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MaxMahem
Limits are a fine idea for Shadowrun, I like the concept of them, and I think they are a great mechanic to introduce. However, in many cases the actual mechanic is somewhat lacking in my opinion.

Inherit Limits
Nearly every test is affected by the base inherit limits, i.e. your Physical, Mental, and Social limits. Several problems are immediately obvious to me.

* The formula for calculating these limits is cumbersome, and not easy to calculate on the fly. One stat times two plus two other stats all divided by four. Itís not a convenient calculation to do in your head if your stats change for some reason. Itís not an easy formula to remember either.
* There doesnít appear to be any rhyme or reason to the calculation. Why does your physical limit use twice your strength? Why is agility (surely a prime factor in oneís physical abilities) not included? Why is willpower included twice? A rational formula is easier to remember because you can recall the rationalization behind it, but these are just a mess.
* Attribute based limits promote the imbalance of attributes compared to skills. This was something that was already a problem in 4th edition (attributes were much more valuable than skills). And while the 5th edition character generation system no longer makes the discrepancy as obvious, I believe the problem still exists. Having limits based on your attributes just exacerbates this problems, as not only are ranks in your attributes increasing your dice pool for all skills linked to that attribute, itís also increase your limit, while ranks in skills do not.
* More often than not the limits are so high they donít end up limiting anything. Most of the prebuilt characters have limits of 3-5 in their non-specialty areas. Even a limit of 3 requires a dice pool of 12 to hit on average, which is a quite respectable pool for an area that is not the characters specialty. And if they do get lucky and hit it big on a test? They can spend a point of edge to keep the roll. Now I think this is a fine rule, but if Limits arenít going to come into play that often, why have them? In fact in general I think they are to high to really be relevant.
* I find it odd that inherent limits explicitly do not apply to attribute only tests (including initiative, defenses tests, lifting tests, composure tests, ect). I donít see the reason for this, as if limits are supposed to represent a limit to a characterís inherent ability, then surely they should also apply in these situations. They also donít apply to handful of other skill+attribute tests. Exceptions to a rule are problematic and hard to remember, the more universal the rules the better.
* In makes a fun archetype concept, Ďthe aged masterí less playable. Isnít the idea of an old Yoda/Mr. Miyagi type character who is lacking in physical attributes but makes up for it in his experience and skill? Such a character is limited because his vast skill it would be limited by his inherent limits.

Now thats not to say there isnít anything to like about the inherent limits, for one I like that the presence of essence in the social limit calculation makes something that was always supposed to be a factor in the fluff (the dehumanizing facet of cyberwear) represented in the rules. It is also nice that you just have 3 limits to recall instead of a plethora (though the presence of gear limits kind of invalidates this to an extent).

Mr. Miyagi vs Bubba the Elf
Consider the following scenario. Mr. Miyagi, a wise aged master squares off against Bubba the elf. Mr. Miyagi is older, and has so-so physical stats. But he is highly skilled and has 8 ranks in his physical skill.

Mr. Miyagi
STR 2 BDY 1 AGI 2 REA 1 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 8 Ė Physical Limit 2

Bubba the Elf
STR 4 BDY 3 AGI 8 REA 4 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 2 Ė Physical Limit 4
Bubba the elf has only rudimentary knowledge of the skill in question, but is in the prime of his life and has gotten himself jacked up with some mechanical augmentation.

Mr. Miyagiís and Bubba the Elfís dice pools are equal, but Bubba the Elf will quickly dominate any contest because Mr. Miyagiís greater skill is limited by his Physical Attributes, despite their dice pools being the same. It also brings to bear the question of why agility is not in the physical limit equation despite being the most commonly used linked attribute.

If anything the limits should work the other way around in my opinion. Mr. Miyagi should be able to beat Bubba the elf. Because despite his physical superiority his lack of skill limits the effective application of his skill. The attribute based limits system works exactly against this sort of flavorful cinematic outcome for no good reason.

I guess put more succinctly the question at hand is, in a contest between two characters of equal dice pool, should the character with more attribute or more skill be favored? In my opinion the more skilled character triumphing is better system all around. I think a skilled character is more realistic/simulationist, and my personal experience fencing those more skilled, if less physically able certainly bears this out. And I think its better from a gameplay point of view as I think skills are classically undervalued with respect to attributes in shadowrun.

