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FuelDrop
Yeah, I'm still trying to get my head around the new edition. This makes... what? 5 threads I've started to try and figure it out?
All good I figure, as long as I keep learning and people keep getting entertained.

This one is clarification: Does firing two shots from a semi-automatic weapon require the multiple attacks free action? I don't think it does, but I haven't found any confirmation one way or the other yet.
Slide
QUOTE
Semi-Automatic weapons fire a single
round with a Simple Action but cannot combine that
with any other attack Action in the same Action Phase.

p178

You can use a complex action to fire 3 shots in a SA burst. But you can not fire 2 shots as per the rules now. LOGIC!
Tanegar
QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 21 2013, 08:28 AM) *
p178

You can use a complex action to fire 3 shots in a SA burst. But you can not fire 2 shots as per the rules now. LOGIC!

"Semi-automatic burst" is kind of an oxymoron. Does that mean you can take a Complex Action to fire three shots from an SA weapon, or does it have to be burst-capable?
Slide
I would like to amplify my information from earlier. You can use the multi attacks free action to fire 2 seperate Semi auto weapons. You have to split your dice pool for this.

If you want to fire 2 and only 2 bullets, then you could probably talk any GM into using the "not enough bullets" rules for burst using a semi auto burst.
Slide
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 21 2013, 02:46 PM) *
"Semi-automatic burst" is kind of an oxymoron. Does that mean you can take a Complex Action to fire three shots from an SA weapon, or does it have to be burst-capable?

It is using a complex action to fire 3 rounds with a Semi Auto weapon. If you use multi attacks you can target multiple targets with the SA burst. Keep in mind you would have to divide your dicepool among the three. P179.
Flaser
In SR5, there's none of the "hitting 2-3 targets" with the same burst we had in SR4, instead you must make a separate attack for every target.... or use suppressive fire, which means you spray (and pray).

[img]http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n59/Darth_Skorr/Random%20Awesomeness/Demotivators/OrkShooting.jpg[/img]

The only way you can make more than 1 attack in an initiative pass is the Multiple Attacks Free Action which must be combined with a Fire Weapon Action, Throw Weapon Action, Melee Attack Action, Reckless Spellcasting, or Cast Spell Action. You can split your pool a maximum of (Combat Skill / 2) times.

For burst fire, all the rules say is, that weapons capable of semi-auto burst, burst fire, long burst and full auto burst can can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst, or fire two weapons using the same rule. You must split your dice-pool in every case.

Unfortunately the rules are not really clear *how* you do this with burst fire:

"Characters sometimes want to really put on the hurting in a single Action Phase and can choose to attack more than once in a single Action Phase by using the Multiple Attacks Free Action. This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee). The attackerís dice pool is calculated with all modifiers (Wound, Environmental, Situational, and the full recoil of all attacks if itís a ranged attack) and then split as evenly as possible between all attacks, and each attack is handled separately. (Keep in mind as the dice pool gets smaller the chances of a glitch rise.) Edge spent on this test adds into the pool before it is divided. The total number of attacks you can make in a single Action Phase is limited to one-half the attackerís Combat Skill."

The rule's description doesn't make it clear whether you can attack multiple times with a single firearm, as it only refers to using a melee weapon or two firearms. If we go by the burst fire rules though, then you obviously can. This section could've been cleared up a bit more.

What's not clear is what modifiers your target must deal with from burst fire.

If you ask me, you should also split the burst fire modifier and round down ...or in plain English, divide the number of bullets you're throwing down-range between your attacks, the target(s) must deal with a defense modifier of that -1.

Using my interpretation, you could hit 2 targets with a semi-auto burst, apply modifiers to your pool, then split and roll attack separately. Each target would get -1 to their defense... or if you only used 2 bullets, there'd be no modifier to their defense.

PS.: One thing that occurred to me, was that there's no rule stating you can't attack a single target multiple times. Just split your dicepool, and BAM! you've 2x-3x your damage that IP... albeit your chance of hitting has also been 1/2-1/3-ed.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Slide @ Jul 21 2013, 09:28 AM) *
You can use a complex action to fire 3 shots in a SA burst. But you can not fire 2 shots as per the rules now. LOGIC!

This was implemented at the request of Ares and other weapon suppliers to ensure you use 50% more ammo. biggrin.gif
Sendaz
DP
Sunshine
I'd handle it as a multiple attack free action with a complex action beeing used for the semi automatic burst. I'd allow the use of only two bullets for no defense modifier as burst rules only state the maximum amount of bullets fired not how many have to be fired.
As Flaser pointed out this means you coud plausibly attack up to three targets (not more for a lack of bullets but with a willig gm you could start to shoot through people wink.gif ) or the same target up to three times albeit at a horribly reduced dice pool per shot. For the later option your character needs a Pistols Skill Rationg of 5 at least (Multiple Attacks Targets = Combat Skill Rating/3; rounding up?).

love,
Sunshine
Flaser
QUOTE (Sunshine @ Jul 21 2013, 06:14 PM) *
I'd handle it as a multiple attack free action with a complex action beeing used for the semi automatic burst. I'd allow the use of only two bullets for no defense modifier as burst rules only state the maximum amount of bullets fired not how many have to be fired.
As Flaser pointed out this means you coud plausibly attack up to three targets (not more for a lack of bullets but with a willig gm you could start to shoot through people wink.gif ) or the same target up to three times albeit at a horribly reduced dice pool per shot. For the later option your character needs a Pistols Skill Rationg of 5 at least (Multiple Attacks Targets = Combat Skill Rating/3; rounding up?).

love,
Sunshine


EDIT: As Falconer pointed out, the rule as written is pretty unambigious, one can make skill/2 number of attacks an IP.

