So, while thinking about the future supplements and the karmagen system, I was examining the priority table and the karma 'worth' of each level. Priority A Magic or Resonance gives you Magic/Resonance 6, 2 skills at Rating 5, and 10 spells or 5 Complex Forms. It is the difference in that last part that makes me scratch my head and wonder what the developers were thinking. The Magic side is worth 197 karma, while the Resonance side is only worth 167 karma. Why the gimp on the Technomancer side?

No real reason that I can see, honestly. Developer prejudice, I guess.

Given how strong TMs were in SR4, and the fact that at least one of the writers for the new matrix rules is a die-hard fan of Deckers, it stands to reason that they were nerfed as kneejerk reaction.

this is hardly the worst problem technomancers have.

but in any case, if i had to guess, it's probably simply a matter of how many complex forms there are vs how many spells there are. complex forms are more limited in number because there are fewer of them.

but really... if you've decided to be a technomancer, you've already made the decision to gimp yourself, and getting half as many complex forms as a mage gets spells is barely even noticeable compared to other problems.

Agreed.

I absolutely do not understand the hate-ons for Technomancers. And no one can seem to agree WHY they hate Technomancers; "They're too powerful!" "They're too weak!" "They dont fit!" and on and on ad nauseum.

I have no idea why the devs felt the need to whack Technomancers in the kneecap. I doubt it was intentional.

oh, i doubt they *planned* specifically to make technomancers suck.

but that doesn't much change the fact that they seem to have managed that. i can understand an overreaction to some extent... in SR4, technomancers were definitely very strong. sort of. they tended to either be bad at everything, or extremely powerful in the matrix combined with being extremely weak outside of it, depending on how you built them.

and i can certainly understand making it mechanically more appealing to be a decker, because deckers are supposed to also be able to go pure matrix focus and be awesome, but when you're never going to be as awesome as someone else with the same focus (at least, not in that area of focus), it's definitely a bit disappointing. and i can understand feeling like that needed to change, even if deckers would have had a niche (that of being a very good generalist).

but they went too far, and this isn't like an MMO where you can just buff and nerf things easily after release and the problem goes away. most likely, technomancers aren't going to get the kind of changes to make them work in any core book errata, and i suspect trying to do it with a splat book is likely to go horribly wrong.

but yeah, i don't think it was any sort of malicious plan to make technomancers suck. i think they just didn't stop to consider the costs involved, or just how badly hurt technomancers would be by the changes they made. i'm not sure they even stopped to ask themselves what sort of impact it would cause if they put high fading values on complex forms, or if they made programs extremely powerful and versatile but very expensive for technomancers to get, in combination with the fact that technomancers also can't easily get augmented, thus leaving them worse in the matrix and still worse outside of it.

i think they got it into their head that they would make deckers stronger, but make it so that theoretically technomancers would pull ahead in the long term... and then didn't consider how long that long term was. i mean, no question, if you add enough karma to the equation, the technomancer *will* pull ahead. and by the time it happens, who knows what the rest of the team will look like...

I honestly haven't looked into this but it seems to me that the primary problem is that while deckers can improve their decks and buy programs with their cash and their skills with karma, while technomancers have to improve both with karma.

Actually, that makes a valid point: What do technomancers have to spend their money on? No cyberware, no foci equivalent, decks are kinda pointless (why be a technomancer if you're going to use a deck?), odds on you don't have that many points to throw into being good with guns, drugs are pretty cheap... that leaves drones and vehicles. if you're not going the path of a rigger, then what do technomancers spend their money on?

Money has all kinds of uses, you just need to be creative. Having played several Technomancers, I can assure you that money has plenty of uses in the hands of a Technomancer.

Hell, just off-hand in one game I bought a rolling drone and attached a mortar to it. I fed it's targeting to a hand-held unit and mechanized the reloading process. Instant long-range artillery strike option though not cheap.

PAB units are also amazing.

Technomancers have literally nothing to spend money on to improve in their area in SR5 - out of chargen, they're not even CAPABLE of rigging.

