Ok, so I'm going to start by saying that mechanically, lethal ammunition is far more effective than non-lethal ammunition. Going non-lethal is a choice that will cost you money (Gel is less effective at taking a target down than regular ammunition, but is more expensive) and make you less effective in combat, either by costing you damage or increasing enemy armour. Going non-lethal also potentially leaves witnesses, which is generally a bad thing.

However, less lethal force tends to lend credence to your words when you say "nothing personal", and if you have a rep for not leaving a trail of bodies then the cops are less likely to put out a city-wide manhunt for you. Also, it reduces the risk of you becoming a cop killer... which is generally not healthy.

So, which is your character's favored method?

Don't be silly, now. That's what SnS is for.

Hence the 5th edition tag. Because SnS no longer outclasses every type of ammunition in both damage and armour penetration.

Now it just beats them at armour penetration!

Technically, it doesn't even outclass APDS on that most of the time.

My prediction is that in a few months, we'll all be talking about how awesome the init penalty is. But that's just me.

Fair call, as the penalties are pretty good. Interestingly, if you're using a gun with any armour penetration at all then gel does better damage than S&S.

It really depends on the character, to be honest.

A couple guys I'm writing up right now will kill if lethal forced if used against them, if they're hired to whack someone, or if lethal force is used against against their friends, or of it's a case of 'if we don't neutralize this target now, they're going to be a problem later'.(Oh yeah, hunting down someone who kills a friend or family member of theirs is considered 'lethal force against friends or family.' Now, I should say-*credible* lethal threat. If a shaky rent a cop shoots their light pistol at one(who have solid armor and defenses, to the point where a 2 skill 3 stat rentacop likely won't even come close to lethal damage), he'd probably be more forgiving and just knock his arse out in an 'are you kidding' kind of way.

I have other characters who refuse to kill unless it's an absolutely necessary circumstance(and even then there is probably a non lethal way to do it) or it's things like Wendigo or other 'twisted' souls. Yet other characters are a bit worse in their regard, though I haven't *quite* played a complete and utter psycho yet. (Ehm...okay, no, I have, Samael, my giant Surged elf with overclocked and insane Kid Stealth legs, but he was more of a one-shot character that became a fiction character. He's pretty insane.)

That one is really the reason why most of the characters in my games go with gel rounds (and the most standard of sec guards). First is the better Takedown. We ran a combat test for sr5 last week and most of the time if damage was taken (all human chars) it was 1 or 2 points below the physical limit which ment no knockdown. So shots may would have done a little less damage maybe (plus one soak die) but would have dropped most opposition at the first true hit (not just grazing ones). Leading to a Stand Up simple action with a test and or breaking line of sight for counterattacking and helping the melee guys to rush in and finish the job on the prone guys.

I like that it has become more of a style choice which kind of ammo you use for what job you are trying to accomplish. Also with the rules for (e) Weapons doing damage to electronics while gel rounds "just" pop against the casing it is also a safety issue in residental security ops to use gel.

love and bullets,
Sunshine

My Iconic Character, Nexus (Cyberlogician) preferred non-lethal methods over any other. Him being an Undercover Knight Errant Intelligence specialist (tasked with infiltrating the shadows and compiling dossiers on any and all shadow acticity in Hong Kong) was my primary motivation for that policy, as he did not want to be killing people unecessarily. Would have hated being prosecuted for the potential trail of bodies in his wake. Never was a big fan of SnS (for no particular reason, I guess) for this particular character, so he preferred to use capsule rounds as his primary loadout (usually filled with Narcojet). Even with this as his go to choice, he still ended up killing targets (more than he would have liked) with it. Was quite sad.

Personally, I'm a big fan of toxins for nonlethal takedowns. Their delivery vectors tend to be quiet and versatile, with spiking food/drink to flying drone mounted parashield rifle all possible.

My main build carries 2 Defiance Ex Shockers on hidden arm slides for close range less-than-lethal takedowns along with flashbang,tear gass and pepper punch gas grenades(first 2 only on runs pepper punch always), but if those aren't enough then rest of her arsenal is lethal.