Skill 01 --> Skill/2 = 1 (rounding up) --> maximum 1 attacks, 0 extra attacks
Skill 02 --> Skill/2 = 1 (no rounding) --> maximum 1 attacks, 0 extra attacks
Skill 03 --> Skill/2 = 2 (rounding up) --> maximum 2 attacks, 1 extra attacks
Skill 04 --> Skill/2 = 2 (no rounding) --> maximum 2 attacks, 1 extra attacks
Skill 05 --> Skill/2 = 3 (rounding up) --> maximum 3 attacks, 2 extra attacks
Skill 06 --> Skill/2 = 3 (no rounding) --> maximum 3 attacks, 2 extra attacks
Skill 07 --> Skill/2 = 4 (rounding up) --> maximum 4 attacks, 3 extra attacks
Skill 08 --> Skill/2 = 4 (no rounding) --> maximum 4 attacks, 3 extra attacks
Skill 09 --> Skill/2 = 5 (rounding up) --> maximum 5 attacks, 4 extra attacks
Skill 10 --> Skill/2 = 5 (no rounding) --> maximum 5 attacks, 4 extra attacks
Skill 11 --> Skill/2 = 6 (rounding up) --> maximum 6 attacks, 5 extra attacks
Skill 12 --> Skill/2 = 6 (no rounding) --> maximum 6 attacks, 5 extra attacks
Skill 13 --> Skill/2 = 7 (rounding up) --> maximum 7 attacks, 6 extra attacks

Even with a maxed out (~25 dice) pool, I doubt anyone would attack more than 4-5 targets, albeit I really hope GMs with such shenanigans have a dicebot on hand (or a mallet to strike the munchkins!)
Falconer
Here's an even worse problem... after the freelancers eliminated the ability to attack more than once in a round. Did they completely flub the 'multiattack' free action allowing the same target to be attacked twice... or is it limited to two different targets.

If so, they put in a huge backdoor into the system for getting around the yes damage was increased and so because you can't attack the same target with 2 simple actions... no i'll just do it instead with a free action and another one.


Also Flaser... I think the rules round down... in SR4 they did. (attribute max, drain, etc. etc. etc. they all rounded down, not in the players favor whether that was up or down). So I think your chart may be wrong with the round up assumptions. Someone with only 1-3 dice then couldn't split the attack... which makes sense since they only have 3 ranks in the skill out of 12.
Flaser
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2013, 02:02 AM) *
Here's an even worse problem... after the freelancers eliminated the ability to attack more than once in a round. Did they completely flub the 'multiattack' free action allowing the same target to be attacked twice... or is it limited to two different targets.

If so, they put in a huge backdoor into the system for getting around the yes damage was increased and so because you can't attack the same target with 2 simple actions... no i'll just do it instead with a free action and another one.


Also Flaser... I think the rules round down... in SR4 they did. (attribute max, drain, etc. etc. etc. they all rounded down, not in the players favor whether that was up or down). So I think your chart may be wrong with the round up assumptions. Someone with only 1-3 dice then couldn't split the attack... which makes sense since they only have 3 ranks in the skill out of 12.


Not exactly... now you'll *halve* your dicepool if you do that, which is a drastic trade-off... and it gets worse the more times you attack to the point where you'll do less or no damage.
As for your comment, the SR5 book specifically says that you should round up, unless otherwise told to do so... also, the same thing was already present in SR4, that's how melee dmg. and condition monitors worked.
Flaser
DP.
FuelDrop
Flaser, I think you have an escaped clone running around somewhere.
Falconer
Lacking the book... another diction question... is the exact wording halve for skill/2.

Or is it split into a maximum number of pools of skill/2.


Thanks for the clarification.
Flaser
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2013, 02:16 AM) *
Lacking the book... another diction question... is the exact wording halve for skill/2.

Or is it split into a maximum number of pools of skill/2.


Thanks for the clarification.


Exact wording is: "split as evenly as possible between all attacks", then "The total number of attacks you can make in a single Action Phase is limited to one-half the attacker’s Combat Skill."
Falconer
Okay then by that wording... your chart is incorrect... As your total number of attacks for a skill of 1 or 2 is '1'.

Thanks for the update.



Though this raises another possible problem... if mixing attack types... (buccanneer style... sword & pistol)... does it specify to use the smaller dice pool for the split. (SR4 was explicit about this... if mixing weapons use the lower weapon for everything).
Flaser
QUOTE (Falconer @ Jul 22 2013, 04:56 AM) *
Okay then by that wording... your chart is incorrect... As your total number of attacks for a skill of 1 or 2 is '1'.

Thanks for the update.

Though this raises another possible problem... if mixing attack types... (buccanneer style... sword & pistol)... does it specify to use the smaller dice pool for the split. (SR4 was explicit about this... if mixing weapons use the lower weapon for everything).


Indeed you're right... gonna go back and re-do the thing.
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