Gear Limits
The other major source of limits in shadowrun are those based on a character gear, or in the case of some magic spell, force. At first glance I donít have any strong opinions on these rules either way. They are closely tied to the new damage scaling used in SR5, but I havenít had a chance to analyse and playtest this extensively yet. Expect more after my group and I have had more chance to playtest them.

Alternative Rule Ė Skill Based Limits
On the whole I think the system could be improved, and I donít think its quite fair to criticise a system without giving my example on how it could be done better. So instead of attribute based limits I give you skill limits. Instead of having 3 inherent limits based on your stats, each skill has a limit, based on the rank of the skill. I considered a couple different ways of scaling them, Limit = Skill, Limit = Skill + x, Limit = Skill * 1.5, Limit = Skill * 2

After some consideration, I decided Limit = Skill is possibly the best system. While I like the scaling of Limit = Skill * 1.5 a little better, I decided the additional complications were not worth it. Consider that under the new rules skills are capped at 12 instead (at which point the limit is largely irrelevant under either system). And many test are going to have a lower limit imposed by gear anyways. Of course these being house rules feel free to use whatever you want.

Lets go over some proís and conís of this system.

Pro
* Increases the value of skills with respect to attributes.
* Allows a highly skilled character to beat an unskilled one, all else being equal.
* Formula is universal, easy to remember, and easy to calculate.
* Formula makes logical sense.
* Limit is unlikely to change during a session, skill rating generally only change during downtime.

Con
* Need to calculate and keep track of a separate limit for each skill.
* Does not allow for essence to be a factor in social skill tests.
* Does not handle other places limits are used.

Other Limit Uses

Inherent limits are also used in a handful of other places, including knockback, subduing, and the Fichetti Pain Inducer. I actually like these sets of rules, but without the inherent limits we will have to find substitutes for them. I think in most places they can be replaced with a limit based on an appropriate attribute. Attributes scale rather similarly to limits ranging in general from 2-9 in most characters. In fact in most instances adding one or two to a stat used in calculation of the inherent limit will result in a limit the same or close to the physical limit (within a point in most caes). Lets go over each instance in turn:

Knockdown
Instead of using a characterís physical limit as a threshold to determine if a character is knocked down, we could use the characters Body + 2. For most characters this will result in a threshold very close to the old physical limit. A handful of characters could end up with very high limits and thus be very difficult to knockdown without killing them (Trolls primarily). This might not be a bad thing. They can still be knockeddown in melee combat however.

Subduing
Instead of using a characterís physical limit as a threshold to determine if a character is subdued, we could use the characters Strength + 2. For most characters this will result in a threshold very close to the old physical limit. A handful of characters with very high strength could end up with very high limits and thus be nearly impossible to subdue. While this is potentially a problem, it should be pointed out that the existing physical limits for these characters are likely to also be relatively high (since strength is factored twice in the physical limit calculation) and they are already nearly impossible to subdue.

In fact without the use of edge it is already impossible for a character to subdue his clone as his limit on the number of hits he can get on the unarmed combat test is the limited by the same number he needs to exceed to defeat his clone. This indicates to me these rules need to be rethought someone potentially, but as it stands using Strength + 2 as a limit is an acceptable substitute.

Fichetti Pain Inducer
The Fichetti Pain Inducer is a curious piece of gear which uses a characterís mental limit to determined if the character has been disabled or not. Instead Willpower + 2 can be used. Again this will result in a limit that is relatively similar to the mental limit for most characters.

Bonuses to Limits
In a number of places in the rules various circumstances can add a bonus to an inherent limit. These situations are quite easy to handle as instead they can add the same bonus to the skill limit on the applicable test.

This is all basically transcribed from my blog, linked below, but I thought I would get better discussion on it here.
WorkOver
QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Aug 3 2013, 06:41 PM) *
Limits are a fine idea for Shadowrun, I like the concept of them, and I think they are a great mechanic to introduce. However, in many cases the actual mechanic is somewhat lacking in my opinion.

