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FuelDrop
Looking at technology verses magic, it seems to me that tech is getting the short end of the stick.

I'm not talking about characters, though that is part of it (Magicrun).

I'm talking about the cataclysmic disasters between editions. When you look at them (the crash and crash 2.0, the nanotech disaster, Deus, you get the picture) it always seems to be tech getting shafted by progress while magic struts happily on.

Now I'm not saying magic hasn't had its disasters (The great ghost dance, the universal brotherhood fiasco) but it feels that tech is being vilified while magic and its pets (IEs, Dragons) are disproportionately powerful.

I feel that the defining system in the cyberpunk genre shouldn't be so quick to sideline technology in favor of magic, especially as while magic is returning at a linear rate technology has always advanced exponentially.

Linear mages, Quadratic warriors!
Shortstraw
So just going to ignore the infected, blood, toxic and insect magic...
FuelDrop
QUOTE (Shortstraw @ Aug 12 2013, 03:24 PM) *
So just going to ignore the infected, blood, toxic and insect magic...

I did say that there have been magic stuff-ups. however, nothing on the scale of the tech fails that repeatedly kill hundreds of thousands/millions worldwide by frying their minds/turning their tattoos or even gene mods against them.
Rubic
QUOTE (FuelDrop @ Aug 12 2013, 03:28 AM) *
I did say that there have been magic stuff-ups. however, nothing on the scale of the tech fails that repeatedly kill hundreds of thousands/millions worldwide by frying their minds/turning their tattoos or even gene mods against them.

What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of Thor Shot bombardment.
thorya
Chicago- Hundreds of thousands people killed or displaced.
Asamando- To feed an entire nation of ghouls you have to assume that they're chewing through people at a pretty disastrous rate.

Magic just is less efficient at causing global melt downs than tech is, but it's still there making everyone's lives a little more miserable, one mind controlling mage or infected at a time. For most people in the shadowrun world, they need tech to survive and it improves their lives, while magic just makes everything worse for them (unless they get lucky and can use it). So magic should be more vilified.

But I see what you're saying. you think tech stagnates and is reset with disasters every edition while magic gets more powerful. To me it seems like most of the capabilities have stagnated (except for adding wireless) for both tech and magic. There haven't been any major breakthroughs in the past 20 years of the shadowrun world.
Slide
In the book "Find Your Own Power" Sam and Dodger have to foil a plot by the Spider spirits to take control of all the worlds nukes. It ends with the second ghost dance, and Howling Coyote disappearing again. biggrin.gif I guess that was tech and magical threats?
Wakshaani
There have been some "AstralQuakes" that shook things up, but they were quiet, by and large. The loss of chanelling astral energies through a focus, for example, implies the astral barriers that separate the worlds got thicker, while Unified Magic Theory landed about the same time that the spirit world transformed... previously, Shamans would conjure up spirits from a limited area (For example, a hearth spirit inside a house) that couldn't go outside that area. Now, they can summon anything, anywhere, which can then follow them about.

The tech transformations are easier to see, since everyone can use tech, but only 0.1% of the population can see astral foo. Stuff happens there and gets missed.
White Buffalo
Did you play the Tempo stuff? BADs are all about magic=kill the populous.
Chance359
the closest thing I think of to the nano-pocolypse would be when they tried to introduce imp that would jump into foci back in 3rd ed, haven't heard anything out of them since.
Voran
Honestly I'm still a little annoyed at the "Dragons still rule the world" stuff nyahnyah.gif
IKerensky
If you are annoyed about magic now, wait for it to go to full power... Creating lifeformes from thin air, putting cities into bottles... Things are just started, and when magic will combine with technologie then it will really be something.

Science and technologie exist to permit people to do things they cant do naturaly, magic is the antithesis of both because it remove the limits and make both of them redundant and useless.

Cyberpunk is not space opera, it is not about the triumph of technologie, it is about the downfall of man... A cyberpunk society isn t developping and successfull, she is grim, stagnant, moribund, dis-humanised. Magic trumping technologie add to the thème and prove once more that man wage on the wrong horse and that his choices will come back bitting his ass.

About Dragon ruling the Earth, I really think it is time for everyone in SR to realise how un-earthly inhuman they really are and that sharing Earth with something that consider you part cattle, part house pet, part next-snack cant finish well for meta-humanity.
Sendaz
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Aug 12 2013, 02:56 PM) *
If you are annoyed about magic now, wait for it to go to full power... Creating lifeformes from thin air, putting cities into bottles... Things are just started, and when magic will combine with technologie then it will really be something.

Science and technologie exist to permit people to do things they cant do naturaly, magic is the antithesis of both because it remove the limits and make both of them redundant and useless.
I would not say tech and science are made redundant and useless by magic. Anyone can pick up a gun and fire it, albeit to different degrees of accuracy, whereas only those born with the inate gift for magic can ever use a spell.

