thus little room to fill in unintended gaps. When it takes forever to raise anything, you want to start with a well rounded character (not meaning without weakness).

On the matter of attributes, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to generally handle metatype bonusses, as a bonus, not as a fixed range. Orks appear to have an aptitude for greater strength, yet it is harder for them, to autually reach their potential, than it is for humans or elves. So the question for me would be, if this should not be revised in the game, as it is - just a thought.
ElFenrir
First-I actually think Attribute x 5 is fine...BUT, keep in mind I'm quite the-how I mention-libratarian GM. In other words, give a basic, and if a specific table thinks it's too low, they can change it on their own. Right now I'm using the book. If it changes in the book(like it did before), then I'd change it. But not every group, for example, gets to play a weekly game that they can get enough Karma to ever see an improvement.

Thinking more about it...hmm. See, naturally with karmagen, as you said-you want to take away the 'chargen bonuses.' Skills are skills. (Now, okay-there IS training time to take into account in game. It's not MUCH, but it's at least something. I mean, I don't expect someone who, say, REALLY wants a Pistols Master to take a Pistols of 5 at chargen and then raise it later. They're going to take a Pistols of 6, and then they'll buy that backup Clubs skill or something later on in game.)

Now with attributes, someone who REALLY wants a Charismatic Troll-they'll do it. If they have the concept in their head for Mr. Charisma the Troll, they'll buy that Charisma, and possibly take Exceptional Attribute for it as well. They'll do it all at chargen most likely.

Now that method above IS quite nice.

(As for meta costs, that is something I waffled on-and still do. See, I will not charge for 'racism.' There's a reason-not every table uses it. If I charge for racism and a table doesn't use it? Then they're paying for nothing. I'd rather lowball a little bit.)


Of course, the 'Give a heavier Meta cost at the start, let people increase as normal' is always a fairly simple option. Make a Troll cost, say, 120-130 Karma. If there is 720-730 or so Karma, that knocks a Troll down to 600 off the bat. But, at that point, if their attributes were simply ALL increased as if they were one(no minuses), let's see. Handsome Bob is a Troll Face. Let's say there is 730 starting Karma. Trolls cost 130, so he has 600 left, and he's allowed to spend up to 410. He doesn't want to spend THAT much.

Body: 6(10 karma)
Agility: 3(25 Karma)
Reaction: 3(25 Karma)
Strength: 5(0 Karma)
Charisma: 5(70 Karma, and he bought Exceptional Attribute-which only raises the max, not the base)
Intuition: 4(45)
Logic: 4(45)
Willpower: 4(45)

Karma: 265 spent, out of his 600 left, which leaves him with 345.

He decides to be an Adept Face(10 karma), and max out Magic(100 Karma). He gets an Edge of 3 for 25 Karma. Now he's left with 210 to use on Resources and Skills. That actually doesn't sound bad, really. He's not going to be doing anything extraordinarily silly with that, and he looks balanced.

Now taking a Tank Troll into account: B 10(100 Karma) A 3(25) R 4(45) S 7(25) C 2(10) I 3(25) L2(10) W4(45). (Will and Reaction are above average, because tanks are good at taking damage, and Willpower helps vs. magic attacks.) This fellow spent 285 on Attributes, and 130 on Race, for a grand total of 415 Karma. He has 315 left for everything else. Again, not too bad; especially when you figure in he'll probably want a lot of defensive ware(which will cost nuyen), and a high Gymnastics and other skills appropriate. (High skills are quite a cost. A 6 is 42 Karma.)

Now, looking at progression in-game, I'll see if there are any 'catches' here.

It will cost Tank the Troll 15 points to raise his Charisma to 3. Just like everyone else. It will cost him 20 points to raise his Strength to 8 if he wanted, since he'd be buying a 4 which is 20 Karma. If he went more tanky still, he could raise his Reaction or Willpower for 25 points in game to 5, and he'd have paid the same amount at the start. Handsome Bob could raise his Willpower to 5 with 25, or he could raise his Strength to 6 in game for 10 Karma(since it's at a base 1.) In this case, their race is expensive at the start but they're paying the same down the line. From my view here, going this route instead, I don't see any real bonuses happening either/or.