Inherit Limits
Nearly every test is affected by the base inherit limits, i.e. your Physical, Mental, and Social limits. Several problems are immediately obvious to me.

* The formula for calculating these limits is cumbersome, and not easy to calculate on the fly. One stat times two plus two other stats all divided by four. Itís not a convenient calculation to do in your head if your stats change for some reason. Itís not an easy formula to remember either.
* There doesnít appear to be any rhyme or reason to the calculation. Why does your physical limit use twice your strength? Why is agility (surely a prime factor in oneís physical abilities) not included? Why is willpower included twice? A rational formula is easier to remember because you can recall the rationalization behind it, but these are just a mess.
* Attribute based limits promote the imbalance of attributes compared to skills. This was something that was already a problem in 4th edition (attributes were much more valuable than skills). And while the 5th edition character generation system no longer makes the discrepancy as obvious, I believe the problem still exists. Having limits based on your attributes just exacerbates this problems, as not only are ranks in your attributes increasing your dice pool for all skills linked to that attribute, itís also increase your limit, while ranks in skills do not.
* More often than not the limits are so high they donít end up limiting anything. Most of the prebuilt characters have limits of 3-5 in their non-specialty areas. Even a limit of 3 requires a dice pool of 12 to hit on average, which is a quite respectable pool for an area that is not the characters specialty. And if they do get lucky and hit it big on a test? They can spend a point of edge to keep the roll. Now I think this is a fine rule, but if Limits arenít going to come into play that often, why have them? In fact in general I think they are to high to really be relevant.
* I find it odd that inherent limits explicitly do not apply to attribute only tests (including initiative, defenses tests, lifting tests, composure tests, ect). I donít see the reason for this, as if limits are supposed to represent a limit to a characterís inherent ability, then surely they should also apply in these situations. They also donít apply to handful of other skill+attribute tests. Exceptions to a rule are problematic and hard to remember, the more universal the rules the better.
* In makes a fun archetype concept, Ďthe aged masterí less playable. Isnít the idea of an old Yoda/Mr. Miyagi type character who is lacking in physical attributes but makes up for it in his experience and skill? Such a character is limited because his vast skill it would be limited by his inherent limits.

Now thats not to say there isnít anything to like about the inherent limits, for one I like that the presence of essence in the social limit calculation makes something that was always supposed to be a factor in the fluff (the dehumanizing facet of cyberwear) represented in the rules. It is also nice that you just have 3 limits to recall instead of a plethora (though the presence of gear limits kind of invalidates this to an extent).

Mr. Miyagi vs Bubba the Elf
Consider the following scenario. Mr. Miyagi, a wise aged master squares off against Bubba the elf. Mr. Miyagi is older, and has so-so physical stats. But he is highly skilled and has 8 ranks in his physical skill.

Mr. Miyagi
STR 2 BDY 1 AGI 2 REA 1 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 8 Ė Physical Limit 2

Bubba the Elf
STR 4 BDY 3 AGI 8 REA 4 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 2 Ė Physical Limit 4
Bubba the elf has only rudimentary knowledge of the skill in question, but is in the prime of his life and has gotten himself jacked up with some mechanical augmentation.


Your example is not a good one. Your example puts a low skilled athelte vs a hih skilled nearly crippled old man. Those stats are the same as a person who is confined to a wheel chair. reaction 1 and body 1? Yea, hat guy can't fight off a cold, let alone win a fight. That elf has a supernatural agility that no human can get, unless he gets magic or cyber involved.

In fact, this example shows exactly why the limits work. Skills are cheaper on karma, and you can't dump stats and jack up skills and hope for an amazing roll.

Try that again.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Aug 3 2013, 04:41 PM) *
...

Mr. Miyagi
STR 2 BDY 1 AGI 2 REA 1 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 8 Ė Physical Limit 2

Bubba the Elf
STR 4 BDY 3 AGI 8 REA 4 Ė Agility Based Physical Skill 2 Ė Physical Limit 4
Bubba the elf has only rudimentary knowledge of the skill in question, but is in the prime of his life and has gotten himself jacked up with some mechanical augmentation.

...
Your Mr. Miyagi has the right Physical Limit. Your Bubba the Elf does not. The formula for Physical Limits (page 101) is [(Strength x 2) + Body + Reaction] / 3 (Round Up). The math says Bubba has a Physical Limit of 5, not 4.