But part of the problem in the equation is the relative ease we have for magic in SR. And it is a tough balance to maintain in any game system. Make it too hard to advance to the good stuff and nobody will want to use magic, make it too easy and it will outstrip technology unless you go ubertech which becomes like onto magic itself. The Nanotech had that potential, but it was reigned in as it will take time to find ways to incorporate it without going Clarke's Law on everyone.

QUOTE
Cyberpunk is not space opera, it is not about the triumph of technologie, it is about the downfall of man... A cyberpunk society isn t developping and successfull, she is grim, stagnant, moribund, dis-humanised. Magic trumping technologie add to the thème and prove once more that man wage on the wrong horse and that his choices will come back bitting his ass.
That would be a good definition of Dark Cyberpunk, and yeah SR can seem that way, especially with recent events. But it's in that face of adversity that we can shine, even if only briefly. The reward is in the struggle along the way, not necessarily the end of that journey.

QUOTE
About Dragon ruling the Earth, I really think it is time for everyone in SR to realise how un-earthly inhuman they really are and that sharing Earth with something that consider you part cattle, part house pet, part next-snack cant finish well for meta-humanity.

Well they ARE Inhuman, though I would not necessarily go on about the unearthly.

(metahu)Man likes to think in his own terms and tries to apply his own thought processes to everything around him, but Dragons and most sapient critters for that matter are NOT human and do not necessarily follow our own ways of thinking. This is nothing new and most of these same beings readily admit it, it's just we as metahumanity chose to ignore it and try to paint a pretty human face to it then wonder why they do things that don't meet that image we conceived of.

And there will be a conflict between man and dragon eventually, but do not count the monkey boys out just yet. wink.gif
Umidori
To be honest, humans are in a far better position to take on dragons than they were in any previous age. Compared to the times of Earthdawn, metahuman populations are unbelieveably larger and their technology is the most advanced it's ever been. If it came down to a fight, species to species, humanity could potentially wipe dragons off the face of the earth, even if at a substantial cost.

That said, while the dragons are clearly not "benevolent", they do at least work to combat extra-planar threats such as Insect Spirits and the Horrors. Without dragon intervention, the Universal Brotherhood might have become powerful enough to assimilate the entire human race. It's in the best interests of the dragons to at least guide and manipulate humans in ways so that they don't get wiped out, even if only so they can be kept as a convenient resource for the dragons.

~Umi
IKerensky
I didn t recall dragons doing a major part against Invae... But I could be easily corrected.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced the Dragons are going to be a major problem, sooner than their astral cousin from the netherworld.

Dragon have no interest at all having humanity survive the next Scourge unscathed. In fact Immortals Elfs are far more than dragons are responsible for the meta-humanity surviving in such a good shape last time. I think the dragons greatly oversight human population growth rate and technological advance. They let a global population of about what ? 60 millions peoples ? Perhaps even less than 20 millions, basically just out of Bronze age. They go to nap and wake up in a 5 billions humans world with technologie to do things Dragons cant even do... And unpreceding firepower. They need to take action in order to severily cut on that number.

Both species are in direct conflict about Earth control, and the fact is, they wont need each other to survive next time. There is no long term modus vivandi possible, they are too strong for that,,, and they have long memories. They remember when they were supreme overlords and meta-humans were their slaves and cattle, they remember the revolt of their servants, they know they need to act in order to retain/regain their supremacy. And time wont play for them as the more time pass, the stronger the humanity become.

I am unsure that the chain of events that started about the time of awakening and that massively reduce Earth population were tottaly accidental. I found also immensely suspect the way some Dragons behave so genuily pro-humans, especially If you consider the acts of the same dragons during previous Age. It looks too much like "Bad Cop, Good Cop".
Umidori
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Aug 12 2013, 04:20 PM) *
They remember when they were supreme overlords and meta-humans were their slaves and cattle, they remember the revolt of their servants, they know they need to act in order to retain/regain their supremacy. And time wont play for them as the more time pass, the stronger the humanity become.

Supreme overlords? Metahumans as their slaves and cattle?

So... kinda like the Corporate system? nyahnyah.gif

Dragons don't need to regain their supremacy. They already have it. All they need to do is solidify their positions as the string-pullers behind the scenes. Why try to resurrect their old system of directly lording over metahumans when they can simply do it secretly by subverting the very structures the metahumans use to control themselves?

If/when a violent revolt comes, it won't be aimed at the dragons, it will be aimed at the corporations - and those are disposable, in a sense. Topple one, another one takes its place. Topple the Big Ten, and a different ten become big. Meanwhile, the long-lived, scheming, immensely magically powerful, immeasureably wealthy, human-form taking Great Dragons like Lofwyr can just keep manipulating things from the shadows, shifting their influence from one corporation or body of power to the next, always one step ahead, never being directly challenged.

~Umi
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