Now, inventing a formula here-one thing, I like even 0's and 5's for race costs. So 130, 55, etc. So I whomped together a formula that could help with race costs. Add up the Karma of whatever bonus stats, then count how many stats are capped. Multiply that times 2 and subtract that from the bonus for the race cost. So Trolls get 2 free 5's(140), and 5 capped stats(x2=10), 140-10=130. Elves get 35 points worth, so they could cost 35 and I don't think they'd be too overpriced. Orks get 70 bonus(Body 4 is 45, Str 3 is 25), 2 capped stats(x2=4), round to 65. Dwarves get Body 3(25), Str 3(25), Willpower 2(10), and 1 capped stat. Round down to 55.

I could see 35, 55, 70, 120 as being decent enough costs out of the gate. I've tested an elf with this system already and it works fine, and the trolls there seem fine. I'll have to do a little Dwarf/Ork testing to see if those costs line up(assuming taking out negatives.) So far, I don't see any reason to buy now or later-it'll all be up to the person and the character type they want to play.

(Honestly, another chargen system I always liked was SR3's Build Point system. It's drawback was it of course still ran into the 'different advancement system than creation system', though it was more flexible at chargen than priorities.)
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 18 2013, 05:02 AM) *
Elfenrir:
Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast.... The elephant in the whole problem is that all the chargen methods force you to min/max/dumpstat to minimize your karma costs later. And karma is the most limited resource in the game generally, so anything which makes you pay extra hurts a lot.


No they don't... that is a decision made by the player to game the system.
ElFenrir
So, an update above. Did some changes.

I decided that setup with the Races works well, so I changed it in the original post.

Now-I know you can't do 100% conversions. But, I DID at least convert the archetypes to Karma. I did this for a reason; I wanted to at LEAST get a ballpark together. The only way, IMO, to get a ballpark of a good Karma starting point, is to convert the characters. Yes-I know it's not 1 for 1 for 1. But it is, IMHO, a very good way to at least see 'Am I giving enough Karma to these characters that will enable them to hang properly with other Archetypes if people pick them, as well as not completely overshadow Archetypes if people use them at a table. Also, since the game is tuned roughly with Archetypes in mind, the amount of Karma given should be something around what the Archetypes are built with. (In SR4, I agree that 600-650 was good enough, since 400 BP characters were under what this new Priority system gives, but with the boost in power out of the gate, so there has to be a boost in Karma, to ensure the characters are equipped to deal with the 'median' of challenges that a GM might use.)

Another thing I had to factor in, Karmagen gives no freebies. All that free Edge and Magic and stuff needs to be compensated for, since it needs to be purchased.

As I suspected, 730 is a pretty good pick. They ranged of course-the lowest was under 650, the highest was actually well over *800* Karma.

Again, folks can pick a number that works for their table, but I'm of the opinion that a number of Karma that equals *roughly* what you can make with the Priority system is over 700 and under 730. There are a couple of extremes(the lowest was 626, the highest 838; I believe these are more 'fringe' builds. The vast bulk were between 700-750.)

Also, sticking with the 410-420 absolute max Attributes I think is another good plan-several of the Archetypes have over 375. Some go to nearly 400.

Essentially, after looking them all over-730 feels right. Keep in mind, these numbers were found doing A. Buy from 1, no minuses on stats, and B. Using the following Race costs: Troll 130, Elf 35, Ork 65, Dwarf 55.

For those curious of the numbers(NOTE: There are some rougher numbers here: Assume each build is +/- 10 karma due to things like Bonus Karma on Resources-I counted Resources as the minimum you get in the Prio in calculating karma. So E Resources was 3 Karma, though they may have gotten more with Bonus Karma.) of Archetypes converted to this system, here you go.