And those stats for Mr. Miyagi aren't where they should be, especially if you're trying to emulate the Karate Kid character; more like Young Mr. Grace. Like WorkOver said, this is not a good example.
Isath
Agility does not contribute, to limits? That's hilariously stupid...

A 3 meter troll (having oversized arms and short legs) with some stealth is inherently stealthier, than a rather weak elf with top notch agility and good stealth skill... yeah...right.

I know, that they want to give some attribute more meaning this way... but that is just plain wrong.

Sadly this is not the only way limits are broken.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 3 2013, 07:59 PM) *
Agility does not contribute, to limits? That's hilariously stupid...


Not to justify it, but they did it so that Agility wasn't even more of an overburdened stat.
SpellBinder
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 3 2013, 06:09 PM) *
Not to justify it, but they did it so that Agility wasn't even more of an overburdened stat.
Compared to Logic, that counts twice for your Mental limit, has more skills than Agility (not counting the repetitive nature of the Exotics, Knowledge, & Language skills more than once for each type), and is the favored Attribute of deckers 'round for roughly 2/3 of the Matrix actions that require a skill test. nyahnyah.gif
WorkOver
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 3 2013, 07:59 PM) *
Agility does not contribute, to limits? That's hilariously stupid...

A 3 meter troll (having oversized arms and short legs) with some stealth is inherently stealthier, than a rather weak elf with top notch agility and good stealth skill... yeah...right.

I know, that they want to give some attribute more meaning this way... but that is just plain wrong.

Sadly this is not the only way limits are broken.


No he's not. He still has a low agility. He is inherently more physical. His limit may be higher, but hat doesn't mean he is more stealthy. His agility is still lower, and will get less hits.

More bad examples.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Aug 3 2013, 09:51 PM) *
Compared to Logic, that counts twice for your Mental limit, has more skills than Agility (not counting the repetitive nature of the Exotics, Knowledge, & Language skills more than once for each type), and is the favored Attribute of deckers 'round for roughly 2/3 of the Matrix actions that require a skill test. nyahnyah.gif



Not to say it is right or wrong, but almost all logic skills are tech skills. So while there are a lot of them unless that is your focus people felt free to dump stat it. Very few people dump stated agility, probably only mages.

I like the inherent limits. I wish all the limits were based on them and gear limits were modifiers and not set limits. Now I think agility should have been a factor and I think attributes should have contributed less to the pools because as is attributes are where its at. You might stack skills as a high priority in char gen but that is more due to how lame the karma system is with it over costing skills in comparison to attributes by a wide margin.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 4 2013, 12:17 AM) *
No he's not. He still has a low agility. He is inherently more physical. His limit may be higher, but hat doesn't mean he is more stealthy. His agility is still lower, and will get less hits.

More bad examples.


The basics are right though. There are a lot of numbers you can play with where a agility focused character with good skills gets capped at a point below where someone less skilled regularly hits. Especially given the priority system and the ease to really dump stat because with anything C or less priority in attributes getting to average is either impossible or uses all your points.
SpellBinder
Maybe the sum of all four Physical Attributes / 3 instead?
Isath
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 4 2013, 06:17 AM) *
No he's not. He still has a low agility. He is inherently more physical. His limit may be higher, but hat doesn't mean he is more stealthy. His agility is still lower, and will get less hits.

More bad examples.


both characters spen their stats equally and have a stealth skill of ... say: 5

The Elf:

Bod[ 2 ]
Agi[ 6 ]
Rea[ 2 ]
Str[ 2 ]

DP = 11
Limit = 3

The Troll:

Bod[ 6 ]
Agi[ 5 ]
Rea[ 2 ]
Str[ 6 ]

DP = 10
Limit = 7

So, yes the Troll is only slightly worse in his actual talent to sneak or hide an natrually bulkier and stronger, he will however seldomly ever be capped when sneaking, while the elf with 1 die more will not make mor than 3 success unless he uses edge. That makes the mountain of flesh, the better sneak (at least by numbers). Sure as the GM you can rule situational modifiers (and I likely would) but it is implied, that the troll would be the better sneak because of his bulk. If this is a bad example... well prove me wrong.