Gel rounds look pretty good - assume a standard mook has a Physical Limit of 4 or 5, the gel rounds reduce it by 2 which probably puts it below the net hits for a knockdown. It remains to be seen if knockdown is more useful than SnS's initiative reduction, but I would think not. Plus, SnS is a drone destroyer on top of its other benefits, so it seems like a smarter overall choice.

I'll use lethal ammo in a fair fight, or if I think he's gonna start a fair fight... or if he bothers me... or if there's a woman... or if I'm gettin' paid... especially if I'm gettin' paid!

In SR4A I went with SnS whenever I could, for all the usual reasons we love (to hate) it; the character I spend the most time with does semi-legitimate work every so often (for government agencies and stuff), so she tries to keep her record relatively clean of murder. Failing that, tasers or gel rounds. I haven't played SR5 yet, so I'm not sure if that'll continue or not.

But eatin' people... When's that get fun?

Said no ghoul, ever.

True, but when you are disposing of said Ghoul, you really have to wonder...

A few months?

For my characters it depends on their personalities, but from a pure gamist approach non lethal is always better. It isn't much less effective than lethal (sometimes even more effective than lethal), it has pretty much the same outcome (the time it takes for the opponent to regain consciousness, everyone will be long gone, and memories can be wiped easily) and for many GM it is better on the long term. And if you really need to kill, you can easily kill the knocked-out enemy.

I would have liked a risk for unconscious enemies to regain consciousness in a few minutes (or even seconds), which would make non-lethal a less optimal choice.

I would also like GM to remember that Shadowrun takes place in a world where street gangs regularly kill innocent SINners even in "good" neighborhoods. So while killing can sometimes make things more complicated, it shouldn't force the PC to go in hiding for a year every time they do it.

SnS in the Predator, lethal in the Alpha, Flashbangs in the Alphas launcher. if im just crusin the town I don't usually carry the Alpha, but if im on a run you damn well better belive im carrying some lethal ordinance. Those drones are easier to take down with some APDS, but the wageslaves dont deserve to get shot, unless they are shooting hardball all bets are off if they got the hardball.

I'm with Jayne here.. I mean Freya.

I didn't play much after the 4th edition of SnS madness, but we usually brought along a narcojet pistol on our runs. Take the non-lethal action as long as possible then when the fecal matter inevitably hit the fan we holstered the dart guns and dragged out the lethal (and usually explosive) ordinane.

Stick n Shock, in my opinion, should be relegated to things like grenade launchers a la Splinter Cell. They'd be awesome in that role.

Stick and Shock pretty much exist allready for shotguns, so that would be down grade from modern day.
Nad they also have taser claymore mines, those would be pretty cool in SR or maybe a grenade that shoots wires in all directions and then delivers an amped up taser shock through them all

For some reason, I just thought of that ghoul being eaten by another ghoul and calling it "re-gifting". (Don't ask, I'm running on two hours of sleep and I don't have an answer.)

Back on the subject of SnS, another major reason that I carried it in 4th ed was actually a character quirk more than anything. Aside from all the advantages that the ammo itself has, the character was slightly OCD about not carrying a ton of gear around if she could help it, so there was a lot of "ooo, it's like a taser, but I don't need a second gun!". (Said character is a mage, so she doesn't actually use the gun that much anyway. It just meant one less weapon for her to lug around while not-using it.)

"What goes around, comes around." - Ancient Igor proverb

Barren's 'Ghoul'ash? what's in it?

Ghoul.

That's disgusting...... so what does it taste like?

It varies from person to person.

My characters almost always carry at least two clips on them at all times - Gel/SnS or ExEx/APDS (depending on edition and what ammo the character can get his hands on). The gel is what's loaded by default, and I'll usually have two clips of the lethal ammo for reserve. Because if I can't knock it out with 15 rounds of gel or SnS, then it's something that probably needs to die.

I'm a big fan of not killing large groups of people in a run. I tend to actually use my intimidate skill with a mix of fire power and flanking to try to get people to surrender. Ofcourse this means they have to belive im a credible threat....