Most of the issues with Technomancers appear to be due to the rules being written without consideration to how technomancers would be effected. Things like the ridiculous Fading codes, crazy sprite nerfs, and the massive loss of utility (see: inability to be part of a PAN or WAN or to slave any gear) seem intentional, and there's no real reason for it.

even technomancers focused purely on hacking can make use of money to progress just fine. remember, if you want to run an agent, you need to actually have a cyberdeck, and they don't get their own separate damage tracks so you need 1 cyberdeck per agent. now, granted, this may not boost your matrix presence as much as you might wish, but it certainly does give something to spend your money on if that's what you want.

Here's my 2Y on the subject of Technomancers, and it's a bit of a read, so bear with me.

DISCLAIMER: I’ve just read through the Matrix section once, and paid specific attention to Technomancers (my preferred archetype). So, I may not know what the deck I’m talking about, but these are my initial impressions.
VS. Deckers:

Starting Technomancers would almost always beat a starting decker out of the gate. Period. If built correctly, a “min/maxed” Techno would (barely) beat a “min/maxed” decker out of the box. Here’s why:

1) Stealth. A technomancer gains no OS for using CF’s. Resonance Spikes, Static Bombs (storm, sorry, no book with me), decrease attribute, etc… generate no additional Overwatch Score. Zip, zero, none. Now, that’s not to say that slamming a Resonance Spike at a persona would go unnoticed, to the contrary, I feel like the decker/spider would go, “WTF WAS THAT?!?!?!” and start making some SERIOUS matrix perception checks to find the source of the damage. BUT, the action itself didn’t cause an OS increase. That’s pretty damned handy. No CF causes OS. It might trigger an alert indirectly (like a spider going, “THE FUCK!?!?!” and popping some sniffers to help him find you) but the action itself CAN”T be detected by non technos. Pretty neat.

2) Sprites, Sprites, Sprites. Sprites are WAY more powerful than Agents, and even most IC. The benefit of using a Machine Sprite to do hacks using Diagnostics far exceeds any bonus the decker can get with software packages like “toolkit” or the like.

3) Cash rewards. While the decker will need to spend a LOT on equipment (like a 1,000,000Y deck) to get better, the technomancer doesn’t need to spend any. Instead of buying a 1mil deck to pan his team and slave for security, the technomancer would buy a simple comlink (metalink will do the trick), thread up his firewall via CF, set the device to slave whatever needs protecting, and then he’s done. In fact, using Increase Matrix Attribute: Firewall, the technomancer can THEORETICALLY increase the firewall rating by up to +18 (can thread 3x resonance). I’d never do that myself, I prefer my characters to live, but you can thread it that high. On average, I’d go for a +4-6 increase on my firewall rating leaving my metalink which costs almost nothing with a 9-12 firewall rating.

4) Lifestyle. Since the decker is spending a TON of money to upgrade his equipment and software (and paying for degrading software if those rules come over in the next matrix book) the Decker is living AT MOST Mid lifestyle, Most of the time it will be low. It’s like having a Razer gaming laptop, while living in the slums. A lot of GMs might take advantage of the “easy mark” who’s got an increadible setup in his cheap ass no security apartment. The Technomancer can spend all his cash on drones (post submersion), higher lifestyle which (once the matrix book and the lifestyle book comes out for custom lifestyles) will most likely give him HUGE bonuses to downtime actions. Combined with sprites helping out, he can see bonuses for a lot of runs up to the +15-20s. These will increase his limits most likely (resonance wells might for example do so) AND his thrown dice. The decker might see a total of 6-10 successes on a single throw in his home (depending on bonuses) the Technomancer can see twice that depending on the task.

5) Noise. The technomancer might have a slightly harder time here, but using the Resonance signal (name?) CF, a technomancer won’t see any noise from ANY distance whatsoever. A decker can drop noise count in general, but the technomancer can fix that with prodigious use of threading. Yeah, in a spam zone, the decker is better off, but the technomancer can take care of that quick enough.

6) On Rigging: Out the gate, the Technomancer is in EXACTLY the same shoes the Decker is in. they both need an RCC to rig, BUT, the technomancer can do it without the RCC once he’s submerged. The only way the decker gets the upper hand here, is that he can spend essence for cyberware and get a faster initiative from which to rig better. The technomancer can actually do a better job of it, with Sprites helping the drones, but they will act slower, no question (unless the technomancer sacrifices essence and resonance for cyber, OR spends immersion echos to go faster like we saw in Unwired).