What I am saying is not, that limits are all bad of an idea, but their implementation is broken (and in more ways than this).
Larsine
QUOTE (MaxMahem @ Aug 4 2013, 01:41 AM) *
* The formula for calculating these limits is cumbersome, and not easy to calculate on the fly. One stat times two plus two other stats all divided by four. Itís not a convenient calculation to do in your head if your stats change for some reason. Itís not an easy formula to remember either.

It's divided by 3, not divided by 4.

QUOTE
They also donít apply to handful of other skill+attribute tests. Exceptions to a rule are problematic and hard to remember, the more universal the rules the better.

That is an error, and will hopefully be corrected in the errata.

Every time you use a skill, you also have a limit.

Defending (Reaction + Intuition) does not have a limit.
Parrying (Reaction + Intuition + Weapons Skill) does have a limit.
Smash
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 4 2013, 10:13 AM) *
Your example is not a good one. Your example puts a low skilled athelte vs a hih skilled nearly crippled old man. Those stats are the same as a person who is confined to a wheel chair. reaction 1 and body 1? Yea, hat guy can't fight off a cold, let alone win a fight. That elf has a supernatural agility that no human can get, unless he gets magic or cyber involved.

In fact, this example shows exactly why the limits work. Skills are cheaper on karma, and you can't dump stats and jack up skills and hope for an amazing roll.

Try that again.


Can't fault that.
Isath
QUOTE (Larsine @ Aug 4 2013, 10:55 AM) *
Parrying (Reaction + Intuition + Weapons Skill) does have a limit.


Making interrupt defense not very tempting in a good bunch of cases. To be fair though, there also are quite some good cases, especially when willing to go to the...egde.
WorkOver
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 4 2013, 03:05 AM) *
both characters spen their stats equally and have a stealth skill of ... say: 5

The Elf:

Bod[ 2 ]
Agi[ 6 ]
Rea[ 2 ]
Str[ 2 ]

DP = 11
Limit = 3

The Troll:

Bod[ 6 ]
Agi[ 5 ]
Rea[ 2 ]
Str[ 6 ]

DP = 10
Limit = 7

So, yes the Troll is only slightly worse in his actual talent to sneak or hide an natrually bulkier and stronger, he will however seldomly ever be capped when sneaking, while the elf with 1 die more will not make mor than 3 success unless he uses edge. That makes the mountain of flesh, the better sneak (at least by numbers). Sure as the GM you can rule situational modifiers (and I likely would) but it is implied, that the troll would be the better sneak because of his bulk. If this is a bad example... well prove me wrong.

What I am saying is not, that limits are all bad of an idea, but their implementation is broken (and in more ways than this).


And again, your example is a bad one. Stealth, in an abstract way, which is what this game is, and what these pools mean, requires more than being light on your feet. You have to REACT to opponents suddenly turning around so you can duck. You have to be STRONG to hold a still position until he turns back around, and you have to have the ENDURANCE to go slow and breathe properly to stay hidden.

Again, your elf is barely more agile than that very agile troll. That elf is weak, sickly, and has terrible reactions. As far as elves go, he is SLIGHTLY above average for an elf. That troll is the acrobat troll from a family full of acrobats.

The limits are fine.
Abschalten
I'm becoming a more acerbic critic of SR5 by the day.

That said, I think the formulas for the Inherent Limits are one of the few things it's done right. Excluding Agility from the Physical Limit calculation and doubling up on Strength means that Strength has much more value, aside from just being your base melee/unarmed damage. Of course, this touches the reason why I dislike the Accuracy Limits on weapons (nothing stops you from twinking Agility anyway and just using a gun's Accuracy + Smartlink to increase it.) But at the very least you'll be awesome with a gun, and crap at all the Physical skills surrounding your ability to use that gun.
CodeBreaker
So this might be a silly question, and it is slightly tangential. Where in the rulebook does it say that Stealth is limited by your physical limit? I cannot find a single instance of the test notation spelling out that you roll Stealth+Agility[Physical]. Is it just that any skill that is under the Physical skill umbrella is limited by your Physical limit? Or am I missing something? I haven't done a proper, thorough read through, only a glance at things that seem interesting, so I understand if I am just being a bit of a numpty.