Flash bang + tear gas + swat uniform = credible threat outside of a war zone.
Not that the hostiles are in any condition to fight back after that lot.

true. I recall one time I messed up on my intimidate the first round. A dude dove out from behind his desk for the gun cabinet. I knee capped him with EX-EX rounds in burst. After that everyone else complied.

I actually had a pacifist combat medic written that way (just the 5-point version). Never did get around to playing her, but lots of narcoject and aimed shots for limbs were planned. When the GM asked me how I planned to get away with playing a pacifist in Shadowrun, and since I've already broken out the quotes in this thread:

"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?"
"Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

What is with all the kneecap hate?

Depending on the mechanics of the wound, kneecapping someone can give results ranging from "lingering pain and stiffness" to "crippled for life" or even "leg blown off below the knee". (It doesn't help that a lot of people that do it with a power drill instead of a gun. Yeah, the thing you drill holes in walls with.) Obviously the "crippled for life" thing isn't as big a deal in Shadowrun when you can just get a cyberleg and be done with it, but having some psycho wiling to cripple you one limb at a time works well for intimidation factor, and you're not TECHNICALLY killing anyone.

umm... yeah that guy i kneecapped with Ex-EX in a burst.... I'm pretty sure he bled out...

Maybe it's changed for 5th (waiting for print version), but when absolutely everything, including that unobtrusive coffeemaker in the break room, is not only meshed into the matrix, but also has a camera recording 24/7... killing people to leave no witnesses behind is kinda missing the forest for the trees.

Most of my professional runners tend to lean towards non-lethal, but try to make it non-economical to pursue them. Usually this means destroy as many pursuing drones and vehicles as possible, but leaving everyone alive. Killing people means grieving family and friends, some of which will want revenge, but if the worst injury is a bruised ego, most won't come in guns blazing to the barrens (usual hiding spot to wait until any heat to blow over). Further, if you make it clear to the company that they will spend millions to bring down the runners to retrieve whatever was stolen, you introduce a monetary motive for them to leave you alone.

However this has resulted in middle managers getting fired for putting their ego ahead of the bottom line... and thus swearing an eternal revenge upon those runners, but you can't please everyone.

"It was... some scary people... they had armor... and guns... I think a couple were orcs? They never talked. Just rushed in and shot everybody. Lucky they used those taser bullet things... What do you mean, what did they look like? They all had masks on and a ton of body armor. I couldn't even tell if they were men or women!" Yeah, I'm a lot more concerned about the level of forensics experts they'll call in for a spree-killing than I am about some desk monkey at a corp describing me to some desk monkey at the Star.

We all used to be runners like you, but then we took an injection arrow to the knee.

CSI Seattle

Grissom got the Leonization so guess who is back?

I'm actually kind of shocked this reference didn't come up sooner.

Yeah, well most people realize that provoking me to hunt down everyone on the site and ritualistically pierce their knees with a thousand arrows while chanting praises to the blood god isn't a smart idea.
Nothing personal. I do that every time someone makes that reference.

That reminds me, I'm still working through every youtube subscriber alphabetically. Do you have any idea how many Aarons there are in the world?

Go get Firefly.

Now.

Already got it. Spotted the quote when I first saw it.
Still not sure why people hate kneecaps so much.

Vlad Taltos also has a saying 'When all you have is a stick, everything looks like a kneecap'

So your perceptions are a bit shaped by what you have and what you are doing.

So ponder that one.

-Excerpt from 'The Zen of Shadowrunning' Paladin Reborn Publishing ©2063

On the flipside, cameras and recording equipment are everywhere (often implanted in people's eyes) so sometimes leaving witnesses behind isn't a great strategy.

However, if you are a shadowrunner who doesn't wear a mask on jobs you're kind of asking for it.

I think to that, it dates back to one famous mob, or another, that threatened (and executed) people's kneecaps.

Cursory research reveals that it's a favored tactic of the IRA and Dynastic China.

You know, I've got 170 hours in Skyrim, and I've never actually heard that line in-game. Not once. I had no idea what people were going about for the longest time.