Everyone loves to make things go boom. Fact of shadowrun.
The cheapest and most available explosive in the core book is commercial explosives, a rating 5 packet of boom that'll set you back 100 nuyen per kilogram. considering how effective explosives are against barriers, that's effective against everything up to concrete (heavy structural materials) in the hands of anyone with even basic training.
However, the other use for things that go boom is to set traps, and that is where the explosives rules fails.
Assuming 1 hit, how many kilograms of commercial explosives do you think you'd need to get the equivalent boom to an explosive grenade?
Somewhere between 8 and 9 kilograms.
Ok, that's rather a lot. So how about just buy some better boomdex than the cruddy commercial stuff? Well, the rating 15 explosive (+1 damage for one hit on the demolitions check) is going to set you back about 1,500 nuyen a pop to the grenade's 100 and good luck getting it during character generation.
This wouldn't be so bad (Grenades gib, bombs breach [I love alliteration]) except that since there's no listing for grenades on the barrier table, and strapping a grenade to a barrier probably qualifies as putting an explosive next to it, grenades outclass every explosive in the game in cost/benefit ratio by a truly staggering margin, are far easier to get your hands on, AND come with a built-in wireless detonator (which would set you back an extra 75 nuyen with conventional explosives).
However, let us assume for a moment that grenades do not get the X2 damage rule for explosives and merely use their own damage value. Let us also assume that you cannot increase damage from grenades use for demolitions with the demolitions skill. They are still equivalent to a rating 8 explosive with detonator for a fraction of the price AND can be used effectively as, you know, grenades!
Is it just me, or does the explosives section need a little bit of a rehash to avoid being completely redundant?
Full Version: Commercial explosives are lacking a little bit of oomph
KaBoomRun™
With each hit adding to the effective rating (thus doubling vs barriers) that means that a single block of commercial explosive for 100 nuyen with 3 hits behind it is as effective versus the barrier as an HE grenade.
The thing you missed is that an HE grenade has an AP of -2, while an explosive attached to a target halves the armor.
So let's say you've got 100 nuyen worth of commercial explosive (rating 5) and you get a pretty good demolitions guy who gets you 5 hits to set the charge. So we're up to 10 damage, which then doubles to 20, at AP -half.
This turns your concrete wall (12 structure, 20 armor) into 22 dice to resist. Note here that a grenade with 16P AP-2 won't actually dent this, since the modified armor of 18 stops the 16 damage dead.
So the 22 dice gets you let's say 8 hits, which transfers 12 damage to the wall. This blows a 1 meter hole in the wall, while the grenade bounced off.
Up that to a reinforced wall (14 structure, 24 armor), and your small commercial explosive probably deals some damage but doesn't quite break through the wall, so maybe you need to add in some more explosive. So you get yourself 4 kilos (400 nuyen), to double the effectiveness.
The same guy sets the charge, giving (5+5)x2 -- that's how that multiplies for rating, hits, and quantity -- for effectively 20 damage, which is doubled to 40 damage versus a barrier, at AP -half.
So the reinforced wall gets 26 dice to resist 40 damage, probably taking about 30 damage in the process, and earning itself a 2-meter hole.
The thing you missed is that an HE grenade has an AP of -2, while an explosive attached to a target halves the armor.
So let's say you've got 100 nuyen worth of commercial explosive (rating 5) and you get a pretty good demolitions guy who gets you 5 hits to set the charge. So we're up to 10 damage, which then doubles to 20, at AP -half.
This turns your concrete wall (12 structure, 20 armor) into 22 dice to resist. Note here that a grenade with 16P AP-2 won't actually dent this, since the modified armor of 18 stops the 16 damage dead.
So the 22 dice gets you let's say 8 hits, which transfers 12 damage to the wall. This blows a 1 meter hole in the wall, while the grenade bounced off.
Up that to a reinforced wall (14 structure, 24 armor), and your small commercial explosive probably deals some damage but doesn't quite break through the wall, so maybe you need to add in some more explosive. So you get yourself 4 kilos (400 nuyen), to double the effectiveness.
The same guy sets the charge, giving (5+5)x2 -- that's how that multiplies for rating, hits, and quantity -- for effectively 20 damage, which is doubled to 40 damage versus a barrier, at AP -half.
So the reinforced wall gets 26 dice to resist 40 damage, probably taking about 30 damage in the process, and earning itself a 2-meter hole.
Yeah, missed the half armour.
Explosives are far better with that.
Explosives are far better with that.
QUOTE (Epicedion @ Jul 27 2013, 02:01 AM) 
With each hit adding to the effective rating (thus doubling vs barriers) that means that a single block of commercial explosive for 100 nuyen with 3 hits behind it is as effective versus the barrier as an HE grenade.
The thing you missed is that an HE grenade has an AP of -2, while an explosive attached to a target halves the armor.
So let's say you've got 100 nuyen worth of commercial explosive (rating 5) and you get a pretty good demolitions guy who gets you 5 hits to set the charge. So we're up to 10 damage, which then doubles to 20, at AP -half.
This turns your concrete wall (12 structure, 20 armor) into 22 dice to resist. Note here that a grenade with 16P AP-2 won't actually dent this, since the modified armor of 18 stops the 16 damage dead.
So the 22 dice gets you let's say 8 hits, which transfers 12 damage to the wall. This blows a 1 meter hole in the wall, while the grenade bounced off.
Up that to a reinforced wall (14 structure, 24 armor), and your small commercial explosive probably deals some damage but doesn't quite break through the wall, so maybe you need to add in some more explosive. So you get yourself 4 kilos (400 nuyen), to double the effectiveness.
The same guy sets the charge, giving (5+5)x2 -- that's how that multiplies for rating, hits, and quantity -- for effectively 20 damage, which is doubled to 40 damage versus a barrier, at AP -half.
So the reinforced wall gets 26 dice to resist 40 damage, probably taking about 30 damage in the process, and earning itself a 2-meter hole.
The thing you missed is that an HE grenade has an AP of -2, while an explosive attached to a target halves the armor.
So let's say you've got 100 nuyen worth of commercial explosive (rating 5) and you get a pretty good demolitions guy who gets you 5 hits to set the charge. So we're up to 10 damage, which then doubles to 20, at AP -half.
This turns your concrete wall (12 structure, 20 armor) into 22 dice to resist. Note here that a grenade with 16P AP-2 won't actually dent this, since the modified armor of 18 stops the 16 damage dead.
So the 22 dice gets you let's say 8 hits, which transfers 12 damage to the wall. This blows a 1 meter hole in the wall, while the grenade bounced off.
Up that to a reinforced wall (14 structure, 24 armor), and your small commercial explosive probably deals some damage but doesn't quite break through the wall, so maybe you need to add in some more explosive. So you get yourself 4 kilos (400 nuyen), to double the effectiveness.
The same guy sets the charge, giving (5+5)x2 -- that's how that multiplies for rating, hits, and quantity -- for effectively 20 damage, which is doubled to 40 damage versus a barrier, at AP -half.
So the reinforced wall gets 26 dice to resist 40 damage, probably taking about 30 damage in the process, and earning itself a 2-meter hole.
*Copies this and prints it out and pastes it in his BBB*
Excellent, coherent concise explanation! Couldn't have been better with a power point presentation or a laser pointer.
Vlad
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.