Because the Using Stealth Skills part of the Skills section isn't helping at all.
Draco18s
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 4 2013, 10:12 AM) *
So this might be a silly question, and it is slightly tangential. Where in the rulebook does it say that Stealth is limited by your physical limit?


A lot of rolls are missing their limit notations.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 4 2013, 09:23 AM) *
A lot of rolls are missing their limit notations.


Likely because even the writers could not agree on what they meant. *shrug*
Draco18s
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 4 2013, 11:47 AM) *
Likely because even the writers could not agree on what they meant. *shrug*


But it's RAW that these rolls are unlimited! Just like dwarves lacking thermographic vission and trolls paying 50% more on everything!
</hyperbolic argument that has been made in the last week>
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 4 2013, 10:49 AM) *
But it's RAW that these rolls are unlimited! Just like dwarves lacking thermographic vission and trolls paying 50% more on everything!
</hyperbolic argument that has been made in the last week>


I know... *sigh* wobble.gif
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 4 2013, 04:49 PM) *
But it's RAW that these rolls are unlimited! Just like dwarves lacking thermographic vission and trolls paying 50% more on everything!
</hyperbolic argument that has been made in the last week>


So, to be clear, are limits supposed to be applied to the majority of tests? And they just forgot to use the proper layout for them? Because with the inconsistency in the book, and the lack of mention in the examples, makes it really difficult to tell.
Sendaz
Yes. Though remember tons of items have their own accuracy limit which overrides your normal attribute limits.
Draco18s
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 4 2013, 12:59 PM) *
So, to be clear, are limits supposed to be applied to the majority of tests? And they just forgot to use the proper layout for them? Because with the inconsistency in the book, and the lack of mention in the examples, makes it really difficult to tell.


And now you know why I don't own the book and won't until errata happens.
If then.
CodeBreaker
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 4 2013, 06:39 PM) *
And now you know why I don't own the book and won't until errata happens.
If then.


Yeah, that seems like a really, really big oversight. I can understand small things, like a rule mistake here and there, or not following a style guide for some contributors sections. But the prevalence of this particular mistake, and the importance that it has to the core of the system, seems to be a game breaker.

And I say that as someone who has done proofreading for other RPG companies, and has seen what comes out of writers before they go to the editor. How did something like that make it past proofing? Was it just that they were rushed for time?

Also, sorry for the derail.
Isath
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 4 2013, 04:03 PM) *
Again, your elf is barely more agile than that very agile troll. That elf is weak, sickly, and has terrible reactions. As far as elves go, he is SLIGHTLY above average for an elf. That troll is the acrobat troll from a family full of acrobats.

The limits are fine.


You may interpret it that way. Both are however, rather advanced, in stealth aswell as agility and sub average in all othe physical stats.

Limits are broken, I have yet to see a valid argument that they are not.
WorkOver
QUOTE (Isath @ Aug 4 2013, 02:51 PM) *
You may interpret it that way. Both are however, rather advanced, in stealth aswell as agility and sub average in all othe physical stats.

Limits are broken, I have yet to see a valid argument that they are not.


You can't prove a negative. You say broken, someone else says your examples are stupid, and prove why limits work.

You are thinking that a crippled human should hang in combat with an extremely good elf. Sorry. They should not. They haven't been able to since 3rd, when stats didn't matter. In 4th and 5th, stats matter. Period. They provide more than a dump stat, or a target number for a spell.

That system was broken. This one, it's fine.
Draco18s
QUOTE (WorkOver @ Aug 4 2013, 11:01 PM) *
You say broken, someone else says your examples are stupid, and prove why limits work.


I should probably pop in and say something like "Burden of Proof" to back up this statement.

But I'm not awake enough to want to explain what it means to people.
Sendaz
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Aug 5 2013, 08:05 AM) *
I should probably pop in and say something like "Burden of Proof" to back up this statement.