7) Detection and reaction. Most of the time, when a decker gets noticed, he’ll need to fight (not always, but most of the time), the CFs of the technomancer allow him to quickly disappear from any persona who sees him, and must make a Matrix perception test again to find him. Furthermore, they must have a REASON to look for him again.

On the whole, a decker is REALLY good at busting through and kicking ass in the matrix, no doubt about it. The technomancer is MUCH more subtle. It’s the difference between a Street Sam Troll and a Physical Adept Ninja. Both get the job done, but on the whole, IMHO a ninja’s cooler. (ninja’s are always cooler).

Technomancers have…issues, yeah, they take more thought to use, you have to think about the hack a lot differently than with a decker. No question. But I ALMOST feel like they might have received a buff, at the cost of fading and out of the box no equipment needed rigging.

But then again, Mages are unhappy right now with the changes to drain, manabolt, spells in general, watchers, and other issues.

Street Sams are unhappy about the cost of cyber/bio (though I think the alpa-delta price changes makes up for it).

Face’s are unhappy that they can’t have too much cyber, or they’ll lose out on their dice pool limits on social tests.

I think the only group I’ve not heard complain about the way the game is now would be riggers, and they may even have gotten a slight nerf as well.

IDK, I want to get to play before I make a final judgment call, but from the Techno I made and the decker I made, the techno beat the decker 9/10 times in a hack and in combat. You just have to think a bit different.

The same could be said of mages. Aside from foci, there isn't much a magic user can do with money. That seems to be the dichotomy that exists for Karma intensive characters; you dont have as much of a use for money as mundanes. That said, I still maintain that a Technomancer can absolutely use money to his advantage in game.

Pollution, some of the new technomancer hate comes from what was taken from technomancers compared to what they could do in SR4. Previously a technomancer could be part of a PAN or WAN, could be the master of slave devices, and could jump into drones like a rigger without a special echo. Also a hacker and a technomancer could be equal at the start, and while a technomancer was more specialized to the matrix a hacker had other options to diversify that still left both archtypes playable in the long run.

Now, if a technomancer wants to be comparable to a decker at character creation you've gotta spend a priority to being a dwarf or an elf, can't dumpstat charisma like a decker can (meaning a higher priority to Attributes), and you're actually now more visible in the matrix. A living persona has an icon in the matrix at all times, just like every other wireless device (and at a -2 DP to matrix actions you can run silent; your Logic + Intuition against being spotted won't be as good as a good decker's deck if it's configured right). Previously a technomancer was not able to be spotted, and could still hide behind a slaved commlink to do their work; now they can't even do that.

And FuelDrop, they spend their money paying off bounty hunters.

Someone's got to pay for those astral bombing runs where you drop 25+ force worth of bound spirits on a target. 500 nuyen per force per binding attempt isn't cheap.

1) fading. it's quite significant. yes, you can use your complex forms without generating OS. but that resonance spike? you're probably looking at 3-4 points of damage; it's *net* hits, after all, so they still get a defense. furthermore, in order to get those net hits, it is likely that you were up against at *least* 9 dice on the defense, which means to get 3 net hits you need to use resonance spike at force 6. that's 6S fading every time you use it... should you need to go even a single point beyond that, you're eating 7P fading, which will add up fast; given that you probably will have multiple targets you need to worry about, and given that being subtle and also ineffective is a poor choice, and that the fading you're taking will hurt your dicepool (the matrix damage you deal will not until they're bricked), and that the real threat if you're making all kinds of matrix attacks is not OS, it's the host spawning infinite IC, eventually getting a mark on you, and violating you brutally (which also deals damage to your personal damage tracks rather than an electrical device which afaict you can repair for free, rather than needing several hours or even days of recovery time). decrease attribute is kinda nice, but again, it's net hits, and you're going to need to set the level of it fairly high to do anything at all. static bomb is even worse, with it's DV of level + 2, and you still have to get rid of marks first (and not get any more) anyways. incidentally, you can reset the OS on any device by rebooting. it takes all of 3 seconds. when it comes back online, it has no OS at all, as if you had never done anything.