Also factor in, due to *not* giving Bonus Karma with the Karmagen system, rolling it into the actual Karma is another reason for the Starting amount.

Bounty Hunter: 697 Karma
Smuggler: 731 Karma
Drone Rigger: 785 Karma
Gunslinger Adept: 706(Note: My rebuild clocked in at 692)
Technomancer: 721
Decker: 838
Tank: 701
Face: 746
Weapons Specialist: 716
Combat Mage: 626
Street Shaman: 704
Occult Investigator: 729-769(depending if Alchemical Preps count as spells)
Covert Ops: 671
Sam: 706
Physad: 745
Sprawl Ganger: 626


I highlighted some of the more 'exceptional' outliers on the low and high end. Only 4 of the 16 clock in under 700 Karma(and only 2 of those are under 650, the other 2 are closer to 700.) 10 are between 700-750. 2 clock in over 760(with a potential 3rd, I actually forgot the part about the Alchemical Preparations vs. Spells, so I'm going to need to re-read that.)

Again, using a very rough guideline, I think I found a good starting amount.
HugeC
I'm trying to get some of my buddies to try SR5, and we always used to play with BeCKS, so I started working on a house rule karmagen system, then found this! Mine (found here) looks pretty similar to what you have. You mention something about having minuses before; was that like what I'm doing with the cost of attributes varying by metatype? Why did you abandon it if so?
ElFenrir
Yours does look quite close to mine! smile.gif

Well, what happened was a couple of things-it ended up having different costs at the start than in game for one instance. The idea of Karmagen is to have costs stay universal throughout.

Essentially, for an example, take the troll. Trolls got a -2 to Charisma under that. Which meant, to even get a 1, they had to buy it to 3: they HAD to spend 25 Karma on their character(keep in mind, the Metatype cost was cheaper when I had them in.), and then they had their 1. Well in-game, that 1 would have cost only 10 Karma to raise to a 2. So it would have sorta...rewarded just dumping the minus stats and buying them cheaper in game.

The other option would have been that they pay they paid 20 Karma to bring it from 1 to 2(as if they were going from 3 to 4.) The reason why I didn't like this was that it encouraged the races to not play 'off-classes' so to speak; it encouraged all trolls to play bruisers and so on, and that's one thing I wanted to get far away from; I didn't want anyone rewarded too much for picking the right 'class', or punished too hard for picking something different.

The method I then came up with above makes people pay a heavier cost for the Meta out of the gate(particularly the big-stat Meta-or metas, when Shifters and such come into play), but everyone raises from their base stat. This way the troll player can say 'cool, my logic of 4 costs the same as a Human's Logic of 4, they're not trying to push me away from my Fixit guy.' Now keep in mind this does make the heftier Meta stats cheaper to increase in game as well, but with heftier costs at the start they don't have as many points in them to begin with-they do not get more points based on race to spend in Attributes(it's going to stay around the 400-ish limit, I haven't decided on what I felt is the best limit yet, between 400 and 410 for the *absolute max* is my opinion so far, since that won't leave much more, especially if someone plays a Meta), and Attributes are expensive to raise in game anyway. Yes-this means the Troll can go from 9 to 10 Body for 30 Karma, but 30 karma is a lot of Karma-IME, unless a table's Karma rewards are huge, this is probably about 6 weeks of play assuming a game every single week and 5 Karma per week for a single point of a stat. Yes, eventually this means the meta will pay for itself after several weeks to a year+(for a troll)-but that IS a lot of time, and IMO, fairly appropriate.

I probably would want to increase Troll price by another 20 karma or so with this method-I feel Elves, Orks, and Dwarves are a bit cosier where they are at the moment but Orks could maybe afford to be 5 Karma more expensive. I'm essentially testing by making several different character concepts, then dumping a bit of Karma on them in sets(assuming a rate of 5 Karma per week of play) to see how bad they get how fast. So far I haven't seen anything that makes me(with my 'GM Hat' on) cringe in terror, nor does it make me start to get all giddy when I put on my 'Optimizer' hat.
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