I prefer 'Bourbon of 130 Proof' for situations like this. biggrin.gif

because with all this debating, I probably need a stiff drink.
Isath

Burden of proof is not a onesided concept. It also would take something like a reasoned dicourse, which we did not (or could not) establish here.
As I have better things to do than to reason any further, with the prospect of arguments like: "nuh uh, stupid example", being the opposition, I'd rather opt in, for the burbon...
Jhaiisiin
With regards to limits, the implication and intent is that the apply to every Skill + Attribute test, be it a success test or an opposed test. The limit being used is the one that is linked to the attribute, or in the case of odd one-off situations, the one that makes the most sense. Like say a Agility + Automotive mechanic [Mental] when you're having to blindly search for something in the engine. You know what you're feeling for, but can't see it, so you're having to imagine what it looks like based on how it feels.

Otherwise, the limits are usually fairly obvious in which one should be used. What kind of test is it? Are you trying to physically accomplish something? Physical limit. Trying to think your way through something? Mental limit. Trying to talk your way past an obstacle or lead a group? Social limit.

It's really designed to be that simplistic.

Oh, and as to the whole Stealth + Agility not being listed as having a limit, you do realize that on page about success tests (p47 if I remember, AFB), there's an example that quite clearly shows the suggested limit, right?
Larsine
QUOTE (CodeBreaker @ Aug 4 2013, 08:41 PM) *
And I say that as someone who has done proofreading for other RPG companies, and has seen what comes out of writers before they go to the editor. How did something like that make it past proofing? Was it just that they were rushed for time?

Rushed? I sure didn't have enough time to do all the proofreading I would have liked to. I had to settle for some chapters and skip other chapters.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Larsine @ Aug 5 2013, 06:51 AM) *
Rushed? I sure didn't have enough time to do all the proofreading I would have liked to. I had to settle for some chapters and skip other chapters.


So..... Rushed it is then...
RHat
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 5 2013, 01:09 PM) *
So..... Rushed it is then...


Well, there is a space between "rushed" and "had all the time you wanted".
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (RHat @ Aug 5 2013, 03:59 PM) *
Well, there is a space between "rushed" and "had all the time you wanted".


Not when even the proofreaders are complaining that they did not have enough time. It was a rush job, meant to coincide with the convention season. It was rushed.
Falconer
I think many of you are missing the OP's point. One I largely agree with.

I would have rather seen a limit formula based on skill and linked attribute.

Say a limit of based on (skill/2 + attribute/4), min1. Attribute alone then generally wouldn't get more than 2 points but would add a lot of dice... but pure skill would count for a lot. But someone tossing 8 dice attribute + 1 rank in skill still is only looking at a limit of 2 then, but each rank of skill added will rapidly advance that up to higher levels.

Many people mistakenly state well 9 dice only needs a limit of 3... but this ignores that on 9 dice you will roll 4 or more hits fairly often... a limit of 4 will even get hit fairly often. 5 starts to get rare, but still isn't all that rare.


Attributes are badly overburdened and undercosted in SR4 and SR5 made it even worse.
RHat
... That's not a very good system. I get that you think Attributes have way too much associated with them, but just because they were significantly less important before doesn't mean that's the way that they should be. An increase in cost is appropriate, systems like you're suggesting are not.

Plus, that's WAY too many limits to have to worry about and recalculate for changes to this or that (imagine having to recalculate your skill limit every time you activated Qi Foci with Improved Ability stored).
Falconer
Yes because it's oh so hard to temporarily increase the limit by 1 for every 2 points of skill increase!

Kids and the education system today....

A very rare niche case... and a qi foci is rarely going to have more than 1 or 2 points of skill in it (0.25PP per point of force and with the new magic addiction limits... only up to 'Magic' in points of active foci without risking addiction.
RHat
It would slow the game down, pure and simple. As for Qi Foci, someone could have 2 or 3 bonded with the same Improve Ability, especially if they've got a skill high enough to make use of 4 or more ranks of it. Turning them on and off, and using that to shift your configuration of powers, appears to be a core part of the point of them.
MaxMahem
Well one of the advantage to basing the limits purely off of skills would be that skills in general much more static then attributes, which can very a lot due to a plethora of different powers (attribute boost, enhance attribute, decrease attribute). Recalculating the limits using the by the book formul is definetly a pain. Skills are much more static, so a limits based on them is a lot easier to manage, even if you have a lot more of them to calculate.
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