2) a machine sprite doesn't have the hacking skill. how do you propose for it to hack something for you? in fact, none of the sprites have the complete set of skills necessary for hacking, although crack and fault sprites are fairly decent so long as you don't need cybercombat or electronic warfare, respectively. of course, i should point out that it's much harder to reset OS on a sprite, and your point number 1 does not apply to them when they do most things in the matrix (and they start with an OS score unless registered, although that's relatively unimportant given that you're far more likely to be limited by the score accumulating when you try to hack stuff than because of time, and in order to hack anything they do need to use the conventional method. without any programs, though. and again, it means you're taking fading, most likely, if you compile a decent rating sprite (or especially if you decide to try to take advantage of registering sprites, you're likely to take a lot of fading, which doesn't go away easily).

3) i've never really considered "no strong option for progressing through resource expenditure" to be a major selling point. deckers can advance with money and karma; technomancers can only advance from karma. and are likely actually starting off at a disadvantage.

4) so... the assumption is that medium lifestyle translates to living in the slums? and that somehow, having invested in hundreds of thousands of nuyen in hardware, the decker is just leaving it lying around in plain sight for thieves? really? probably the decker has that stuff with him (if not implanted), and even more probably, as with any shadowrunner, has invested in security.

5) oh goody. now in addition to all the other fading you're expecting to take every time you meet something, you also think it's a great deal to need to take fading for each individual device you wish to hack rather than taking advantage of the very inexpensive 3 points of noise reduction readily available to a hacker. realistically, this is pretty insignificant more often than not. noise is a mechanic designed to encourage you to get closer, not a punishment for deciding to be a hacker. unless you are literally running inside a spam zone of epic proportions, noise is most likely going to be a non-factor most of the time.

6) ok, technomancers do make better riggers than deckers do. except that they still need an RCC most likely. that hasn't changed. on the other hand, RCCs aren't nearly as expensive as decks anyways, so it's quite plausible for a technomancer to be able to afford one if they want. that said, they only become a better rigger once they actually submerge once or twice, and even then it's only because they can simultaneously be a rigger and a second-rate hacker at the same time. because in every other way, the decker would be better (no need to blow karma on submerging or resonance, can just spend directly on appropriate skills and attributes, and can afford to take all kinds of supporting augmentations without significant cost). when being a decker, the decker can be superior, and when being a rigger, the decker can be superior unless in a situation that also calls for hacking actions at the exact same time.

7) ummm... generally speaking "there was someone there a moment ago" is a reason to try to see them again, when it's frankly quite obvious you've just hidden yourself. which is beside the point, because if you need to hide from several enemies, your problem isn't hiding from them, it's removing the hailstorm of marks they've likely been putting on you.

almost anything technomancers can do, hackers can do better or 90% as well with 10% of the risk. the exceptions tend to be things that cause a *lot* of fading. i don't think you've really considered just how much fading you'll take from complex forms. for example, in order to boost your rating 6 commlink, you *must* use at least a level 6 complex form (which you also must sustain).

there are basically 2 things that technomancers are better at:

1) supporting someone else at being a hacker
2) being a rigger that can use hacking actions to defend his/her drones, after submerging at least once, probably a couple of times.

in the meanwhile, the technomancer suffers from the following:
- unable to progress meaningfully via resources.
- takes matrix damage as real life damage all the time.
- takes fading as damage that can only be healed by resting; no medkits, no magic.
- cannot use programs, which are incredibly versatile and powerful, without submerging.
- cannot exchange matrix attributes as needed ever.
- needs to split karma between improving resonance abilities and improving hacking abilities (ie skills)
- cannot take standard valuable augmentations including some that improve hacking abilities, such as the cerebral booster, without losing out on the few useful extras he gets that might have somewhat helped compensate for the rest of this list.
- generally speaking has extremely high fading values to deal with on a regular basis.

and all those things you talked about above, that the technomancer can do better... in generall, i can do just as well with a decker. without all those massive disadvantages i just pointed out.
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